Do you want to discuss boring politics? (24 Viewers)

[rob9872]

Controversial, but perhaps it's time for the world to actually back off? This has now been going for about 100 years and no end in sight. Maybe if we all stopped medaling, cut off all the supplies on both sides of help, arms and trade they might sort it themselves eventually. Offer food and aid only. There would be a lot more deaths initially it would be horrible to be there, but this will keep going whilst fuel is sprinkled and there will still be people dying in another 100 years. I know I'll be alone in this thinking as it's not very humanitarian, but I don't see a solution.

 

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[mmttww]

Maybe if we all stopped medaling, cut off all the supplies on both sides of help, arms and trade they might sort it themselves eventually.

I'm not sh*tting on your POV as I get it, but for me, if religion is involved, it'll never stop. If someone's argument amounts to 'floaty man in space says it's our land!' then humane thinking and perspective ain't likely to win out.

 

[rob9872]

I'm not sh*tting on your POV as I get it, but for me, if religion is involved, it'll never stop. If someone's argument amounts to 'floaty man in space says it's our land!' then humane thinking and perspective ain't likely to win out.

I agree although my only counter to that would be that once our army left NI it improved (Mo Mowlam of course helped). The Catholics and Protestants still might not like eachother, but our presence made it worse, both probably fed up of unnecessary dying and I hope peace continues. Appreciate it's still could go off at any time, but most people on both sides wanted peace and I'd bet that's true of most people in Israel who are urged on by leaders. If they can call it quits, amybe the next generation can learn to live with one another and just call the same land by different names (Derry // Londonderry).

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I agree although my only counter to that would be that once our army left NI it improved (Mo Mowlam of course helped). The Catholics and Protestants still might not like eachother, but our presence made it worse, both probably fed up of unnecessary dying and I hope peace continues. Appreciate it's still could go off at any time, but most people on both sides wanted peace and I'd bet that's true of most people in Israel who are urged on by leaders. If they can call it quits, amybe the next generation can learn to live with one another and just call the same land by different names (Derry // Londonderry).

Peace in NI was still brokered by the British and Irish governments persuading both sides to make big concessions. The Irish side accepting NI’s place in the union, the unionist side accepting that there’s a legal pathway to a united Ireland.

In an ideal world you could apply this to Palestine, in getting Israel to recognise the Palestinian state, while Hamas is decommissioned, things like the tunnels are destroyed and they recognise Israel as a state also. The problem is that the vast majority of Israel sees the land as entirely theirs because a desert book says so.

 

[PVA]

So this new teenage Reform council leader then...

"Finch said he had been inspired by Reform and former Conservative MP Lee Anderson"

Christ almighty

 

[shmmeee]

When the definition of a law is being stretched for political ends, that's cause for concern. If you read through the list of 81 organisations, PA is a massive outlier. Criminals? No argument. Terrorists? Bullsh*t.

As I keep saying I can’t think of another direct action group that does this level of property damage in the millions of pounds and escalating. Those mentioned like GP and XR haven’t done anything on this scale.

I could agree on a law change but what then? You blow up Big Ben in the name of global Jihad and it’s fine if no one is hurt?

 

[mmttww]

As I keep saying I can’t think of another direct action group that does this level of property damage in the millions of pounds and escalating. Those mentioned like GP and XR haven’t done anything on this scale.

You could argue some of JSO's motorway and road blocking actions caused disruption you could quantity into millions but it's not about keeping score for me.

It's that PA's listing feels politicised, not a 'this lot threaten national security' or 'supporting them is supporting horrible sh*t' decision. Doesn't feel right.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

So this new teenage Reform council leader then...

"Finch said he had been inspired by Reform and former Conservative MP Lee Anderson"

Christ almighty

Good luck to him, if the majority on here are upset about him then he’s obviously doing something right

 

[fernandopartridge]

 

[chiefdave]

You could argue some of JSO's motorway and road blocking actions caused disruption you could quantity into millions but it's not about keeping score for me.

It's that the listing of PA seems politicised rather than a 'this lot threaten national security' or 'supporting them is supporting horrible sh*t' decision. Doesn't feel right.

I think there's actually two issues. One is the issue of if PA needs to be a proscribed organisation for them to punished for their actions. My personal opinion is that it does not need to be but I appreciate others will have a different view.

The other issue is how this is being enforced. There's a lot of 'but its the law' posts on this thread but its not how the law has been applied previously.

This raises the question of why PA protesters are being clamped down on harder than, for example, people near parliament displaying IS flags. The Met's response to that was. "Wearing, carrying or displaying of an emblem or flag, by itself, is not an offence unless the way in which, or the circumstance in which, the emblem is worn, carried or displayed is such as to cause reasonable suspicion that the person is a supporter or member of a proscribed organisation. While support of and membership of [IS] is unlawful it is not a criminal offence to advocate the creation of an independent state."

