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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (24 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,481
rob9872 said:
Imo the contracts for PPE remain the biggest scandal
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It’s up there. But you have to remember who controls the tone and why they give people like Michelle Mone a free pass. She comes from the same place as the Murdochs, the remaining Barclay brother and the Rothermeres. She’s one of them and they look after their own so have you distracted with things like boats and Rwanda. Same reason Sunak wrote off billions in covid fraud. Cronyism.
 
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,482
shmmeee said:
So id probably restrict to middle class professions outside of similar western nations.
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How are you defining nations as being similar (or not) to the UK?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,483
SBT said:
How are you defining nations as being similar (or not) to the UK?
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GDP per capita mostly.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,484
skybluetony176 said:
It’s up there. But you have to remember who controls the tone and why they give people like Michelle Mone a free pass. She comes from the same place as the Murdochs, the remaining Barclay brother and the Rothermeres. She’s one of them and they look after their own so have you distracted with things like boats and Rwanda. Same reason Sunak wrote off billions in covid fraud. Cronyism.
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Most of the covid fraud (bounceback/CBILS loans) relates to the poor lending processes. To be fair, it was desperate times and the government/British business bank were just desperate to get cash out to businesses to stop them all going bust. Typically though fraudsters and greedy fuckers took advantage of this. The PPE/contracts to businesses with no history in that area, who then didn’t deliver suitable kit was a disgrace. Isn’t Mone deal being investigated ? Hope people get sent down and/or made to repay the cash
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,485
shmmeee said:
This would have been a right zinger before me and NW had a conversation clarifying how it would be done.

But you’re right, no jobs in Cornwall, so we’re unlikely to build there, more likely to increase density in the cities where the jobs are. As I said.
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Oh ok problem solved then
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,486
Grendel said:
Oh ok problem solved then
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Yep
 
Reactions: Grendel
D

Deleted member 9744

Guest
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,487
Deleted member 5849 said:
Not surprising I am, when I hear that we've "only built on a tiny tiny percentage of the country."

Compared to most countries in the world, we're over-densely populated. 152 per km2 in China btw, about a third of the density in England.
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There are vast parts of China that really are not habitable.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,488
shmmeee said:
Yep
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Next you will be pretending you aren’t really more a Tory these days than me
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,489
CCFCSteve said:
Most of the covid fraud (bounceback/CBILS loans) relates to the poor lending processes. To be fair, it was desperate times and the government/British business bank were just desperate to get cash out to businesses to stop them all going bust. Typically though fraudsters and greedy fuckers took advantage of this. The PPE/contracts to businesses with no history in that area, who then didn’t deliver suitable kit was a disgrace. Isn’t Mone deal being investigated ? Hope people get sent down and/or made to repay the cash
Click to expand...
But even the governments own estimates was that they could if they wished get a quarter of it back. I understand that it was a desperate time but the fact that they believed that they could get a quarter of it back and chose not to demonstrates how they value the public purse. The failed test and trace system too. What was the final bill? Over £30B IIRC, what the hell did Dido Harding do with it. Needs explaining.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,490
More horrific hell holes that make Birmingham a paradise: Geneva, Paris, Seoul, Barcelona.

Oh the horrors of cities denser than London.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,491
Grendel said:
Next you will be pretending you aren’t really more a Tory these days than me
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Im not sure what you are. It strongly depends on what I’m arguing it seems.

As I said support for immigration is more a right wing than left wing thing.

Now ask me about tax and spend.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,492
shmmeee said:
More horrific hell holes that make Birmingham a paradise: Geneva, Paris, Seoul, Barcelona.

Oh the horrors of cities denser than London.
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A bit like plucking the random countries for population density, we could always pick a few cities that are indeed horrific.

(And as for those picked, Paris has a deeply seedy underbelly btw, really not sure I like it! Barcelona as far as I could see was split into good tourist vs slight shantiness. Can't speak for Seoul, but I did know people who couldn't wait to escape because living in that way was driving them insane! OK, this government sent them back because they only had a temporary work contract for three years...)
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,493
Deleted member 5849 said:
A bit like plucking the random countries for population density, we could always pick a few cities that are indeed horrific.

(And as for those picked, Paris has a deeply seedy underbelly btw, really not sure I like it! Barcelona as far as I could see was split into good tourist vs slight shantiness. Can't speak for Seoul, but I did know people who couldn't wait to escape because living in that way was driving them insane! OK, this government sent them back because they only had a temporary work contract for three years...)
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Again, your starting point is Birmingham.

It’s about design decisions but you can have perfectly liveable walkable cities that hold more than our current biggest cities.

Forget everything else. Why can’t central London be like Manhattan? Would that be so terrible?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,494
I mean even if we stopped all the foreigners we’d still need to build something like a million homes to meet what we have. Are we saying that’s impossible?
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,495
shmmeee said:
Why can’t central London be like Manhattan?
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It is!
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,496
shmmeee said:
GDP per capita mostly.
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A style of presentation we're getting used to.
 
