Do you want to discuss boring politics? (47 Viewers)

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
It's not going to happen until the cost of living is addressed and sustainably, that means housing and energy as a minimum. Labour seems too frightened to do what is needed.

Let’s see how planning shakes out. On energy they’re certainly doing a lot. A big reason behind the current reform freak out is by 2029 well have broken the back of most of it.

On CoL, we’re not a particular outlier in that really. Birth rate really is a function of wealth and women’s education and neither of those want turning back.

Houses in the south east are expensive, but comparatively food is cheap for example compared to similar nations. Energy is a bit of an issue but that’s not fixed in a year



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shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Also “it’s cost of living” needs to explain why lower income people have more kids on average than higher income.
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
needs to explain why lower income people have more kids on average than higher income.

Having sex is free, level of education on the subject isn't there, might be what they see around them growing up. Lots of reasons and I think you know that. Odd position to be taking. Don't get it.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
If everyone would just start fucking a lot of this would work itself out.
Apart from all the stuff that would get a lot worse.

More space and resources needed for housing, food, work, energy and infrastructure resulting in increased conflict over land and resources. Then the cost of protecting/repairing all this from the storms, floods and other climate problems it would lead to.
 

Nick

Administrator
If everyone would just start fucking a lot of this would work itself out.

People probably aren't keen on just firing kids out if they can't afford to give them a good life or a house big enough for them all.

It's alright if people are ok with letting everybody else pay for them and the council to find them a 7 bedroom house.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Having sex is free, level of education on the subject isn't there, might be what they see around them growing up. Lots of reasons and I think you know that. Odd position to be taking. Don't get it.

The position is that the evidence doesn’t support cost as a reason people don’t have kids on aggregate. Countries like SK and Hungary that have thrown cash at parents have seen zero reversal in decline. Every country that gets rich the birth rate plummets.

I find the answers pretty condescending TBH. The economically rational choice for someone in poverty is to have children, partly for financial and housing support but far more relevant is in the long term more kids means more people to support you in your old age. The idea they’re just too stupid to know better is a nonsense. I’ve known several teenage mums and dads and they all knew exactly whether they want to keep their kids or not and the tradeoffs involved. religion rarely came into it.

It was objectively harder to raise kids a hundred years ago on every measure yet birth rates were way higher.

In developed nations they started dropping with the introduction of the pill. Which implies it was choice to stop because the economy didn’t suddenly turn at that point.
 
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Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
The position is that the evidence doesn’t support cost as a reason people don’t have kids on aggregate. Countries like SK and Hungary that have thrown cash at parents have seen zero reversal in decline. Every country that gets rich the birth rate plummets.

I find the answers pretty condescending TBH. The economically rational choice for someone in poverty is to have children, partly for financial and housing support but far more relevant is in the long term more kids means more people to support you in your old age. The idea they’re just too stupid to know better is a nonsense. I’ve known several teenage mums and dads and they all knew exactly whether they want to keep their kids or not and the tradeoffs involved. religion rarely came into it.

It was objectively harder to raise kids a hundred years ago on every measure yet birth rates were way higher.

In developed nations they started dropping with the introduction of the pill. Which implies it was choice to stop because the economy didn’t suddenly turn at that point.
People generally are waiting until they're older to have children than before. Anyone I know who's had kids has had the first one in their 30s, whereas their parents had them in their mid-late 20s.

Perhaps that's wanting to 'do' more stuff before having your first child, but I can't shake thinking that economics/working arrangements are the bigger kicker.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
People generally are waiting until they're older to have children than before. Anyone I know who's had kids has had the first one in their 30s, whereas their parents had them in their mid-late 20s.

Perhaps that's wanting to 'do' more stuff before having your first child, but I can't shake thinking that economics/working arrangements are the bigger kicker.

It’s worldwide. Some of the countries like Poland have seen huge increases in living standards. Working arrangements now may be worse than ten or even fifty years ago but are light years ahead of before that.

I don’t even think it’s wanting to do more as much as expecting a certain standard of living two incomes provides and seeing any drop even temporary as poverty, plus for women especially it’s a huge career hit and women tend to be more likely to have a career they care about considering they’ve been kicking out ass at school and uni for a generation.

