Do you want to discuss boring politics? (39 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Surely both overlap? ie. Changing who can come in also defines who is here legally.

Deportation for crime is common sense and should be non-negotiable. No second chances, fuck around and find out.

OK just to give the most common devils advocate: refugee arrives aged 6, commits a crime at 19, doesn’t know anyone in their “home” country or speak the language. Still deport?

You can’t retrospectively change laws no, you can change the rules for when ILR or citizenship is possible but you can’t remove right to remain or citizenship from those that have it without a huge legal battle.

 

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[tisza]

Economic tests for arrivals seems reasonable to me. But for remaining?

Call me old fashioned, but I don’t think the government should be able to rescind basic privileges based on whether or not someone is deemed financially “positive”. There by the grace of etc etc.

EU does it.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Economic tests for arrivals seems reasonable to me. But for remaining?

Call me old fashioned, but I don’t think the government should be able to rescind basic privileges based on whether or not someone is deemed financially “positive”. There by the grace of etc etc.

Absolute minefield to negotiate. At what point does someone get deemed 'financially negative'? Is it the second they lose a job? Sounds like a situation rip for abuse from unscrupulous employers to me, threatening people with the sack unless they do extra hours for no extra pay etc. What about if a migrant gets to retirement age? Do they still have to remain 'financially positive' or is there a cut off point where they are deemed to have been financially positive for long enough?

At the very least it needs a time limit and conditions putting on it to even begin such a conversation.

With criminals of course I've no problem with them being removed, even if they've been here a long time (possibly having a points system like a driving licence depending on severity of crime - say 1 point for a minor offence up to instantly losing the right to remain for the worst offences like murder, rape and the grooming gangs).

 

[tisza]

Immigrants to the UK are already net economic contributors are they not?

Its another area where data is fudged. You'll see plenty of data on short term impact of single male immigrants assumed to be of working age who haven't had the cost of education etc.

 

[rob9872]

Its another area where data is fudged. You'll see plenty of data on short term impact of single male immigrants assumed to be of working age who haven't had the cost of education etc.

Well I'm not sure the 350 single males in our local Hilton have had made a huge contribution so far

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Questions for those with this as their main concern:

Would you ever accept just changing who can come in and deportations for serious crimes, or are you at the point where you want people who are here legally and law abiding to be removed?

Yes, Denmark had v similar issues, made changes to their immigration system and it’s removed anxiety of the public over migration and it’s nullified their ‘far right’.

A hard-working immigrant nurse whose child also happens to have a rare condition that requires regular medical care would probably also be a net drain on the taxpayer. Out they go?

Meanwhile an Albanian drug dealer makes a killing on selling cheap coke in Earlsdon, goes out and buys himself a new BMW with the profits, and the taxman banks a major cut of the proceeds. Economic productivity ftw?

Frankly, yes.

I’m glad you use a healthcare worker as an example because the health and social care worker visa route has been used to drive up net migration. The scheme expected 6-40k visas to be issued when it was introduced. 146k visas have been issued for workers plus an additional 203k dependents. Drilling further into the data, there was a 1:10 ratio of workers to dependents for Zimbabwean applicants of this scheme, this is a huge flag.

Most of these visas are being granted to low income individuals who will cost the taxpayer money in the long run. The OBR projected that a migrant earning less than median salary (c35k) is a net drain to the economy. Again, once indefinite leave to remain is granted after 5 years, every new arrival has full access to the welfare state.

On a more fundamental level, it is wrong for the government to cut trainee spaces for domestic workers to then solely rely on low income migration from poorer countries.

 

[mmttww]

Just finished this. If anyone's interested in things that drive all kinds of migration and less cash being available to fund services etc. I'd recommend it. Parts about how the US has essentially replaced 'offshore' through FATCA and CRS was pretty foreboding.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

View attachment 43739

Just finished this. If anyone's interested in things that drive all kinds of migration and less cash being available to fund services etc. I'd recommend it. Parts about how the US has essentially replaced 'offshore' through FATCA and CRS was pretty foreboding.

The bureaucrat who came up with the acronym knew exactly what they were doing naming it FATCA…

 

[fatso]

Rape and sexual abuse of children is not an Islamic problem. You've got a very short memory. At least be consistent with your outrage. Both the Catholic church and Church of England were responsible for systematic abuse that was covered up for decades.

