Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
That average will also surely be distorted by the much higher pay in London won't it?
That average will also surely be distorted by the much higher pay in London won't it?That data is not accurate, it would have the average UK salary at £44k when the ONS says it is more like £37k
Employee earnings in the UK - Office for National Statistics
Measures of employee earnings, using data from the Annual Survey for Hours and Earnings (ASHE).www.ons.gov.uk
However, even with that, average pay is not consistent across the UK so in many regions the average salary is likely to be lower still than £37k.
If you convert that UK salary into Euros you see that average wages in the UK are lower than all of the developed northern European countries, the monthly average would be €3545.
It’s odd when you look at average salaries as we are pretty competitive compared to Europe
Average salaries across Europe: Which countries have the highest pay?
Euronews takes a closer look at how average full-time adjusted salaries vary across Europe, both in nominal terms and in purchasing power standards.www.euronews.com
That average will also surely be distorted by the much higher pay in London won't it?
This is precisely happening in some of the newer EU members. Bulgaria's population is declining and is primarily driven by outwards migration to richer EU nations.I do find it vaguely amusing that - as I always said - one of the key reasons the Freedom of Movement rules in the EU were established was so that the bigger countries could exploit the poorer ones by extracting their workers and exploiting their willingness to work for lower wages and poorer conditions
It will, but don't other countries have areas that have higher wages and costs of living, most likely their capital cities too?That average will also surely be distorted by the much higher pay in London won't it?
They will, but I'm not convinced that they aren't as lopsided in distribution as the UK is.It will, but don't other countries have areas that have higher wages and costs of living, most likely their capital cities too?
Give it time, we'll start moving to Poland and opening fish and chip shopsThis is precisely happening in some of the newer EU members. Bulgaria's population is declining and is primarily driven by outwards migration to richer EU nations.
Poland is somewhat of an anomaly because it is on course to overtake the UK on a GDP per capita basis and is a high wage economy. Notably, it has been v restrictive on immigration and benefits from a growing manufacturing base, attractive to businesses because its low tax and relatively deregulated. A Polish lad I talk to at the gym has said a lot of his friends who came to UK have gone back to Poland because of the pay - their tax is 17% and do not have NI because their healthcare system is insurance-based.
It is a great irony that the broader mainstream 'left' has adopted pro-immigration stances and the de-regulation of the labour market. Thatcher and neoliberals (Reagan too) were initially v enthusiastic about the freedom of movement because they wanted to break the unions grip on the working class.
Battered Carp and GnocchiGive it time, we'll start moving to Poland and opening fish and chip shops
Never had you down as so health conscious buddyBattered Carp and Gnocchi
Poland is an EU member, how can you say it is relatively deregulated compared to the UK?This is precisely happening in some of the newer EU members. Bulgaria's population is declining and is primarily driven by outwards migration to richer EU nations.
Poland is somewhat of an anomaly because it is on course to overtake the UK on a GDP per capita basis and is a high wage economy. Notably, it has been v restrictive on immigration and benefits from a growing manufacturing base, attractive to businesses because its low tax and relatively deregulated. A Polish lad I talk to at the gym has said a lot of his friends who came to UK have gone back to Poland because of the pay - their tax is 17% and do not have NI because their healthcare system is insurance-based.
It is a great irony that the broader mainstream 'left' has adopted pro-immigration stances and the de-regulation of the labour market. Thatcher and neoliberals (Reagan too) were initially v enthusiastic about the freedom of movement because they wanted to break the unions grip on the working class.
The UK adheres to a lot EU regulations, one of the big tasks in the transition period is removing all references to the EU/Commission and replacing with UK/His Majesty's Government. Hence the Tories (like Rees-Mogg) wanted to pass a bill that meant EU-era regulations automatically expired unless specifically kept on.Poland is an EU member, how can you say it is relatively deregulated compared to the UK?
and do not have NI because their healthcare system is insurance-based.
It is out of control and again why I said it should have happened before but is now too late. I don't have a solution, but keep bringing in more people and propping it up definitely isnt one of them. It's unsustainable. I asked for solutions, it seems all we have is pay more money or keep bringing people in. Neither of those can we afford to do, so we need to be a bit more imaginative.
One good thing about Poland is that it taxes capital gains significantly higher than it does income.
PWC seems to suggest that it is national insurance and payable by both employer and employee:Lol.
Point 1 is not compatible with mass migration and point 2 costs a lot of money and stretches the NHS further. Given the waiting lists and record people going abroad and private for treatment, it's asking too much at this moment in time.There are 2 routes to solve the issue really:
- hope that market forces results in more competition, bringing costs down and wages up.
- nationalise the care sector.
With both, the immediate issues are the startup cost involved, lack of availability of land in suitable areas and the fact we’re so far behind the demand curve that it’d take years and years to make a dent.
The norm in European countries where insurance is socialised and cover guaranteed. UK NI is a de facto income tax. I've explained myself v poorly tbf.PWC seems to suggest that it is national insurance and payable by both employer and employee:
Poland - Individual - Other taxes
Detailed description of other taxes impacting individuals in Polandtaxsummaries.pwc.com
Point 1 is not compatible with mass migration and point 2 costs a lot of money and stretches the NHS further. Given the waiting lists and record people going abroad and private for treatment, it's asking too much at this moment in time.
Exactly what are they measuring neither the average or median or salary measurements are terribly accurate predictions of real wealth.That average will also surely be distorted by the much higher pay in London won't it?
