Do you want to discuss boring politics? (16 Viewers)

Deleted member 9744 · Aug 9, 2022

PVA said:
So I've just read about 'Warm banks'

Public buildings e.g. libraries that councils are preparing to let people use to keep warm when they can't afford to put their heating on.

Fucking disgusting that we need such a thing in this day and age.

Of course it is disgraceful that some people don't have enough money to meet absolutely essential living costs, especially when our next Prime Minister intends to reduce taxes which won't help such people.

However, this is actually a good initiative, both from an environmental and public well-being perspective and exactly the sort of thing that a competent Government would be promoting and planning. We have lots of big buildings that we have to heat but which are far from fully occupied. Why not save energy by coordinating this? A lot of elderly people would also quite likely benefit from seeing other people which also tackles loneliness which is a major problem with older people. However, under the Tories since Thatcher there is no such thing as society, it's all about helping yourself and don't care about anyone less fortunate.

No this isn't a substitute for dealing with the grotesque inequality we have and which is going to get worse but it is potentially a good initiative for many reasons.

PVA · Aug 9, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
And like food banks it will be something that the government views as a replacement for them taking responsibility. Oh it’s fine charity and goodwill will take care of it

And Tory voters will somehow justify it as a good thing by the government, like they did with foodbanks.

'We've got 10 foodbanks here now, we never had any under bloody Labour!'

Deleted member 9744 · Aug 9, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
And like food banks it will be something that the government views as a replacement for them taking responsibility. Oh it’s fine charity and goodwill will take care of it

It shouldn't be a charity thing. It should be coordinated by Government.

Sky Blue Pete · Aug 9, 2022

PVA said:
So I've just read about 'Warm banks'

Public buildings e.g. libraries that councils are preparing to let people use to keep warm when they can't afford to put their heating on.

Fucking disgusting that we need such a thing in this day and age.

Least some aren’t burying their heads. Can you imagine the increased suicide risk coming our way

skybluetony176 · Aug 9, 2022

Sky Blue Pete said:
Least some aren’t burying their heads. Can you imagine the increased suicide risk coming our way

Mental healthcare has been chaotic for about a decade now. They recon a third of an average police officers job is now dealing with people with mental health issues. Austerity was great wasn’t it.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 9, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
Massive problems on the way this winter and there’s nothing anyone can do about the prices…unless the war ends, which I very much doubt unfortunately.

You’ve just got to hope that the government properly helps those most in need. I reckon they’ll be another round of significant assistance when we get to autumn. It needs better targeting though

...except the companies making record profits. Or the government, who could put legislation in place to prevent them profiteering to such a degree.

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 9, 2022

Deleted member 9744 said:
It shouldn't be a charity thing. It should be coordinated by Government.

That’s what I implied.

CCFCSteve said:
Massive problems on the way this winter and there’s nothing anyone can do about the prices…unless the war ends, which I very much doubt unfortunately.

You’ve just got to hope that the government properly helps those most in need. I reckon they’ll be another round of significant assistance when we get to autumn. It needs better targeting though

This may be a very naive question, but:

If the profits are so high for fossil fuel companies, doesn’t that suggest the prices could be much lower?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 9, 2022

Deleted member 9744 said:
Of course it is disgraceful that some people don't have enough money to meet absolutely essential living costs, especially when our next Prime Minister intends to reduce taxes which won't help such people.

However, this is actually a good initiative, both from an environmental and public well-being perspective and exactly the sort of thing that a competent Government would be promoting and planning. We have lots of big buildings that we have to heat but which are far from fully occupied. Why not save energy by coordinating this? A lot of elderly people would also quite likely benefit from seeing other people which also tackles loneliness which is a major problem with older people. However, under the Tories since Thatcher there is no such thing as society, it's all about helping yourself and don't care about anyone less fortunate.

No this isn't a substitute for dealing with the grotesque inequality we have and which is going to get worse but it is potentially a good initiative for many reasons.