But that's historic, not currently still happening (as far as we know anyway)

 

[Ccfcisparks]

But that's historic, not currently still happening (as far as we know anyway)

I think youd be surprised

 

[mmttww]

not currently still happening (as far as we know...)

Isn't this the same for cases you're talking about?

 

[tisza]

Rape and sexual abuse of children is not an Islamic problem. You've got a very short memory. At least be consistent with your outrage. Both the Catholic church and Church of England were responsible for systematic abuse that was covered up for decades.

All basically covered by the "establishment" for the same reason - didn't want a few bad apples to tarnish groups/organisations as a whole.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Enjoying how we roll on here. Call someone an apologist for gangs that raped kids, openly threaten them, infer they're a paedophile themselves, then like their next post and go quiet.

all while no one else calls it out.

Never used Twitter, never really used FB so I think I just got a blast of what it's like if you do, and wander an inch or two off-piste. If this is how we talk to each other now then we're f*cked.

You did it yourself.

You spent months denying what was going on and attacking people for raising the issues. It wasn't even when the inquiry announced that you stopped digging, you kept going saying the victims wanted this to stay quiet - which was just nonsense and another pussy attempt to sweep it under the carpet. Even when accounts of survivors were shared - you ignored them.

I liked your post about what you wanted to happen to the perpetrators when finally pushed, because I agreed with it, but let's not pretend it wasn't well beyond time. You've made yourself look like a right twat, and a sympathiser to what has gone on with your behaviour. That's on you and nobody else.

If I were you, I wouldn't be getting cocky now, or crying once again to the admins to shut down people calling you out. Anyone who has been complicit in making this an awkward conversation should be held to account, and that's being generous. You're included in this.

A good debate is fair, but that hasn't been happening. Maybe we are starting to see signs, but there is a long way to go still. Sorry, but if someone is going to continue to try and water this down, then I'm going to come after you. It is as simple as that.

What's happened is a disgrace.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

That issue with care workers sums it up. We refuse to pay decent wages and offer decent conditions for a vitally important job, can’t get British people to do the work, then baulk at foreigners coming in to do it instead.

I agree with this.

The issue is Brighton, the UK does not pay good wages. It's absolutely shite. Across so many fields. You would think someone looking after the elderly should be paid a respectable wage, but they aren't. Not the same, but it is similair principle for emergency workers, teachers, and other important roles.

It's a universal problem. I'm in the Czech Republic a lot. Many of the low income workers here are Ukranian. For them, the money is good. In the UK, the money is good for Polish people, or those from south Asia.

The UK needs to make wages for these jobs attractive enough, because at the moment the idea of doing a tough job for next to fuck all is not appealing for many. Especially when the benifit system is handing out money too easily, in my opinion.

 

[wingy]

Somebody decided to do away with the care sector as an active decision around 15years ago taking the decision locally to take the condition's of the workforce down.

 

[fatso]

Isn't this the same for cases you're talking about?

Apparently the Muslim rape gangs are still active, (according to news reporting on you tube, if you choose to believe them)

 

[fatso]

That issue with care workers sums it up. We refuse to pay decent wages and offer decent conditions for a vitally important job, can’t get British people to do the work, then baulk at foreigners coming in to do it instead.

There's also a lot of able bodied British people who won't work as they can claim money from the state instead.
I personally know of a number of such cases, with some even getting new cars!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I agree with this.

The issue is Brighton, the UK does not pay good wages. It's absolutely shite. Across so many fields. You would think someone looking after the elderly should be paid a respectable wage, but they aren't. Not the same, but it is similair principle for emergency workers, teachers, and other important roles.

It's a universal problem. I'm in the Czech Republic a lot. Many of the low income workers here are Ukranian. For them, the money is good. In the UK, the money is good for Polish people, or those from south Asia.

The UK needs to make wages for these jobs attractive enough, because at the moment the idea of doing a tough job for next to fuck all is not appealing for many. Especially when the benifit system is handing out money too easily, in my opinion.

