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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (22 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 8:42 AM
  • #53,236
Marty said:
Sounds like an utterly awful trade off. From their perspective 5 years of work for a lifetime of leaching looks incredible.
Click to expand...
Is there any evidence that people are even doing this?

Can’t tell if the shift from “Bloody immigrants never want to work” to “Bloody immigrants only want to work for five solid years” is a sign of progress, or a sign that it’s not actually about whether these people have jobs.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 9:24 AM
  • #53,237
This forum makes me laugh sometimes. A few pages back we were having a discussion about how the country is going downhill and one of the things that came up was piss poor wages leading to people who are qualified in certain things leaving the country to get better pay.

Move forward a few pages and its outrage at the idea anyone gets a payrise or we consider increasing minimum wage.

We've got to the point where posters who I think we would all say lean to the right are so close to joining the dots and taking a left wing stance
 
Reactions: Sick Boy, Sky_Blue_Dreamer, fernandopartridge and 2 others
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 9:45 AM
  • #53,238
chiefdave said:
This forum makes me laugh sometimes. A few pages back we were having a discussion about how the country is going downhill and one of the things that came up was piss poor wages leading to people who are qualified in certain things leaving the country to get better pay.

Move forward a few pages and its outrage at the idea anyone gets a payrise or we consider increasing minimum wage.

We've got to the point where posters who I think we would all say lean to the right are so close to joining the dots and taking a left wing stance
Click to expand...
Next week it’ll be back to ‘Why aren’t there enough doctors to get me a GP appointment’
 
Reactions: chiefdave

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 9:53 AM
  • #53,239
chiefdave said:
This forum makes me laugh sometimes. A few pages back we were having a discussion about how the country is going downhill and one of the things that came up was piss poor wages leading to people who are qualified in certain things leaving the country to get better pay.

Move forward a few pages and its outrage at the idea anyone gets a payrise or we consider increasing minimum wage.

We've got to the point where posters who I think we would all say lean to the right are so close to joining the dots and taking a left wing stance
Click to expand...

Most quote the Australian system. If we adopted that people would be bleating they have to get private health cover for the best treatment
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:03 AM
  • #53,240
When people compare doctors starting salaries are they factoring in the cost of training. We're being told to ignore the likes of Australia and the US and instead compare with countries that pay new starters less.

But are the new starters in those countries starting with effectively an additional tax burden due to £50K+ in student loans, and its only as low as £50K if the only loans they have taken are for fees.

I would guess the reason people compare to Australia and the US are they are English speaking countries actively recruiting newly qualified staff from the UK.

The government regular throws out statements like 'we will recruit 10K more doctors', near impossible to do when the level of wages mean they are happy to leave to work in other countries for better pay & conditions.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:14 AM
  • #53,241
Mucca Mad Boys said:
For minimum wage work, you can literally get more living on benefits after tax. A minimum wage worker would be on about £22.5k after tax whereas UC with housing benefit and PIP would be £25k. Credit: Centre for Social Justice (CSJ). Faced with that decision, who wouldn’t live off the state?
Click to expand...
How is this possible? My doctor recommended that I leave my job for health reasons. Essentially a quit your job or the stress will end up killing you conversation.

I looked into how much I could get. Being hugely optimistic about how a health assessment would go the total I would get came to £782.87 a month, although £289.13 of that would be via a government loan and not payable for the first 9 months.

That means for the first 9 months my total entitlement on this luxary benefits life would be £150 per month less than my housing costs alone, after 9 months I would have about £130 a month after housing costs, but be building debt to the government at a rate of £3.5K a year.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:15 AM
  • #53,242
chiefdave said:
When people compare doctors starting salaries are they factoring in the cost of training. We're being told to ignore the likes of Australia and the US and instead compare with countries that pay new starters less.

But are the new starters in those countries starting with effectively an additional tax burden due to £50K+ in student loans, and its only as low as £50K if the only loans they have taken are for fees.

I would guess the reason people compare to Australia and the US are they are English speaking countries actively recruiting newly qualified staff from the UK.