I know a lot who left it late then couldn’t, that I’ve seen more than people saying they couldn’t afford it. The better educated all seem to leave it later definitely. But again when you’re talking about trends across society showing lower incomes have more kids and across the world showing poorer countries have more kids it’s hard to argue for localised effects.

South Korea is proper fucked and has been throwing cash at people to no avail. I think their working culture is probably to blame for them being an outlier, a lot of women seem to just be more picky too and less likely to settle down with a guy who doesn’t pull his weight. So you need to make it a better deal for working parents especially women 100%

I honestly believe if the majority of people had a kid they’d wonder why they ever worried about managing, but equally you’ve got to make it clear to them so they can see themselves as parents and you’ve got to enable stuff like WFH and job share that allows people to parent and work.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
People generally are waiting until they're older to have children than before. Anyone I know who's had kids has had the first one in their 30s, whereas their parents had them in their mid-late 20s.

Perhaps that's wanting to 'do' more stuff before having your first child, but I can't shake thinking that economics/working arrangements are the bigger kicker.

It’s worldwide. Some of the countries like Poland have seen huge increases in living standards. Working arrangements now may be worse than ten or even fifty years ago but are light years ahead of before that.

I don’t even think it’s wanting to do more as much as expecting a certain standard of living two incomes provides and seeing any drop even temporary as poverty, plus for women especially it’s a huge career hit and women tend to be more likely to have a career they care about considering they’ve been kicking out ass at school and uni for a generation.

I know a lot who left it late then couldn’t, that I’ve seen more than people saying they couldn’t afford it. The better educated all seem to leave it later definitely. But again when you’re talking about trends across society showing lower incomes have more kids and across the world showing poorer countries have more kids it’s hard to argue for localised effects.

South Korea is proper fucked and has been throwing cash at people to no avail. I think their working culture is probably to blame for them being an outlier, a lot of women seem to just be more picky too and less likely to settle down with a guy who doesn’t pull his weight. So you need to make it a better deal for working parents especially women 100%

I honestly believe if the majority of people had a kid they’d wonder why they ever worried about managing, but equally you’ve got to make it clear to them so they can see themselves as parents and you’ve got to enable stuff like WFH and job share that allows people to parent and work. But ultimately no one has really managed this.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
It’s worldwide. Some of the countries like Poland have seen huge increases in living standards. Working arrangements now may be worse than ten or even fifty years ago but are light years ahead of before that.

I don’t even think it’s wanting to do more as much as expecting a certain standard of living two incomes provides and seeing any drop even temporary as poverty, plus for women especially it’s a huge career hit and women tend to be more likely to have a career they care about considering they’ve been kicking out ass at school and uni for a generation.

I know a lot who left it late then couldn’t, that I’ve seen more than people saying they couldn’t afford it. The better educated all seem to leave it later definitely. But again when you’re talking about trends across society showing lower incomes have more kids and across the world showing poorer countries have more kids it’s hard to argue for localised effects.

South Korea is proper fucked and has been throwing cash at people to no avail. I think their working culture is probably to blame for them being an outlier, a lot of women seem to just be more picky too and less likely to settle down with a guy who doesn’t pull his weight. So you need to make it a better deal for working parents especially women 100%

I honestly believe if the majority of people had a kid they’d wonder why they ever worried about managing, but equally you’ve got to make it clear to them so they can see themselves as parents and you’ve got to enable stuff like WFH and job share that allows people to parent and work.
I get that my circumstances may be an outlier, but as my stipend is sub-minimum wage, Mrs BSB is the bigger earner and we're going to get really hit when it comes to junior needing childcare. Probably have to burn through our combined savings and hope I can finish this doctorate on time.
 

PVA

Well-Known Member
I don't see it making much if any difference either but it will be interesting to see what the parties look to offer younger people now rather than vague claims about making it easier to get on the property ladder.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
I get that my circumstances may be an outlier, but as my stipend is sub-minimum wage, Mrs BSB is the bigger earner and we're going to get really hit when it comes to junior needing childcare. Probably have to burn through our combined savings and hope I can finish this doctorate on time.