Welcome to the progressive left ESB

 

[Nick]

That issue with care workers sums it up. We refuse to pay decent wages and offer decent conditions for a vitally important job, can’t get British people to do the work, then baulk at foreigners coming in to do it instead.

Again, how many are baulking at people coming in to graft? I don't doubt there will be some cunts but this is where people try and blur the lines when people have an issue with "immigration".

"I have an issue with how immigration is at the minute"
"Oh so you don't want doctors and nurses then?"
"It's more about people who don't want to work"
"Plenty here who don't want to work already"

Is how it usually goes.

If somebody wants to come to the UK and graft their arses off as a carer than fair fucks to them.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Again, how many are baulking at people coming in to graft? I don't doubt there will be some cunts but this is where people try and blur the lines when people have an issue with "immigration".

"I have an issue with how immigration is at the minute"
"Oh so you don't want doctors and nurses then?"
"It's more about people who don't want to work"
"Plenty here who don't want to work already"

Is how it usually goes.

If somebody wants to come to the UK and graft their arses off as a carer than fair fucks to them.

I’m basing it off what constitutes the bulk of the immigration figures. If it’s predominantly students and people coming to do low paid or difficult work, it’s not as easy to decide how to cut it back.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

OK just to give the most common devils advocate: refugee arrives aged 6, commits a crime at 19, doesn’t know anyone in their “home” country or speak the language. Still deport?

You can’t retrospectively change laws no, you can change the rules for when ILR or citizenship is possible but you can’t remove right to remain or citizenship from those that have it without a huge legal battle.

Foreign nationals can be deported

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Welcome to the progressive left ESB

I can't keep up with this Brighton. I was a far-right bigot five minutes ago.

 

[rob9872]

I’m basing it off what constitutes the bulk of the immigration figures. If it’s predominantly students and people coming to do low paid or difficult work, it’s not as easy to decide how to cut it back.

But all students aren't staying are they? Many come to learn, then return (not always but some), therefore each year the net student migration should be closer to zero.

It's a nice stat, but I don't think it's the main part of the problem. We also have emigration to count, where last year about 80k (out of approx 0.5m) British left the country. Net migration only 400k but closer to 1m actually arrived. It's unsustainable at those levels, particularly with our infrastructure and housing.

 

[chiefdave]

It's unsustainable at those levels, particularly with our infrastructure and housing.

Non EU makes up over 80% and there's a breakdown on the ONS site, I'm curious how we can look to get the levels down without shooting ourselves in the foot?


The university sector is already warning multiple universities are on the verge of bankruptcy due to lower overseas student numbers. Personally I'm against university education being run as a for profit business but we're decades into that genie being out of the bottle and the sector is now a massive employer so you'd need to have a plan for all the people employed if you're looking to significantly reduce it.

Similarly businesses that are reliant on overseas labour are already complaining that the tightening of regulations has led to a decrease in people willing to come and work here which is having a significant impact. Again I'm very much against underpaying people and making them work in appalling conditions but the second anyone proposes improving pay and conditions in any sector people start screaming about inflation and the impending collapse of the economy.

Asylum? Well unless they aren't genuine cases, which you'd assume would be rejected, are we looking to put a cap on that. The figures would suggest the impact of that would be minimal.

Fear we're so far down the rabbit hole there's not an easy option here. And that's just people coming in, if we start to talk about removing people already here the issues are just multiplied.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But all students aren't staying are they? Many come to learn, then return (not always but some), therefore each year the net student migration should be closer to zero.

It's a nice stat, but I don't think it's the main part of the problem. We also have emigration to count, where last year about 80k (out of approx 0.5m) British left the country. Net migration only 400k but closer to 1m actually arrived. It's unsustainable at those levels, particularly with our infrastructure and housing.

My point is students are included in the figures which people are using to claim how bonkers immigration is.

Biggest issue for me is what’s going on in hotels because we’re processing claims so slowly and the French aren’t really doing their bit on their side of the channel.

 

[Captain Dart]

Non EU makes up over 80% and there's a breakdown on the ONS site, I'm curious how we can look to get the levels down without shooting ourselves in the foot?

View attachment 43744
The university sector is already warning multiple universities are on the verge of bankruptcy due to lower overseas student numbers. Personally I'm against university education being run as a for profit business but we're decades into that genie being out of the bottle and the sector is now a massive employer so you'd need to have a plan for all the people employed if you're looking to significantly reduce it.