The OECD has a dataset of average wages converted into dollars and adjusted for PPP which puts the UK a smidge above the OECD average, still comfortably behind many Western European/Scandinavian/North American countries.That data is not accurate, it would have the average UK salary at £44k when the ONS says it is more like £37k
Employee earnings in the UK - Office for National Statistics
Measures of employee earnings, using data from the Annual Survey for Hours and Earnings (ASHE).www.ons.gov.uk
However, even with that, average pay is not consistent across the UK so in many regions the average salary is likely to be lower still than £37k.
If you convert that UK salary into Euros you see that average wages in the UK are lower than all of the developed northern European countries, the monthly average would be €3545.
The OECD has a dataset of average wages converted into dollars and adjusted for PPP which puts the UK a smidge above the OECD average, still comfortably behind many Western European/Scandinavian/North American countries.
Their debt to GDP ratio is 55%, the UK's is currently 96% - an increase of 15% in 10 years. Our budget deficit was ran up a lot higher when debt to GDP was 36.7% in 2000... So Poland really doesn't run the risk of a currency crisis, the UK actually does and France risks plunging the Euro into another Eurozone crisis.On the subject again of Poland, its budget deficit is 50% of its revenue. The UK deficit on the other hand is only a mere 5% of its revenue.
I'm glad you've finally agreed Mucca that deficit spending isn't a problem per se and can help to drive economic growth.
The UK like Poland issues its own currency and will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever face a debt crisis in any debt it has denominated in £.Their debt to GDP ratio is 55%, the UK's is currently 96% - an increase of 15% in 10 years. Our budget deficit was ran up a lot higher when debt to GDP was 36.7% in 2000... So Poland really doesn't run the risk of a currency crisis, the UK actually does and France risks plunging the Euro into another Eurozone crisis.
Didn't I say "currency crisis" rather than debt crisis?The UK like Poland issues its own currency and will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever face a debt crisis in any debt it has denominated in £.
France is different because it is a currency user.
That's why we don't listen to cows.Didn't I say "currency crisis" rather than debt crisis?
Even so, when you issue government bonds and the interest you pay increases (happening right now), it stresses your public finances and can escalate to debt crisis.
Not going to get dragged into it because we both know the UK could not run up a 50% budget deficit without consequence without bad economic consequences. It really is a moot point.
But if they had done that a generation ago before needing immigration we'd have had hugely increasing governmental costs covering the care/health sectors and massive tax rises (or even higher borrowing and therefore interest) to pay for it.It's nothing to do with paying care workers correctly, as I said it should have happened a generation ago before needing immigration to fill the gaps. At what rate do you think you'd now encourage people back into the industry bearing in mind minimum wage is now around £12.50 per hour?
Let's be flippant as an example and say its £20. What happens to all of the professions who are now earning less than £20 who jump ship? So they want a raise. Then their manager says well why I do more I want £25. The nurses get say I might as well work in care, so they get £20 and then the doctors say ok after all my training and for the responsibility I want more, so it goes right to the top. Oh hang on a minute, now care workers are still paid the least, but we've dragged the minimum wage up to £20 and how do we collect that, ah yes let's increase taxes. The business owner says now I have to pay my staff more and other costs have risen, so I need to put the price of the goods up so everything is more expensive. Can you see why this wouldn't work?
There is one pot of money however it's collected, there isn't enough to go round. What do you suggest?
Polish government interest payments are a higher proportion of its annual national income than the UK's are.Didn't I say "currency crisis" rather than debt crisis?
Even so, when you issue government bonds and the interest you pay increases (happening right now), it stresses your public finances and can escalate to debt crisis.
Not going to get dragged into it because we both know the UK could not run up a 50% budget deficit without consequence without bad economic consequences. It really is a moot point.
I cant argue as we can't go back, but unfortunately we now have that and still haven't solved the problem. At least that bit of pain back then might have now bore fruit.But if they had done that a generation ago before needing immigration we'd have had hugely increasing governmental costs covering the care/health sectors and massive tax rises (or even higher borrowing and therefore interest) to pay for it.
Economies of scale. If all the schools are under one authority then some of those contracts and services can be shared across all schools. With academies every single school has to have their own set-up and cover the admin, so would be more expensive. Hence why a lot of those running academies now have academy chains as they argue it's more efficient.Sorry - I still do not get it. The Councils would not have to have more administration costs at all?
And that's what we've been arguing for god-knows how long regarding needing higher taxes and really looking at reversing the flow of money upwards. We have to take some pain and upheaval now or we just have to have even more later. Yet all we get told is that we're living in cloud cuckoo land and it's too hard.I cant argue as we can't go back, but unfortunately we now have that and still haven't solved the problem. At least that bit of pain back then might have now bore fruit.
Economies of scale. If all the schools are under one authority then some of those contracts and services can be shared across all schools. With academies every single school has to have their own set-up and cover the admin, so would be more expensive. Hence why a lot of those running academies now have academy chains as they argue it's more efficient.
And even though many of the academies are technically 'not for profit' they still take out large amounts to pay 'executives' which is their way of getting around it.
Their debt to GDP ratio is 55%, the UK's is currently 96% - an increase of 15% in 10 years. Our budget deficit was ran up a lot higher when debt to GDP was 36.7% in 2000... So Poland really doesn't run the risk of a currency crisis, the UK actually does and France risks plunging the Euro into another Eurozone crisis.
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