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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (47 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 7:52 AM
  • #53,831
shmmeee said:
None of mine were “planned” she got pregnant and we decided to keep them. That’s pretty normal throughout history. That’s my entire point, the change started with the pill enabling people to “plan” and once they start overthinking it they convince themselves that they, an average earner in one of the richest economies in history, are too poor to have kids, or their partner isn’t perfect, or they need to work on their career right now.

Like quitting smoking it’s rare to find the perfect time to have kids. You just have them and life carries on.
Click to expand...

Yeah it's pretty sensible to have more control over when you bring a life into the world.

Which again is why it's a bad idea just want to rely on people who will fire as many kids as they can out with no thought about who will pay to bring them up.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 7:54 AM
  • #53,832
Nick said:
Yeah it's pretty sensible to have more control over when you bring a life into the world.

Which again is why it's a bad idea just want to rely on people who will fire as many kids as they can out with no thought about who will pay to bring them up.
Click to expand...

So sensible it’s causing huge economic and social problems worldwide.

Who will pay for you when you’ve decided it’s “sensible” for the birth rate to drop to where it is?

If you’ve not had at least two kids, you’re sponging off everyone else in retirement. Ideally more than two.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 7:57 AM
  • #53,833
Kids cost a lot less than OAPs guys.

In fact almost all kids are net revenue positive for the state cos they grow up and pay taxes.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 8:02 AM
  • #53,834
shmmeee said:
So sensible it’s causing huge economic and social problems worldwide.

Who will pay for you when you’ve decided it’s “sensible” for the birth rate to drop to where it is?

If you’ve not had at least two kids, you’re sponging off everyone else in retirement. Ideally more than two.
Click to expand...

I'll pay for me.

I doubt I'll retire until I'm about 70 anyway but I'm not sure how I'll be sponging anything.

Have a walk down to wetherspoons today to sponging.
 
Reactions: SBT and shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:02 AM
  • #53,835
Nick said:
I'll pay for me.

I doubt I'll retire until I'm about 70 anyway but I'm not sure how I'll be sponging anything.
Click to expand...

You planning to reveal your secret to perfect health to the scientific community or keeping it to yourself?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:04 AM
  • #53,836
There is one solution for economies hit by low birth rates who don’t want to raise taxes or magically find a way to encourage more children.

But I don’t think this thread will like it.

 

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 8:07 AM
  • #53,837
shmmeee said:
You planning to reveal your secret to perfect health to the scientific community or keeping it to yourself?
Click to expand...

Probably be even harder to get an appointment by then so will probably end up having to go private anyway.

Is it sponging for somebody who has worked for 50 plus years to use the nhs now?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 8:10 AM
  • #53,838
shmmeee said:
There is one solution for economies hit by low birth rates who don’t want to raise taxes or magically find a way to encourage more children.

But I don’t think this thread will like it.

View attachment 44613
Click to expand...

Like I said, you have an issue with people who have worked all their life but strangely want to draft people in to fire out kids with no intention of paying for them themselves.

How do you think this works for those kids and their kids when they realise they can just let the tax payer pay for everything?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:14 AM
  • #53,839
Nick said:
Like I said, you have an issue with people who have worked all their life but strangely want to draft people in to fire out kids with no intention of paying for them themselves.

How do you think this works for those kids and their kids when they realise they can just let the tax payer pay for everything?
Click to expand...

I think what the evidence shows: that generally those kids grow up and pay taxes that pay for mine and your retirement and keep our taxes lower when working.

You’re completely ass backwards on the economics of this. Because you’re trying to make what you see as a moral issue have some economic justification.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:14 AM
  • #53,840
Nick said:
Probably be even harder to get an appointment by then so will probably end up having to go private anyway.

Is it sponging for somebody who has worked for 50 plus years to use the nhs now?
Click to expand...

Why do you think old people cost the state a lot? It’s not cleaning up after all their parties.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 8:31 AM
  • #53,841
shmmeee said:
I think what the evidence shows: that generally those kids grow up and pay taxes that pay for mine and your retirement and keep our taxes lower when working.

You’re completely ass backwards on the economics of this. Because you’re trying to make what you see as a moral issue have some economic justification.
Click to expand...
Not really backwards.

Why aren't we all trying to move to the countries with high birth rates in Africa? Is the answer really to draft people in from these countries to just fire loads of kids out here without a care in the world because we will just pay for it all?
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Today at 8:35 AM
  • #53,842
Nick said:
Not really backwards.

Why aren't we all trying to move to the countries with high birth rates in Africa? Is the answer really to draft people in from these countries to just fire loads of kids out here without a care in the world because we will just pay for it all?
Click to expand...
I think he’s saying first and foremost that those already here should just have kids much younger and more often.
 
Reactions: shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:38 AM
  • #53,843
Nick said:
Not really backwards.