While I get your point, a competent government wouldn't have let it get to a stage where people had to huddle together for warmth because they can't heat their own homes while energy companies make record profits and the wealthy are being given tax cuts.

And it's not that great a solution because they're still going to have to go home to the cold house eventually, probably during the coldest part of the day. And if they don't have the heating on at all they run the risk of burst pipes etc and all the costs associated with that.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 9, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
And like food banks it will be something that the government views as a replacement for them taking responsibility. Oh it’s fine charity and goodwill will take care of it

It's one of those things that I feel torn over. I think it's wonderful how these people and organisations are helping people, but at the same time it's because of people like them papering over the gaping chasms that's enabling government to get away with failure of it's duty to it's own citizens.

Imagine if all that charity and goodwill stopped. It wouldn't be long before we had people marching in the streets.

CCFCSteve · Aug 9, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
That’s what I implied. Went to a Greek village last week where there was an old olive oil press that had been paid for and built by the village

This may be a very naive question, but:

If the profits are so high for fossil fuel companies, doesn’t that suggest the prices could be much lower?

Yeah, massive demand and reduced supply (from Russia) has pushed prices up. there’s no doubt some companies have been profiteering though, especially on oil. I heard earlier that the cost per barrel was recently around same as Feb ($90) but prices at petrol stations are still 30p per litre higher than then, which is a disgrace

I saw a breakdown of the retail energy bills though and the profit per customer was something like £35 (out of say £2k). I’ll see if I can dig out article but it wasn’t crazy. Our household energy bills are obviously capped, they’re high because of wholesale gas prices not through rampant profiteering.

All energy companies get lumped together which isn’t helpful. BP and Shell who have taken the piss don’t provide our gas and electric. Centrica made bigger profits this year but most of that won’t be from standard household energy and it’s nowhere near those other two. I think they’ve committed to re-investing in UK gas storage facilities which is at least some consolation

Lots of household energy companies have gone bust in last 12 months which shows there’s not massive profit in it, especially at the moment

CCFCSteve · Aug 9, 2022

Ps don’t take that as me defending actions of all companies/their profits, I’m not. Some are taking the piss and it’s wrong especially in times like now…hopefully it will come back to bite some. The owner of Iceland has got the right idea. By all accounts he’s accepted margins will be squeezed and is apparently sharing the pain with customers

PVA · Aug 9, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
Our household energy bills are obviously capped

I think a lot of people (not saying you are one of them!) don't understand the cap.

They see this new update today of £4,266 and think that's the cap - that they can leave their heating on all winter and that's the most they can be charged and not understanding that it's the price per kWh that is capped.

I think that will catch a lot of people out unfortunately

PVA · Aug 9, 2022

The government needs to do something now though.

Martin Lewis described them as a 'Zombie government' and he's right. We can't wait till they get back off their holidays.

CCFCSteve · Aug 9, 2022

PVA said:
The government needs to do something now though.

Martin Lewis described them as a 'Zombie government' and he's right. We can't wait till they get back off their holidays.

Johnson fucking off on holiday when he finishes next month anyway is inexcusable although unsurprising. People just want to know the government are at least working on an assistance plan. Appreciate it will be for the new PM to decide but you’d hope the treasury are already working on options. An immediate UC inflation uplift in the meantime would’ve helped

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 9, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
Johnson fucking off on holiday when he finishes next month anyway is inexcusable although unsurprising. People just want to know the government are at least working on an assistance plan. Appreciate it will be for the new PM to decide but you’d hope the treasury are already working on options. An immediate UC inflation uplift in the meantime would’ve helped

Well he’s managing to make it about him until the end. ‘You binned me off so I can’t do anything substantial before the new leader comes in’.

skybluejelly · Aug 9, 2022

PVA said:
I think a lot of people (not saying you are one of them!) don't understand the cap.

They see this new update today of £4,266 and think that's the cap - that they can leave their heating on all winter and that's the most they can be charged and not understanding that it's the price per kWh that is capped.