I was SAHD during my masters and working part time and it was hard and I was lucky I could lean on parents I get that. You get tax credits, you get CB, but moreover you get a kid and they’re fucking awesome and everything else matters a little less. I found myself getting pay rises “because you’ve got a family now”, people chip in to help.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
I was SAHD during my masters and working part time and it was hard and I was lucky I could lean on parents I get that. You get tax credits, you get CB, but moreover you get a kid and they’re fucking awesome and everything else matters a little less. I found myself getting pay rises “because you’ve got a family now”, people chip in to help.
I’m a postgrad student. No tax credits, no pay rise.

But if I were unemployed I’d get childcare support. Make it make sense.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
I’m a postgrad student. No tax credits, no pay rise.

But if I were unemployed I’d get childcare support. Make it make sense.

im not going to argue that you don’t deserve a significant pay rise. I hope it works out for you man. Life can feel very different in a short time, divorce and a few others things have taught me that. For better or worse it’s rarely permanent.
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
I find the answers pretty condescending...

It's not condescending to point out that levels of literacy and how informed people tend to be is influenced by their economic situation. Our tendency to ape what we grow up around isn't a hot take.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
It's not condescending to point out that levels of literacy and how informed people tend to be is influenced by their economic situation. Our tendency to ape what we grow up around isn't a hot take.

Right. We’re so smart not having kids. Real genius. Levels of literacy!

Mate the two teenage mums I know could probably read you into a cocked hat. Both were on their way to uni. People like you convinced them that was a stupid dream for someone like them and they were better off as a mum. Neither regret that decision and have done education later in life.

Tendency to ape what we grow up around!

Please for your own sake leave your house and meet some poor people. These are people living in a developed country.
 
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shmmeee

Well-Known Member

Im not the one who made the argument the longer you have to live the more right you have to vote.

Every argument for votes at 16 makes as much sense as votes at 15 or 12 or 5.

Considering the grooming gang report I don’t think moves to treat 16 year olds as adults is wise tbh. I’d rather we move the other way and start remembering they’re children.
 

Nick

Administrator
Right. We’re so smart not having kids. Real genius. Levels of literacy!

Mate the two teenage mums I know could probably read you into a cocked hat. Both were on their way to uni. People like you convinced them that was a stupid dream for someone like them and they were better off as a mum. Neither regret that decision and have done education later in life.

Tendency to ape what we grow up around!

Please for your own sake leave your house and meet some poor people. These are people living in a developed country.
So they planned / chose to be teenage mums because somebody told them uni was just a dream? 😱
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
So they planned / chose to be teenage mums because somebody told them uni was just a dream? 😱

One of them was repeatedly raped as a kid and was convinced she could never have kids so when she caught at 15 was never going to give it up.

The other sat with me over a period of weeks trying to decide what to do and ended up coming down on keeping the baby because she couldn’t countenance abortion.

In both cases they were debating “what am I giving up” and thought I told them could have gone to uni (and both ended up doing access courses eventually) they didn’t believe it was for them as they were the first in their family and their family was telling them it was a stupid dream.

Haha stupid povvos
 
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Nick

Administrator
One of them was repeatedly raped as a kid and was convinced she could never have kids so when she caught at 15 was never going to give it up.

The other sat with me over a period of weeks trying to decide what to do and ended up coming down on keeping the baby because she couldn’t countenance abortion.

Haha stupid povvos

So neither was planned then which is a bit different.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
So neither was planned then which is a bit different.

None of mine were “planned” she got pregnant and we decided to keep them. That’s pretty normal throughout history. That’s my entire point, the change started with the pill enabling people to “plan” and once they start overthinking it they convince themselves that they, an average earner in one of the richest economies in history, are too poor to have kids, or their partner isn’t perfect, or they need to work on their career right now.

Like quitting smoking it’s rare to find the perfect time to have kids. You just have them and life carries on.

What you find is that being on the pill is easy, getting an abortion isn’t and the maths changes massively when you’re deciding to get rid compared to deciding to stop taking the pill, even thought the question “am I ready to have kids now?” Is the same.
 

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