Why aren't we all trying to move to the countries with high birth rates in Africa? Is the answer really to draft people in from these countries to just fire loads of kids out here without a care in the world because we will just pay for it all?
Click to expand...

If you’ve got a better one apply to 1 Nobel Prize Way, Sweden for your prize.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 8:38 AM
  • #53,844
Sick Boy said:
I think he’s saying first and foremost that those already here should just have kids much younger and more often.
Click to expand...

I get that but who's paying for them?

It's harder for people to buy houses to live in with their kids, for starters. Childcare is expensive etc etc.

People are more aware of all of this nowadays.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 8:40 AM
  • #53,845
shmmeee said:
If you’ve got a better one apply to 1 Nobel Prize Way, Sweden for your prize.
Click to expand...
Nah, what we should do is look at countries like Somalia and just replicate it here.

It would be interesting to see if theres any stats on people from countries with high birth rates and how they're getting on in the UK. How many are working, how many live in funded houses, crime rates etc.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:42 AM
  • #53,846
Sick Boy said:
I think he’s saying first and foremost that those already here should just have kids much younger and more often.
Click to expand...

Not sure age matter much other than the fact that you’re more likely to become infertile but yeah. We need a way to sort out the inverted population pyramid and that’s either make the bottom bigger with births, make the middle bigger with immigration or get everyone in the middle paying a whole lot more than they’re used to to make up for the loss.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:43 AM
  • #53,847
Nick said:
Nah, what we should do is look at countries like Somalia and just replicate it here.

It would be interesting to see if theres any stats on people from countries with high birth rates and how they're getting on in the UK. How many are working, how many live in funded houses etc.
Click to expand...

Recent immigrants tend to start at similar family sizes and within a generation or two are roughly at the UK average. That’s assimilation for you.

I think you wildly overestimate how many people are living off the state Nick I’ll be honest. It’s not every single immigrant and everyone without a degree.
 
Reactions: SIR ERNIE

Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:44 AM
  • #53,848
shmmeee said:
Not sure age matter much other than the fact that you’re more likely to become infertile but yeah. We need a way to sort out the inverted population pyramid and that’s either make the bottom bigger with births, make the middle bigger with immigration or get everyone in the middle paying a whole lot more than they’re used to to make up for the loss.
Click to expand...
Im more likely to adopt. There are shit loads of kids in care at the moment and its costing a bomb.
 
Reactions: Nick

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 8:47 AM
  • #53,849
shmmeee said:
Recent immigrants tend to start at similar family sizes and within a generation or two are roughly at the UK average. That’s assimilation for you.

I think you wildly overestimate how many people are living off the state Nick I’ll be honest. It’s not every single immigrant and everyone without a degree.
Click to expand...
I haven't said anything about having a degree or not.

My point is about it you want to import people from countries with high birth rates to fire kids out and how are they getting on the UK?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:49 AM
  • #53,850
shmmeee said:
None of mine were “planned” she got pregnant and we decided to keep them. That’s pretty normal throughout history. That’s my entire point, the change started with the pill enabling people to “plan” and once they start overthinking it they convince themselves that they, an average earner in one of the richest economies in history, are too poor to have kids, or their partner isn’t perfect, or they need to work on their career right now.

Like quitting smoking it’s rare to find the perfect time to have kids. You just have them and life carries on.

What you find is that being on the pill is easy, getting an abortion isn’t and the maths changes massively when you’re deciding to get rid compared to deciding to stop taking the pill, even thought the question “am I ready to have kids now?” Is the same.
Click to expand...
Any woman who’s a teacher knows how much harder it is to progress in a school once you get pregnant, go on mat leave, return part time and then likely have to stay part time for a good while yet. That’s in part why we waited until the Mrs had got a bit up the ladder.

It’s not imagined, it’s the reality of women not being able to go back to work full time more quickly because of childcare.
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:49 AM
  • #53,851
shmmeee said:
leave your house and meet some poor people.
Click to expand...

I'll leave the poverty tourism for someone else and sidestep you making some pretty wild assumptions about who I am, upbringing etc. If your sample size for your position on this stuff is two people you know, that's a shaky argument.

I've not said anything there isn't evidence to support and I'm not running anyone down. You asked a question, I put fwd some possible answers. You've been a patronising pr*ck about it since and seem a bit close minded on this one.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:50 AM
  • #53,852
Nick said:
I haven't said anything about having a degree or not.

My point is about it you want to import people from countries with high birth rates to fire kids out and how are they getting on the UK?
Click to expand...

I want everyone to pay more taxes. You don’t want that. Grrrr taxes.

OK I want everyone to have more kids to the tax burden is shared more. You don’t want that. Grrr benefits.

OK I want us to accept we’ll have to bring working age immigrants in to share the tax burden. You don’t want that. Grrr immigrants.

OK we’ll have to cut pensioner benefits. Let’s start with giving money to the richest pensioners. You don’t want that. Grr Kier Starmer.