I think that will catch a lot of people out unfortunately

This is true , I had to explain this to someone at work who I thought was reasonably intelligent, he was telling me he already pays £3000 a year so with the cap in Oct set at £3700 he will only be paying £700 more ..he then came in next week and said they want to set his direct debits at £600 a month

Sent from my CPH2025 using Tapatalk

wingy · Aug 9, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
Yeah, massive demand and reduced supply (from Russia) has pushed prices up. there’s no doubt some companies have been profiteering though, especially on oil. I heard earlier that the cost per barrel was recently around same as Feb ($90) but prices at petrol stations are still 30p per litre higher than then, which is a disgrace

I saw a breakdown of the retail energy bills though and the profit per customer was something like £35 (out of say £2k). I’ll see if I can dig out article but it wasn’t crazy. Our household energy bills are obviously capped, they’re high because of wholesale gas prices not through rampant profiteering.

All energy companies get lumped together which isn’t helpful. BP and Shell who have taken the piss don’t provide our gas and electric. Centrica made bigger profits this year but most of that won’t be from standard household energy and it’s nowhere near those other two. I think they’ve committed to re-investing in UK gas storage facilities which is at least some consolation

Lots of household energy companies have gone bust in last 12 months which shows there’s not massive profit in it, especially at the moment

Well I keep bringing it up but it would be nice to see some international comparisons.
Particularly keen to see whether govt subsidies to end users encourages further price hikes that absorb them.

Edit :Not necessarily our retail suppliers but the market.

Ian1779 · Aug 9, 2022

TaKiNg BaCk CoNtRoL…

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2022

Ian1779 said:
View attachment 25739
TaKiNg BaCk CoNtRoL…

Ah, privitisation eh...

skybluetony176 · Aug 9, 2022

Ian1779 said:
View attachment 25739
TaKiNg BaCk CoNtRoL…

They decided to leave the European internal energy market as part of brexit even though we were under no obligation to do so and no one voted for us do so. The effect of this was higher costs for imported electricity, we’re nett importers of electricity and it equates to about 6% of electricity used in the UK. Couple that with the damage brexit has done to the value of the pound meaning gas and oil imports have gotten more expensive, thus making generating electricity more expensive and there’s little doubt that brexit has had an effect on rising energy costs.

Was also reading today that scrapping green energy tariffs is also counter productive even short term as the tariff is being used to transition into renewables which will make us less vulnerable to hikes in gas prices and give us energy security also. Basically the green tariffs are an investment.

Grendel · Aug 9, 2022

Ian1779 said:
View attachment 25739
TaKiNg BaCk CoNtRoL…

we were much cheaper last year then?

What’s this sourced from?

How UK gas and electricity prices compare to France, Germany and rest of Europe

Brits are facing far higher energy costs this year, but how do our bills compare with our European neighbours?

www.nationalworld.com

Ian1779 · Aug 9, 2022

Grendel said:
we were much cheaper last year then?

What’s this sourced from?

How UK gas and electricity prices compare to France, Germany and rest of Europe

Brits are facing far higher energy costs this year, but how do our bills compare with our European neighbours?

www.nationalworld.com

It says on the image.

Grendel · Aug 9, 2022

Ian1779 said:
It says on the image.

er that’s not an official source but a lot of left leading publications and Ofgem

it’s not true is it?

wingy · Aug 9, 2022

Hmmm.
5% VAT on £1200 per ann or £4200.
Which would you rather?
Winner Winner chicken dinner.
Like via the future foreign provided Nuclear plants and certain retail providers it will certainly help insulate their markets to an extent.