The government regular throws out statements like 'we will recruit 10K more doctors', near impossible to do when the level of wages mean they are happy to leave to work in other countries for better pay & conditions.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. It’s very different country by country. So here you can go straight onto a medicine degree from A-Levels it seems but in the states and some others you do medical school after your degree. Our normal degrees are a year shorter but medical degrees are longer than their med school. Then they go straight into residency but we have two years of foundational training first and their residency can be shorter.

All in most developed nations seem to take roughly 10-11 years all in.

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I think a key line there is that British doctors are respected worldwide. I imagine that it’s very easy to up and move to another country for good money. Then like you say the question of how we tax graduates and high earners compared to some countries.

Ultimately if we aren’t recruiting and retaining enough we need to offer more as it’s an international market. And we steal from poorer countries in the same way.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:19 AM
  • #53,243
British doctors lost overseas every year is typically between 4-5k. Main reason for leaving is pay and conditions. Average intake of foreign doctors every year is typically around 6K a year. Maybe we should start paying them better and improve their conditions, that way we may lose less doctors overseas and be less reliant on imported doctors. Might actually encourage more people to take it up as a profession.

Isn’t it funny also that commentators and people in general who are vocal against decent pay rises for doctors always seem to be the most vocal against immigration? Go figure.
 
Reactions: Brighton Sky Blue

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 10:23 AM
  • #53,244
chiefdave said:
How is this possible? My doctor recommended that I leave my job for health reasons. Essentially a quit your job or the stress will end up killing you conversation.

I looked into how much I could get. Being hugely optimistic about how a health assessment would go the total I would get came to £782.87 a month, although £289.13 of that would be via a government loan and not payable for the first 9 months.

That means for the first 9 months my total entitlement on this luxary benefits life would be £150 per month less than my housing costs alone, after 9 months I would have about £130 a month after housing costs, but be building debt to the government at a rate of £3.5K a year.
Click to expand...

Guess he means this?

Unemployed on sickness benefits paid more than minimum wage workers

A Universal Credit claimant who is not working and claims housing payments and PIP for ill health will receive £25,000 next year, according to research
www.standard.co.uk

Not sure how viable.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:23 AM
  • #53,245
shmmeee said:
This is interesting. It’s very different country by country. So here you can go straight onto a medicine degree from A-Levels it seems but in the states and some others you do medical school after your degree. Our normal degrees are a year shorter but medical degrees are longer than their med school. Then they go straight into residency but we have two years of foundational training first and their residency can be shorter.

All in most developed nations seem to take roughly 10-11 years all in.

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We Help IMGs From Different Countries Succeed Faster in the USA & Canada
www.imgsecrets.com

I think a key line there is that British doctors are respected worldwide. I imagine that it’s very easy to up and move to another country for good money. Then like you say the question of how we tax graduates and high earners compared to some countries.

Ultimately if we aren’t recruiting and retaining enough we need to offer more as it’s an international market. And we steal from poorer countries in the same way.
Click to expand...
A woman I know has just done a degree in nursing, £70k debt. What sort of country are we living in really?
 
Reactions: Sick Boy and Mucca Mad Boys

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 10:25 AM
  • #53,246
skybluetony176 said:
British doctors lost overseas every year is typically between 4-5k. Main reason for leaving is pay and conditions. Average intake of foreign doctors every year is typically around 6K a year. Maybe we should start paying them better and improve their conditions, that way we may lose less doctors overseas and be less reliant on imported doctors. Might actually encourage more people to take it up as a profession.

Isn’t it funny also that commentators and people in general who are vocal against decent pay rises for doctors always seem to be the most vocal against immigration? Go figure.
Click to expand...

You do realise the difference between Doctors and Nurses coming to the UK to work and somebody with no intention to ever work and just sponge?

It's almost as if somebody could totally back the first bit but be against the second bit.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:26 AM
  • #53,247
Nick said:
Guess he means this?

Unemployed on sickness benefits paid more than minimum wage workers

A Universal Credit claimant who is not working and claims housing payments and PIP for ill health will receive £25,000 next year, according to research
www.standard.co.uk

Not sure how viable.
Click to expand...
Housing benefit bill is massive because the private rental sector is, housing benefit is acting as an indirect subsidy to all the parasite landlords
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:28 AM
  • #53,248
Mucca Mad Boys said:
You can’t have your cake and eat it.

