Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Great point
The call centres are all hybrid so some are in office some are at home
Great pointIf you spoke to a human at HMRC would you really know if they were office based or wfh?
We can work from home 5 days a week if we want. It's great and the company benefits massively from happy staff, a wider pool of applicants and reduced costs.There’s clearly a balance to be struck which is why most workplaces does a hybrid go 3:2. I don’t disagree with much of this and 5 office days a week for me wouldn’t be practical.
In relation to the civil service, the specific issue here is that the public sector productivity is declining. In fact, it’s still 4.6% below pandemic levels in the medium term (and remains below 1997 levels). Labour argued that public sector pay rises would boost lagging productivity and so far, this hasn’t done anything. That’s without considering we’ve added 600k workers to the public sector.
The ramifications of this is that the state is going to continually raising spending for the same output. Which begets tax raises that will fall predominantly on the private sector and workers in that sector.
So yeah, public sector worker productivity absolutely need to be scrutinised much more closer than in the private sector. That’s just a reality.
Why? If an unproductive private business becomes uncompetitive and fails… the cost doesn’t fall on us directly.
100% agree, but it is at least a first step in the right direction.Pleased its passed. suspect there will be a lot of scrutiny and suggestions from the Lords but its a step in the right direction.
Personally I think not having anything in there for dementia is a glaring omission. Every relative I speak to at my Dads care home says the same thing 'they wouldn't have wanted to end up like this'.
I think anyone who has been through dementia with a family member would struggle to give you any positives in keeping someone alive past a certain point. Sure a lot of people don't realise, as I didn't prior to experiencing it with my Dad, how much distress people with dementia are often in.
My Dad is into year 3. He can't hear, can't see, doesn't understand where he is, doesn't recognise any family members and is bed bound. His quality of life is below zero, you really reach a point where you start asking who this is benefiting.
We can work from home 5 days a week if we want. It's great and the company benefits massively from happy staff, a wider pool of applicants and reduced costs.
I reckon cheap outsourcing of labour has much more of an impact that wfh on the private sectorAs a whole, the public sector productivity isn’t recovering expected. It was more productive in 1997 than it is now.
I don’t think everyone being in the office would automatically fix that, but the figures in the public sector are particularly damning and something needs to change drastically.
The private sector productivity in this country isn’t particularly strong either. The UK is now the WFH capital of Europe (if not the developed economies).
I reckon cheap outsourcing of labour has much more of an impact that wfh on the private sector
Is productivity really relevant or helpful as a measure of success when you're talking about delivering public services? We've got waiting lists etc. for that.
Feels like talking about GDP as 'the' measure of how well the economy is doing. 'GDP is up by 0.3%!'. Cool, food still costs 20% more than two years ago.
I reckon cheap outsourcing of labour has much more of an impact that wfh on the private sector
It’s pretty meaningless in the public sector, and where it’s not it’s almost always down to lack of capital investment (IT in the NHS wasting everyone’s time for example).
Tell me how productivity has gone down in education?Let’s assume that’s true. The public sector was providing the same services in 1997 (healthcare, teaching, policing and so on) so explain how it’s not a bad thing that productivity has gone down?!
We’ve had a tech revolution so how productivity hasn’t gone up should worry anyone.
Read an article in the FT recently that said exactly that. Measuring public sector productivity is a largely meaningless exercise and comparing it to private sector, which isn’t calculated the same way is pointless.It’s pretty meaningless in the public sector, and where it’s not it’s almost always down to lack of capital investment (IT in the NHS wasting everyone’s time for example).
Read an article in the FT recently that said exactly that. Measuring public sector productivity is a largely meaningless exercise and comparing it to private sector, which isn’t calculated the same way is pointless.
Article suggested that after years of austerity to then turn round and question why the public sector isn’t ‘productive’ and then blame the workers is absolute insanity.
What does this actually mean?You’ve got record levels of funding and increasing headcount in the public sector whilst less services are being delivered..
What's the benchmark for "levels of funding" and why is it relevant?How is it meaningless? This is nonsensical point to make.
You’ve got record levels of funding and increasing headcount in the public sector whilst less services are being delivered.
You can blame ‘austerity’ as the boogey man but frankly, funding for the NHS and other areas still increased.
How anyone can look at public sector productivity being lower now than 1997 and being ok or saying ‘it’s meaningless’ is bewildering. Barely anyone had mobile phones or reliable internet back then.
How is it meaningless? This is nonsensical point to make.
You’ve got record levels of funding and increasing headcount in the public sector whilst less services are being delivered.
You can blame ‘austerity’ as the boogey man but frankly, funding for the NHS and other areas still increased.
How anyone can look at public sector productivity being lower now than 1997 and being ok or saying ‘it’s meaningless’ is bewildering. Barely anyone had mobile phones or reliable internet back then.
How is it meaningless? This is nonsensical point to make.
You’ve got record levels of funding and increasing headcount in the public sector whilst less services are being delivered.
You can blame ‘austerity’ as the boogey man but frankly, funding for the NHS and other areas still increased.
How anyone can look at public sector productivity being lower now than 1997 and being ok or saying ‘it’s meaningless’ is bewildering. Barely anyone had mobile phones or reliable internet back then.
Not in real terms. The NHS also had to take up the slack from other areas. The obvious one being mental health services pre austerity largely being supported by local authorities. The NHS, police and prison service all had to pick up the slack at a time when the police force lost 10,000 officers. The prisons are full for a reason.You can blame ‘austerity’ as the boogey man but frankly, funding for the NHS and other areas still increased.