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 9, 2022

Ian1779 said:
View attachment 25739
TaKiNg BaCk CoNtRoL…

Hmm, France

Over 70% of energy from domestic nuclear power plants
Nuclear power is controlled by state owned companies
Renewables the next largest chunk of the grid

Almost like it's what we should have done all along

Grendel · Aug 9, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Hmm, France

Over 70% of energy from domestic nuclear power plants
Nuclear power is controlled by state owned companies
Renewables the next largest chunk of the grid

Almost like it's what we should have done all along

I think it’s more to do with macron having an election and before it freezing energy prices and absorbing £7 billion losses on the purchase of energy. Which in time will be recouped in general taxation

wingy · Aug 9, 2022

Grendel said:
I think it’s more to do with macron having an election and before it freezing energy prices and absorbing £7 billion losses on the purchase of energy. Which in time will be recouped in general taxation

But that's a fairly smart way to do it ,no ?
In the meantime our next potential PM is advocating cutting tax.
Leaving behind a large contingent in our society who exist on £10k or less and fixed incomes where tax cuts won't apply to thier situation.

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 9, 2022

Grendel said:
I think it’s more to do with macron having an election and before it freezing energy prices and absorbing £7 billion losses on the purchase of energy. Which in time will be recouped in general taxation

French energy costs have usually been pretty favourable have they not? Which isn't a massive surprise combining state ownership with home grown electricity.

And in paying EDF we're helping them even further

Grendel · Aug 9, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
French energy costs have usually been pretty favourable have they not? Which isn't a massive surprise combining state ownership with home grown electricity.

And in paying EDF we're helping them even further

I’m not against nuclear but many on your side of politics would never encourage it

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2022

Grendel said:
I’m not against nuclear but many on your side of politics would never encourage it

/waves

But tbf, no need to fight battles on my behalf, that's not your usual approach...

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 9, 2022

Grendel said:
I’m not against nuclear but many on your side of politics would never encourage it

It does put me at odds with most people in left wing circles but the scientist in me understands it's needed to plug the gap while we find a long term energy and fuel solution. France got onto it at the right time and have benefitted. Part of their problem at the moment is the plants are coming to the end of their useful life which will mean some decomissioning and recommissioning needed to keep up supply.

PVA · Aug 9, 2022

She's just dreadful.

David O'Day · Aug 9, 2022

PVA said:
She's just dreadful.

Redwall polling i not good at all for her or her party

But yes she is that shit that Labour can basically sleep walk into power if needed. Her only chance was to see if she got a "new and shiny" poll bounce and then try for an early election but she's ruled that out.

Still the cost of living crisis is going to get so much worse with her in no.10

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 9, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
It does put me at odds with most people in left wing circles but the scientist in me understands it's needed to plug the gap while we find a long term energy and fuel solution. France got onto it at the right time and have benefitted. Part of their problem at the moment is the plants are coming to the end of their useful life which will mean some decomissioning and recommissioning needed to keep up supply.

That's one of my issues with it - it feels like we're quickly moving on with other sources and new nuclear plants being agreed now are going to be expensive millstones by the time they even come online, let alone are due to be decommissioned, If that was the way we were going to go it needed to have been a long time ago and for them to be ready to produce energy right now.

CCFCSteve · Aug 10, 2022

Ian1779 said:
View attachment 25739
TaKiNg BaCk CoNtRoL…

I might be wrong but I’d be shocked if that’s the case, certainly come the end of this year due to Europes historical reliance on Russia. They might be being a bit disingenuous as well. I’m not sure about how they’ve calculated Germany (this will
already be out of date) but France energy has been capped and the government are subsiding directly to minimise the rise. I presume our figure doesn’t include rebates that the government is paying out directly to us all rather than reducing the bills, which would reduce that percentage

I think most countries are fishing in the same pond for gas so paying the same wholesale price (I think we actually pay less for LNG but then pipe it over to Europe - Im not sure but believe we then get charged what they do !!!). governments will have to either subsidise customers at source or via rebates. The only true comparison would be finding out what each countries customers average bills/tarrifs are after any government assistance. I can’t see that anywhere though

Either way, Europe inc us are pretty fucked this winter. Sorry to disappoint some on here but this isn’t because we’ve left the EU …it’s because for years we’ve taken our energy security for granted and let NIMBYS and eco extremists (nuclear and fracking) dictate our energy policy…then backed up by short termist governments

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