Similarly businesses that are reliant on overseas labour are already complaining that the tightening of regulations has led to a decrease in people willing to come and work here which is having a significant impact. Again I'm very much against underpaying people and making them work in appalling conditions but the second anyone proposes improving pay and conditions in any sector people start screaming about inflation and the impending collapse of the economy.

Asylum? Well unless they aren't genuine cases, which you'd assume would be rejected, are we looking to put a cap on that. The figures would suggest the impact of that would be minimal.

Fear we're so far down the rabbit hole there's not an easy option here. And that's just people coming in, if we start to talk about removing people already here the issues are just multiplied.

Those numbers are surely unsustainable, somewhere between 750k and 900k p.a.

How many people leave the UK each year, what is overall net immigration?

 

[SBAndy]

Far from a subject matter expert; if someone comes to study (assuming on a student visa) do they have to change visa type when heading into employment? And is it feasible for someone in education for 5 years to get the ILR?

 

[chiefdave]

Those numbers are surely unsustainable, somewhere between 750k and 900k p.a.

How many people leave the UK each year, what is overall net immigration?

 

[chiefdave]

Far from a subject matter expert; if someone comes to study (assuming on a student visa) do they have to change visa type when heading into employment? And is it feasible for someone in education for 5 years to get the ILR?

Students can get a 2 year post student work visa fairly easily but the years spent as a student don't count towards the 5 years needed for indefinite leave to remain.

Technically if you been in the country for 10 years continuously, even on multiple study visas, without spending more than about 500 days outside the country in total you can apply but that is looked at much more closely. Not really an automatic thing and the chances of you getting one if its 10 years of just study is pretty slim.

 

[mmttww]

a sympathiser to what has gone on with your behaviour.

Whatever it was that sent you down this one man internet vigilante path, sorry it happened. You might wanna stop saying things on the internet that you'd never say in person 1:1, though. Not great.

 

[fatso]

All basically covered by the "establishment" for the same reason - didn't want a few bad apples to tarnish groups/organisations as a whole.

Reporters are saying as many as 250,000 children have been sexualy abused by these rape gangs.

If that figure is even remotely accurate, then there's way more than a few "bad apples"

I guess we'll have to wait for the conclusion of the investigation and the report to find out for sure, but it looks shocking.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Whatever it was that sent you down this one man internet vigilante path, sorry it happened. You might wanna stop saying things on the internet that you'd never say in person 1:1, though. Not great.

I would tell you in person. Not a problem at all. I just hope your comments about the perpetrators are where you stand. If that is the case we are going to get on fine.

Yes, you picked up on something. This issue has effected someone close to me very badly. It's caused years of misery. I am finally at the point where I feel we can get some justice.

 

[shmmeee]

Foreign nationals can be deported

For no reason? Or because we change the rules? I’d be surprised. Is there precedent for it anywhere?

 

[mmttww]

I would tell you in person. Not a problem at all. I just hope your comments about the perpetrators are where you stand. If that is the case we are going to get on fine.

Yes, you picked up on something. This issue has effected someone close to me very badly. It's caused years of misery. I am finally at the point where I feel we can get some justice.

No, we're not gonna get on fine. Stuff you've said is beyond sh*t. I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone but I thought you might knock it off if I set my position out. You haven't. Justice isn't screaming at a father of two on the internet, inferring he's a sex offender and labelling him an apologist for horrific crimes. FFS just leave it now.

 

[shmmeee]

Reporters are saying as many as 250,000 children have been sexualy abused by these rape gangs.

If that figure is even remotely accurate, then there's way more than a few "bad apples"

I guess we'll have to wait for the conclusion of the investigation and the report to find out for sure, but it looks shocking.

In that case reporters are wrong. Even the highest estimations aren’t close to that figure.

“Rape gangs” weren’t well defined but the report states by the best definition we’ve got in 2023 there were 700 offences, which obviously could cover more than one victim/perp.

I think you’re confused with child abuse offences in total which are about 100k a year but estimated to be twice that due to under reporting. That covers everything from teenagers sharing nudes to dirty uncles to full organised rape gangs.