It's not chucking money at it solves everything, it's that the measures of success are completely different.There’s some that think just chucking extra money at the problem solves everything*, never inwardly looking to see how the money is spent and asking whether people are doing their jobs effectively. To the point where Ian (sorry Ian but this springs to mind) seemingly threw out that underfunding might’ve been one of the main contributing factors in the Grooming scandal even though problems started early 2000s and initial findings suggest ethnicity and people not doing their jobs were the main issues
Just makes me wonder if there is any real accountability in certain elements of the public sector, such as NHS, police and the councils. Do a shit job**, blame funding. Both can be the problem and both need solving. if it’s just extra cash that’s thrown at it and we’re not then seeing an improving delivery of services, the social contract between tax payer and state will break and that’s when you get your Reforms of this world coming into play
I’m personally willing to see where we are in 4 years as these things take time but I do have some concerns
*of course it helps massively but if you’re not careful huge amounts can get wasted without noticeable improvements
**not necessarily through lack of effort but some of the processes etc
Does there not come a point, maybe after 14 years of efficiency savings, that you stop thinking the answer to the problem of a huge decrease in the performance of pubic services in the last 14 years is more efficiency savings?There’s some that think just chucking extra money at the problem solves everything, never inwardly looking to see how the money is spent and asking whether people are doing their jobs effectively. To the point where Ian (sorry Ian but this springs to mind) seemingly threw out that underfunding might’ve been one of the main contributing factors in the Grooming scandal even though problems started early 2000s and initial findings suggest ethnicity and people not doing their jobs were the main issues
Potentially there's also an issue here that the less complex, and therefore more efficient, and profitable, parts of the public sector have been moved to private providers. While what is left of public sector is left to pick up the complex, and expensive, roles nobody else wants to deal with.How do you measure frontline NHS productivity when each patient will require differing amounts of care and treatment?
It's not chucking money at it solves everything, it's that the measures of success are completely different.
How do you measure frontline NHS productivity when each patient will require differing amounts of care and treatment? Is someone dealing with a very complex, rare illness or cancer being 'unproductive' because it takes up a lot of time and they should just ignore it for easy cases so they look like they're getting stuff done? Should teachers ignore the less able kids in class because it's not a 'productive' use of their time?
At this point I expect you'll say "I'm talking about admin staff etc". Well I have done an admin public sector role and I can tell you it can be so much harder to get stuff done than in business. You're often dealing with the most vulnerable, those who aren't particularly intelligent, the elderly who need help. Do you have any idea how long it can take to understand what they want or get a simple message/instruction across in those circumstances? I could probably deal with half a dozen queries when working in accounting to every one I dealt with in public sector. And with things going ever more online trying to direct some of those people to the relevant places I can only imagine it's getting even harder.
Fair enough. Personally I think we're going to be years off seeing substantial results given how fucked everything is. We're at the slowing the tanker down stage, still a long way off the turning it round stage.Dave - just seen your reply before posting the above. you’ve misread/misunderstood what i said. I’m not talking about efficiency savings, I want more investment as I’ve stated, I just want it spent wisely and to see improvements for the extra money being spent.
I think you have misinterpreted me here.There’s some that think just chucking extra money at the problem solves everything*, never inwardly looking to see how the money is spent and asking whether people are doing their jobs effectively. To the point where Ian (sorry Ian but this springs to mind) seemingly threw out that underfunding might’ve been one of the main contributing factors in the Grooming scandal even though problems started early 2000s and initial findings suggest ethnicity and people not doing their jobs were the main issues
Saw it with my ex where she worked in the NHS. She worked in a specialise service for young people with mental health issues at risk of offending, and we're talking serious offences like murder. Their department was hugely successful to the point that people would visit from around the world to attempt to duplicate their success.I think you have misinterpreted me here.
I merely hypothesised that services that have not been able to recruit and retain adequately such as police and social workers are by definition underfunded - maybe have not been as effective as they should have been.
I think you have misinterpreted me here.
I merely hypothesised that services that have not been able to recruit and retain adequately such as police and social workers are by definition underfunded - maybe have not been as effective as they should have been.
Saw it with my ex where she worked in the NHS. She worked in a specialise service for young people with mental health issues at risk of offending, and we're talking serious offences like murder. Their department was hugely successful to the point that people would visit from around the world to attempt to duplicate their success.
Austerity arrived and 'efficiencies' were made. That meant a freeze on recruitment, allowing them to run down staff levels while publicly stating that nobody had been made redundant. Then they were merged in with general mental health services.
Throughout all this the staff gave repeated warnings that what was being proposed would mean they couldn't deliver the service to the same standard and there would likely be tragic consequences. You know the sort of thing, something happens and you get told 'known to mental health services' and they take the blame despite it meaning little more than they were on a long waiting list.
Sure enough the 'efficiencies' were pushed through and within a matter of months there was a murder. Of course there was then an inquiry and inadequate mental health provision was citied. But nothing changed. Pretty much everyone that worked there has now been recruited to work overseas.
Under funding is just the go to excuse when people don't do their jobs properly.
It's also the go to when things are under funded.Under funding is just the go to excuse when people don't do their jobs properly.
I know hes notorious on here, but a whole documentary on Grendel seems excessive! Thats gonna do his ego a world of good!Grendel documentary is a powerful piece of tv
If no one is held criminally responsible for that no one will ever be held criminally responsible for anything ever period
EditedI know hes notorious on here, but a whole documentary on Grendel seems excessive! Thats gonna do his ego a world of good!
Depends on the person, doesn't it?But they were doing them properly before?
Would be easy, I'd just not bother and claim under funding when people i didn't report things or do my job.It's also the go to when things are under funded.
Become a care worker and we'll see if you're just not doing your job properly.
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