See the problem?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:50 AM
  • #53,853
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Any woman who’s a teacher knows how much harder it is to progress in a school once you get pregnant, go on mat leave, return part time and then likely have to stay part time for a good while yet. That’s in part why we waited until the Mrs had got a bit up the ladder.

It’s not imagined, it’s the reality of women not being able to go back to work full time more quickly because of childcare.
Click to expand...

I dunno my ex went from class teacher to ass head as a single mum working part time.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:53 AM
  • #53,854
shmmeee said:
I dunno my ex went from class teacher to ass head as a single mum working part time.
Click to expand...
Probably an exception to the rule. The only women I’ve known to make SMT have grown up or older teenage children.
 
Reactions: Ccfcisparks

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 9:00 AM
  • #53,855
mmttww said:
Old enough to work, old enough to vote
Click to expand...
But not to drink alcohol, smoke, buy knives or firearms, buy land or property, place bets, buy fireworks, join the police or fire service, view or buy X rated films, serve on a jury, be hypnotised, buy cigarettes, donate blood, get a tattoo or serve on a jury.
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 9:07 AM
  • #53,856
Captain Dart said:
be hypnotised...
Click to expand...

Keir Stalin at it again.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 9:43 AM
  • #53,857
shmmeee said:
You planning to reveal your secret to perfect health to the scientific community or keeping it to yourself?
Click to expand...
That's a good plan until it isn't. My experience, both with myself and with my Dad, is that once you hit a certain age once one health issue comes along others aren't far behind.

We've got a generation approaching retirement age who won't get much by the way of inheritance as it will have all gone on their parents care costs, many without enough in their pension pot, kids needing help with uni & getting on the housing ladder, a crumbling NHS, a disaster of a care system. Hard not to see a huge problem rapidly approaching.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:00 AM
  • #53,858
So which is it? Is having kids expensive and unaffordable or does it lead to a life of luxury paid for by the state?
 

Marty

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:20 AM
  • #53,859
Infinite Somalians for everyone.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:50 AM
  • #53,860
Marty said:
Infinite Somalians for everyone.
Click to expand...

Babies for some Somalians for others?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:53 AM
  • #53,861
Captain Dart said:
But not to drink alcohol, smoke, buy knives or firearms, buy land or property, place bets, buy fireworks, join the police or fire service, view or buy X rated films, serve on a jury, be hypnotised, buy cigarettes, donate blood, get a tattoo or serve on a jury.
Click to expand...

Old enough to do all that but can’t get insurance through Saga or claim the state pension or rent a van

All the arguments are silly aren’t they really? But as we need an age let’s just make it 18 when you’re an adult and the government considers you an autonomous being.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:59 AM
  • #53,862
mmttww said:
I'll leave the poverty tourism for someone else and sidestep you making some pretty wild assumptions about who I am, upbringing etc. If your sample size for your position on this stuff is two people you know, that's a shaky argument.

I've not said anything there isn't evidence to support and I'm not running anyone down. You asked a question, I put fwd some possible answers. You've been a patronising pr*ck about it since and seem a bit close minded on this one.
Click to expand...

Im saying that just calling everyone who has kids at a sustainable rate stupid is a pretty wild generalisation.

If choice and education lead to a species that can’t sustain itself what do you do about that?

People were telling me it’s 100% about finances. I only brought up poorer people having more kids and poorer countries having more kids as a reposte to that. Being wealthier clearly makes you have fewer kids on average.

The response was that well they’re all stupid and religious. Which frankly I find pretty fucking appalling considering it’s come from the progressive side of this thread. Are you really so smart if you end up extinct?
 

Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 11:07 AM
  • #53,863
shmmeee said:
Im saying that just calling everyone who has kids at a sustainable rate stupid is a pretty wild generalisation.

If choice and education lead to a species that can’t sustain itself what do you do about that?

People were telling me it’s 100% about finances. I only brought up poorer people having more kids and poorer countries having more kids as a reposte to that. Being wealthier clearly makes you have fewer kids on average.

The response was that well they’re all stupid and religious. Which frankly I find pretty fucking appalling considering it’s come from the progressive side of this thread. Are you really so smart if you end up extinct?
Click to expand...
extinction lol
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 11:08 AM
  • #53,864
shmmeee said:
The response was that well they’re all stupid and religious. Which frankly I find pretty fucking appalling considering it’s come from the progressive side of this thread.
Click to expand...

I didn't say anything close to that and didn't mention religion. I get you're close to the subject and can't be perfect when you want to reply to a bunch of posts but chucking generalisations or assumptions back at people ain't the way.
 
Last edited: Today at 12:52 PM

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 12:37 PM
  • #53,865
chiefdave said:
So which is it? Is having kids expensive and unaffordable or does it lead to a life of luxury paid for by the state?
Click to expand...
Think you have completely missed the point and what's been said

It's not expensive if people let others take care of the cost.

You will be saying people don't do that next.
 
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