Either accept the salary is going to be lower until retirement or be willing to potentially opt out of that to get paid more month-to-month.

The way you and others talk about this is as if there is an endless money tree. How does this all get paid for?

Government debt interest already costs the treasury £100+ bn every year. The total bill for public sector pension liabilities is £2.6 trillion (direct from the treasury) and growing.
Click to expand...
CEO's etc. (and top level civil servants) get high wages, massive pension contributions as well as stock options and numerous other perks and benefits.

Why should normal workers just getting by have to accept making their current situation even harder in exchange for a small amount in the future (which for all they know they may never see) when those at the top telling them it's unaffordable get all that and more?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 10:29 AM
  • #53,249
fernandopartridge said:
A woman I know has just done a degree in nursing, £70k debt. What sort of country are we living in really?
Click to expand...

I do think for jobs where you HAVE to have a degree it's madness.

While people are fresh from uni, let's say they are 24 / 25. Instead of the huge pension contribution can't the NHS just throw money at their debt instead or something like that?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:29 AM
  • #53,250
fernandopartridge said:
Housing benefit bill is massive because the private rental sector is, housing benefit is acting as an indirect subsidy to all the parasite landlords
Click to expand...

Same for someone working though TBF, which is the point.

Just to say (AI nonsense but I know the figures are roughly correct from other research)

 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:30 AM
  • #53,251
Lamps said:
Do you think train drivers on over 1k a week get paid enough? They don't think so. The next lot of threatened strikes will be in about 6 months.
Click to expand...
When people talk about average train driver pay you have to factor in that you're talking about an industry which has built up an operational model entirely reliant on overtime.

There is a massive shortage of drivers. Anyone who uses the trains regularly will be able to tell you about cancellations due to there being no available driver.

But here's the problem. Being a train driver can't be that hard right? Well if you look into the training there's far more to it than you might expect, largely because drivers are responsible for a huge percentage of train safety checks. But if that doesn't put you off and you want to apply for a trainee driver place you're going to hit a problem, they are virtually non-existent.

TOCs don't want to pay the cost of training new drivers, so unless you have the money to put yourself through private training you're fucked. So we have a very limited number of new drivers coming into the industry while the older drivers are retiring. Therefore the pool of available staff are being asked to work additional hours, for which they are rightly paid, and people then complain that drivers are paid too much.

The proposed solution to this is not, as you may think, to recruit and train more drivers, its to expect existing drivers to accept new contracts that restrict the amount they are paid in overtime.

Also important when talking about potential rail strikes to distinguish between strikes purely over pay and strikes over proposals to reduce safety standards. The later is something we implemented in the past and led to an increase in 'incidents' so the idea we do it again under the guise of modernisation seems crazy.
 
Reactions: skybluetony176 and Brighton Sky Blue
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:33 AM
  • #53,252
Nick said:
I do think for jobs where you HAVE to have a degree it's madness.

While people are fresh from uni, let's say they are 24 / 25. Instead of the huge pension contribution can't the NHS just throw money at their debt instead or something like that?
Click to expand...
Midwife and nurse training used to be paid for, don’t think it still is. I was also charged £9k to do teacher training despite having already had to do a degree to get on the course.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:37 AM
  • #53,253
Brighton Sky Blue said:
I was also charged £9k to do teacher training despite having already had to do a degree to get on the course.
Click to expand...
And now left the industry. I think you should be made to pay it back
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:38 AM
  • #53,254
rob9872 said:
And now left the industry. I think you should be made to pay it back
Click to expand...
I paid it
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:39 AM
  • #53,255
Nick said:
You do realise the difference between Doctors and Nurses coming to the UK to work and somebody with no intention to ever work and just sponge?

It's almost as if somebody could totally back the first bit but be against the second bit.
Click to expand...
Aren’t immigrant spongers lower than the uk average for spongers?

Surely it depends on how you define sponging also. Immigrants on minimum wages doing the jobs we don’t want to may be in receipt of benefits to assist their housing costs for example. Are they spongers? Or is it just the price to pay to keep the country ticking over and everything working from social care to making sure that we can eat out once in a while?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 10:40 AM
  • #53,256
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Midwife and nurse training used to be paid for, don’t think it still is. I was also charged £9k to do teacher training despite having already had to do a degree to get on the course.
Click to expand...