There's also case law which shows that when trying to achieve a conviction the prosecutor is required to demonstrate that there has been an intention to commit a terrorist act and / or an attempt to persuade others to commit a terrorist act or join a terrorist organisation. So it seems there is zero chance of obtaining a conviction, as shown by the fact that out of the hundreds of PA protesters arrested none appear to have been charged.

If you look at the history of people arrested and charged it seems to be people who were found with weapons, planning an attack etc. Struggling to find many examples of other groups being treated similarly to PA.

 

[Grendel]

So this new teenage Reform council leader then...

"Finch said he had been inspired by Reform and former Conservative MP Lee Anderson"

Christ almighty

You seem obsessed with him. How many councillors other than Mucas and Mutton chops have had so much publicity on here.

 

[PVA]

You seem obsessed with him. How many councillors other than Mucas and Mutton chops have had so much publicity on here.

Do I?

A handful of posts ≠ obsession.

You have made over 120 posts about Mutton, so by your own logic you must be so utterly obsessed by him you spend your life thinking of nothing else.

What a strange accusation.

 

[Grendel]

Do I?

A handful of posts ≠ obsession.

You have made over 120 posts about Mutton, so by your own logic you must be so utterly obsessed by him you spend your life thinking of nothing else.

What a strange accusation.

Mutton was associated with trying to wreck the football club along with Lucas, Fletcher etc.

 

[PVA]

Thanks Poirot.

 

[shmmeee]

So this new teenage Reform council leader then...

"Finch said he had been inspired by Reform and former Conservative MP Lee Anderson"

Christ almighty

Explains why he’s thick as pig shit then.

You could argue some of JSO's motorway and road blocking actions caused disruption you could quantity into millions but it's not about keeping score for me.

It's that PA's listing feels politicised, not a 'this lot threaten national security' or 'supporting them is supporting horrible sh*t' decision. Doesn't feel right.

The law is “property damage” from what I can see neither JSO nor XR broke £500k, though I’ve not idea if there’s a legal limit that makes it “serious property damage” £7m is on another planet. You’re also interfering with the defence of the UK, so if a govt lawyer wanted could argue the harms could be incalculable.

Same Q though, I can buy removing property damage or setting the bar differently, but would we be happy with Islamic terrorists not being charged just because they only destroyed millions?

I dunno, I’m not sure there’s a way to square it that leaves terror laws intact and allows extreme direct action. Personally I’d be happy to rip the terror laws up, but I don’t have the British press at my door and aren’t responsible for the safety of the UK.

 

[mmttww]

would we be happy with Islamic terrorists not being charged just because they only destroyed millions?

Like I said, I'm not keeping £score, and like you said, there's no threshold for value of damage etc. in the definition. Issue for me is what the list is there to do.

If it's to protect us from the possible consequences of supporting an organisation, I'm not sure supporting PA poses a risk to the public, so why list them?

 

[shmmeee]

Like I said, I'm not keeping £score, and like you said, there's no threshold for value of damage etc. in the definition. Issue for me is what the list is there to do.

If it's to protect us from the possible consequences of supporting an organisation, I'm not sure showing support for PA poses a risk to the public, so why list them?

This is the conundrum with terror laws. On its face JSO smashing some windows and the ULEZ losers with their angle grinders and ISIS demolishing say a Winston Churchill statue or whatever, are all attempts to use property damage to change the govts policy. You can’t have a law that says “hey using violence to change govt policy is fine if it’s these causes”

The intention is to prevent groups from trying to bypass democracy.

I think where that line is is an interesting Q. Plenty on here (not me) thought any direct action should be illegal. But I find it hard to say what’s acceptable damage for a political cause and what’s not. We all think our cause is just and urgent.

 

[chiefdave]

£7m is on another planet

The £7m does seem very much pick a number and hope for the best. There's a reluctance to give any detail on how the figure was arrived at but it seems to include things like the cost of improving air base security to prevent similar future incidents.

Not sure about anyone else but my feeling is our air bases should already have had sufficient security to prevent people wandering in and damaging planes.

Hard to establish what damage has actually been done from news reports. One report states that just the paint damage will require total engine replacement at a cost of £25m.

Again I'd be slightly concerned if our armed forces can be brought to their knees with a pot of paint.

 

[PVA]

The £7m does seem very much pick a number and hope for the best. There's a reluctance to give any detail on how the figure was arrived at but it seems to include things like the cost of improving air base security to prevent similar future incidents.

Not sure about anyone else but my feeling is our air bases should already have had sufficient security to prevent people wandering in and damaging planes.

Hard to establish what damage has actually been done from news reports. One report states that just the paint damage will require total engine replacement at a cost of £25m.

Again I'd be slightly concerned if our armed forces can be brought to their knees with a pot of paint.

The group claimed they also used crowbars to cause damage.

But obviously with an airplane engine you can't fuck about, if there is even the remotest possibility of any damage or impairment then it's going to need thorough repairs and possibly replacement.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Good luck to him, if the majority on here are upset about him then he’s obviously doing something right

I only see goodwill to him Dominic. Extraordinarily gifted young man.