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shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,497
clint van damme said:
It is!
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It’s really not. Its density is 3 x central London.
 
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,498
shmmeee said:
Why can’t central London be like Manhattan? Would that be so terrible?
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It’s never going to happen and large parts of Manhattan are not easy places to live!
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,499
wingy said:
A style of presentation we're getting used to.
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What happened to Japan in 2010?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,500
SBT said:
It’s never going to happen and large parts of Manhattan are not easy places to live!
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Neither are large parts of London or Birmingham or Manchester. Big cities do be like that.

And there’s a huge amount of room between the two. We could double density in central London and Manhattan’s would still be 50% higher. And we don’t even need to do that.

I assume you’re another “country is full” type. I just don’t see the logic.
 
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,501
shmmeee said:
GDP per capita mostly.
Click to expand...
So throw open the doors to the UAE and Kuwait, but Ukraine goes to the back of the line with India?
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,502
How much of England is actually built on? Pretty sure it’s less than 10%; all countries in Western Europe require immigration to offset people living longer and decreasing birth rates.
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,503
Stack em high?
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,504
shmmeee said:
What happened to Japan in 2010?
Click to expand...
Chinaa?
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,505
shmmeee said:
It’s really not. Its density is 3 x central London.
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That's just central right? London?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,506
SBT said:
So throw open the doors to the UAE and Kuwait, but Ukraine goes to the back of the line with India?
Click to expand...

Pretty much. You get we are talking about open immigration and not asylum/students/high skill right?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,507
wingy said:
That's just central right? London?
Click to expand...

yeah
 
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,508
shmmeee said:
Neither are large parts of London or Birmingham or Manchester. Big cities do be like that.

And there’s a huge amount of room between the two. We could double density in central London and Manhattan’s would still be 50% higher. And we don’t even need to do that.

I assume you’re another “country is full” type. I just don’t see the logic.
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You assume wrong - I just mean that Manhattan’s population density is deeply unusual for a major western city, and is the product of urban planning, economic and cultural factors that can’t be replicated in central London, which is thousands of years old. And having lived in both places, central London is a much more pleasant place to live. I’m not being a NIMBY saying that - let a thousand blossoms bloom etc - but we’re not about to turn Westminster into the Lower East Side and we shouldn’t pretend we can either.
 
Reactions: Deleted member 5849

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,509
Sick Boy said:
How much of England is actually built on? Pretty sure it’s less than 10%; all countries in Western Europe require immigration to offset people living longer and decreasing birth rates.
Click to expand...

If you include gardens it’s just under 15% I think.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete and Sick Boy

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,510
SBT said:
You assume wrong - I just mean that Manhattan’s population density is deeply unusual for a major western city, and is the product of urban planning, economic and cultural factors that can’t be replicated in central London, which is thousands of years old. And having lived in both places, central London is a much more pleasant place to live. I’m not being a NIMBY saying that - let a thousand blossoms bloom etc - but we’re not about to turn Westminster into the Lower East Side and we shouldn’t pretend we can either.
Click to expand...

But we don’t need to. I’m using these cities as examples because people are saying we can’t increase density at all. As I say there’s huge swathes of ground between central London now and Manhattan. But people are acting like if we add another storey to some buildings we’ll be living in slum land. It’s nonsense.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,511
Actually if you want Manhattan Milton Keynes probably makes most sense.

Stick some high speed connections to Oxford, Cambridge, London and Birmingham in and you’d grow it to the millions easily.
 
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,512
shmmeee said:
Pretty much. You get we are talking about open immigration and not asylum/students/high skill right?
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I’m just trying to understand why countries with high GDP per capita - a table typically topped by Middle East petrostates and gambling dens - are considered to be more culturally similar to us than, say, much poorer Commonwealth states who have used our language and legal system for more than a century.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,513
SBT said:
I’m just trying to understand why countries with high GDP per capita - a table typically topped by Middle East petrostates and gambling dens - are considered to be more culturally similar to us than, say, much poorer Commonwealth states who have used our language and legal system for more than a century.
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It’s not just about culture. It’s about the number of people that are likely to emigrate. Most Kuwaitis and Arabs emigrant between the countries, not to the UK. If we opened up to Ukraine we’d have the same issues we had in the early 2000s.
 
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,514
shmmeee said:
But we don’t need to. I’m using these cities as examples because people are saying we can’t increase density at all. As I say there’s huge swathes of ground between central London now and Manhattan. But people are acting like if we add another storey to some buildings we’ll be living in slum land. It’s nonsense.
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I agree with you there, but it’s one thing to attract millions more people to cramp together in New York, the cultural and financial capital of the planet. Persuading them to move to a windowless studio in Milton Keynes may be a tougher pitch…
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 7, 2023
  • #32,515
shmmeee said:
I mean even if we stopped all the foreigners we’d still need to build something like a million homes to meet what we have. Are we saying that’s impossible?
Click to expand...

You have a financial interest in land acquisition don’t you?
 
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