I think with things like midwives, the amount of money being wasted then why not cover the costs. Obviously condition it by saying if you do one to the private sector or abroad then you need to pay for the training.

If somebody is fresh from uni and they start a job and they are getting 20 odd percent pension contributions, what's to stop the NHS from saying they will give them 10 but the other 10 gets thrown at their student debt?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 10:41 AM
  • #53,257
skybluetony176 said:
Aren’t immigrant spongers lower than the uk average for spongers?

Surely it depends on how you define sponging also. Immigrants on minimum wages doing the jobs we don’t want to may be in receipt of benefits to assist their housing costs for example. Are they spongers? Or is it just the price to pay to keep the country ticking over and everything working from social care to making sure that we can eat out once in a while?
Click to expand...

As I have said many times, I'd happily ship british spongers off to Rwanda too and just have people here who want to graft (if they actually can).
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:43 AM
  • #53,258
Nick said:
I think with things like midwives, the amount of money being wasted then why not cover the costs. Obviously condition it by saying if you do one to the private sector or abroad then you need to pay for the training.

If somebody is fresh from uni and they start a job and they are getting 20 odd percent pension contributions, what's to stop the NHS from saying they will give them 10 but the other 10 gets thrown at their student debt?
Click to expand...
Sure, offer it to them. Personally
I would rather have the money built up for retirement.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 10:46 AM
  • #53,259
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Sure, offer it to them. Personally
I would rather have the money built up for retirement.
Click to expand...

For midwives, nurses etc then let's face it their tuition fees are small change considering the bigger picture aren't they?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:50 AM
  • #53,260
Nick said:
For midwives, nurses etc then let's face it their tuition fees are small change considering the bigger picture aren't they?
Click to expand...
I agree, so let’s pay it for them.
 
Reactions: Sick Boy

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:50 AM
  • #53,261
Nick said:
As I have said many times, I'd happily ship british spongers off to Rwanda too and just have people here who want to graft (if they actually can).
Click to expand...
Again, how are you defining spongers? About 30% of claimants are in work. About 40% of claimants are on disabilities. About 10% of claimants are short term claimants ie less than 3 months. Sure we all have a personal anecdote about someone who’s never worked but they are in a minority of claimants. There’s a difference between assistance and sponging. You seem incapable of understanding that.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 10:54 AM
  • #53,262
skybluetony176 said:
Again, how are you defining spongers? About 30% of claimants are in work. About 40% of claimants are on disabilities. About 10% of claimants are short term claimants ie less than 3 months. Sure we all have a personal anecdote about someone who’s never worked but they are in a minority of claimants. There’s a difference between assistance and sponging. You seem incapable of understanding that.
Click to expand...

It's probably why I used the term sponging....

I mean people who have no intention to ever work or clearly play the system.
People who fire out as many kids as they can with no thought on how they will pay for their upbringing.

2 examples.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:56 AM
  • #53,263
fernandopartridge said:
Housing benefit bill is massive because the private rental sector is, housing benefit is acting as an indirect subsidy to all the parasite landlords
Click to expand...
That's great if you're renting, although its capped isn't it and often below what you're actually paying in the real world. I don't exactly live in a mansion but the housing benefit cap would be about £400 a month less than rents round here.

And of course that assumes everyone who suddenly finds themselves out of work rents, if you own your own home and pay a mortgage you get pretty much fuck all.

Seems that the think tank piece has cherry picked a set of circumstances to ensure the benefits cap doesn't apply. Not sure how realistic that is.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 10:59 AM
  • #53,264
skybluetony176 said:
Again, how are you defining spongers? About 30% of claimants are in work. About 40% of claimants are on disabilities. About 10% of claimants are short term claimants ie less than 3 months. Sure we all have a personal anecdote about someone who’s never worked but they are in a minority of claimants. There’s a difference between assistance and sponging. You seem incapable of understanding that.
Click to expand...
You know what he means.

There are lots of people playing the system. I know Public Sector workers who take huge advantage of the sick-pay scheme. They might not be claiming benefit to be in your figures, but are absolutely being paid by the general public to do nothing but sit on their lay asses at home. There are also plenty of scumbags who do claim with big TVs and iphones, down the pub, smoke but not feeding or clothing their kids adequately.