 

[chiefdave]

The group claimed they also used crowbars to cause damage.

But obviously with an airplane engine you can't fuck about, if there is even the remotest possibility of any damage or impairment then it's going to need thorough repairs and possibly replacement.

They did but the report I was referring to specifically stated the damage to the engine was cause by paint and paint alone and that would necessitate total replacement. Expect to see the Taliban in B&Q this weekend stocking up.

We'd be fucked if there's every a war where there's some birds flying around.

 

[Nick]

Are people still trying to justify things because it's got a fashionable cause?

 

[Grendel]

Are people still trying to justify things because it's got a fashionable cause?

Of course

 

[wingy]

They did but the report I was referring to specifically stated the damage to the engine was cause by paint and paint alone and that would necessitate total replacement. Expect to see the Taliban in B&Q this weekend stocking up.

We'd be fucked if there's every a war where there's some birds flying around.

Just apply the relevant solvent and it's off I think?

 

[duffer]

Attacking the UK military, whatever the cause, concerns the UK govt far more than the actions of a sovereign state. I’ve not said it’s a vote winner, but your argument comes down to “come on let’s not apply the law to people we like”

No it doesn't. My argument is about whether classing Palestinian Action (or any non-violent group) as terrorists is proportional and reasonable.

I'm all for the law being properly applied, but in proportion to the offence.

You're still going on about whether people like them or not or whether the letter of the terrorism act applies.

That's completely missing the point. By classing PA as terrorists, the Government has now opened the door to the farcical situation where someone has been arrested for holding up a cartoon published in Private Eye.

Does that sound a little authoritarian to you, or is it OK because it's Labour policy and therefore deserves uncritical support?

Ian Hislop calls arrest of man holding Private Eye cartoon at Gaza protest ‘mind-boggling’

Jon Farley arrested under Terrorism Act at Leeds demonstration for holding sign making joke about Palestine Action ban

www.theguardian.com

 

[shmmeee]

No it doesn't. My argument is about whether classing Palestinian Action (or any non-violent group) as terrorists is proportional and reasonable.

I'm all for the law being properly applied, but in proportion to the offence.

You're still going on about whether people like them or not or whether the letter of the terrorism act applies.

That's completely missing the point. By classing PA as terrorists, the Government has now opened the door to the farcical situation where someone has been arrested for holding up a cartoon published in Private Eye.

Does that sound a little authoritarian to you, or is it OK because it's Labour policy and therefore deserves uncritical support?

Ian Hislop calls arrest of man holding Private Eye cartoon at Gaza protest ‘mind-boggling’

Jon Farley arrested under Terrorism Act at Leeds demonstration for holding sign making joke about Palestine Action ban

www.theguardian.com

I think that’s clearly a misapplication of the law and hope and expect the person to have charges dropped or win their case. That cartoon clearly isn’t showing support.

However, would you be just as OK with all this applied to a cause you really don’t like?

And again, there’s charges of battery by assault outstanding, they smashed windows with people inside, they ram raided buildings, they threw smoke bombs at evacuating staff. At what point does “not touching can’t get mad” become govt policy?

Would we be OK if a group burned down an asylum hotel as long as no one technically got injured and they said they weren’t trying to injure anyone?

Are the ULEZ direct actions valid?

 

[Ian1779]

Are people still trying to justify things because it's got a fashionable cause?

Which is ironic from you, as you think being the greatest fence sitter ever makes you edgy and of original thought…..

 

[Nick]

Which is ironic from you, as you think being the greatest fence sitter ever makes you edgy and of original thought…..

It is funny somebody is a fence sitter because they won't say what you want them to

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Explains why he’s thick as pig shit then.

Oh yeah because you know him don’t you, good way to describe yourself though

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Which is ironic from you, as you think being the greatest fence sitter ever makes you edgy and of original thought…..

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Oh yeah because you know him don’t you, good way to describe yourself though

I'm really looking forward to seeing what he can do, personally.

 

[Nick]

I'm really looking forward to seeing what he can do, personally.

He needs to make Nuneaton great again. Get rid of the gyms and open up millennium.

Bring back cut price vk drinks.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

He needs to make Nuneaton great again. Get rid of the gyms and open up millennium.

Bring back cut price vk drinks.

The outgoing council leader said that Finch had proven his capability in both life and politics.

I see no reason for him not to have told the truth there. First order of business needs to be to build a wall on the border with Leicestershire to keep the illegals out.

Make Gary Lineker pay for it too.

 

[mmttww]

because it's got a fashionable cause?

Fashionable cause, amirite? You talk some sh*te.

 

[chiefdave]

View attachment 44736

Fashionable cause, amirite? You talk some sh*te.

Saw some horrific footage today of a father queueing for aid for his family just dropping down dead in the queue. I don't know how people can not be impacted by this kind of thing and just brush it off and move on with their day.