Part of the problem is they do nothing for their benefits and have no incentive to better themselves. If you can claim £200 for doing nothing, but can work a full week to come out with say £250 then who want's to do full-time for £50 extra? Make them earn the first part, cleaning the streets etc and then there's an incentive to better themselves. Currently they'd ather claim and do a bit of cash in hand to top it up.
 
Reactions: Nick

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 11:04 AM
  • #53,265
rob9872 said:
You know what he means.

There are lots of people playing the system. I know Public Sector workers who take huge advantage of the sick-pay scheme. They might not be claiming benefit to be in your figures, but are absolutely being paid by the general public to do nothing but sit on their lay asses at home. There are also plenty of scumbags who do claim with big TVs and iphones, down the pub, smoke but not feeding or clothing their kids adequately.

Part of the problem is they do nothing for their benefits and have no incentive to better themselves. If you can claim £200 for doing nothing, but can work a full week to come out with say £250 then who want's to do full-time for £50 extra? Make them earn the first part, cleaning the streets etc and then there's an incentive to better themselves. Currently they'd ather claim and do a bit of cash in hand to top it up.
Click to expand...

The issue is, some don't believe that there are people who rinse it / take the piss.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 11:09 AM
  • #53,266
rob9872 said:
Make them earn the first part, cleaning the streets etc and then there's an incentive to better themselves. Currently they'd ather claim and do a bit of cash in hand to top it up.
Click to expand...
We tried this a few years back, it was called work fare and it was a complete disaster. The end result was essentially big employers enrolled in the scheme replacing low paid staff with people on the work fare scheme knowing the government would pay them rather than the employer.

So it was replaced by help to work where people were made to do community work. It costs hundreds of millions and made fuck all difference to the number of people claiming benefits.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 11:16 AM
  • #53,267
chiefdave said:
We tried this a few years back, it was called work fare and it was a complete disaster. The end result was essentially big employers enrolled in the scheme replacing low paid staff with people on the work fare scheme knowing the government would pay them rather than the employer.

So it was replaced by help to work where people were made to do community work. It costs hundreds of millions and made fuck all difference to the number of people claiming benefits.
Click to expand...
I wasn't aware of that, although why am I not surprised that some took advantage

It doesn't matter what the subject, some always will look for loopholes. I still think there must be a refined version that would be worth a revisit.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 11:16 AM
  • #53,268
rob9872 said:
You know what he means.

There are lots of people playing the system. I know Public Sector workers who take huge advantage of the sick-pay scheme. They might not be claiming benefit to be in your figures, but are absolutely being paid by the general public to do nothing but sit on their lay asses at home. There are also plenty of scumbags who do claim with big TVs and iphones, down the pub, smoke but not feeding or clothing their kids adequately.

Part of the problem is they do nothing for their benefits and have no incentive to better themselves. If you can claim £200 for doing nothing, but can work a full week to come out with say £250 then who want's to do full-time for £50 extra? Make them earn the first part, cleaning the streets etc and then there's an incentive to better themselves. Currently they'd ather claim and do a bit of cash in hand to top it up.
Click to expand...
If you work and get paid for benefits, you're a part time government employee. The social safety net isn't supposed to be conditional, then again we had Tories in the last government suggesting pensioners should be put to work to keep getting their payments too.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Today at 11:18 AM
  • #53,269
rob9872 said:
I wasn't aware of that, although why am I not surprised that some took advantage

It doesn't matter what the subject, some always will look for loopholes. I still think there must be a refined version that would be worth a revisit.
Click to expand...
the one group of benefits recipients we did do it for, and who it was a success for, was those with learning disabilities. So of course those schemes were scrapped.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Today at 11:18 AM
  • #53,270
Brighton Sky Blue said:
If you work and get paid for benefits, you're a part time government employee. The social safety net isn't supposed to be conditional, then again we had Tories in the last government suggesting pensioners should be put to work to keep getting their payments too.
Click to expand...

That's why he said:

Part of the problem is they do nothing for their benefits
Click to expand...

Although let's face it, some people will make more if they choose to work the set number of hours to then maximise their benefit income. It isn't worth it to work full time.
 
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