Court Match Thread

[Liquid Gold]

It is time to forget about the legals and get behind the lads. Lets have an enjoyable season in Division 4. Lets enjoy going to grounds where the Butts would compare nicely. It is time to party at games. We deserve it after what we have been through.

Erm, you said forget.

Not forgive. We never have to forgive sisu. We have to forget the shit and get behind the 11 lads on the pitch. They say football is nothing without supporters. In our case that is literal, we're the only thing keeping the club alive.

 

[Astute]

Great post Astute. Spot on.

We can't influence the off the field matters so time to re-focus on MR and the team as the season ahead. This *could* be our most important season in years. Who knows what a promotion could do for the club.


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Oh yes. Can't wait for the season to start. Looking forward to this one more than any other season for years. The early signings got me going. It doesn't seem like my club. It is time to get rid of the no top 6 finish since before most of our supporters can remember or were even born.

Bring it on :smuggrin:

 

[oucho]

IIRC, the JR1 initial hearing had an identical outcome to this. What happened next? Sisu appealed in writing against this "no JR" verdict, were declined, appealed for an oral hearing at the high court, this was accepted - at the oral hearing, they overturned the initial decision not to hold the JR.....and the whole thing went through several identical phases right through the court system until the supreme court finally killed it. This may well not be over yet.

I thought that JR1 was far more likely to succeed than JR2 (although I did think that JR1 was a pretty long-shot too). I guess Sisu agreed with that, as otherwise why not go with JR2 first? For JR2, there just didn't seem to be any sort of case. As above though, that didn't stop them dragging out JR1 for years....this may well run and run. This is why I haven't broken out the champagne yet (I wouldn't celebrate a council victory, just a SIsu defeat for the twin reason is that their behaviour makes them deserving of every off-field defeat they get, and each such defeat makes it less likely they'll stay on as CCFC owners when all this is said and done).

 

[Colin Steins Smile]

It will be interesting to see if SISU adjust their strategy. Given that they need to find somewhere for the club to play for 2018-19 and that will require partnership working. Something they've failed consistently to embrace.
Hopefully they will now realise that repeating the same tactic and hoping for a different result is the definition of stupidity!

 

[Astute]

Not forgive. We never have to forgive sisu. We have to forget the shit and get behind the 11 lads on the pitch. They say football is nothing without supporters. In our case that is literal, we're the only thing keeping the club alive.

Not forgive anyone more like. Unless they right any wrong they have done. And.I can't see that happening.

 

[Astute]

It will be interesting to see if SISU adjust their strategy. Given that they need to find somewhere for the club to play for 2018-19 and that will require partnership working. Something they've failed consistently to embrace.
Hopefully they will now realise that repeating the same tactic and hoping for a different result is the definition of stupidity!

They have a strategy? You learn something new every day :smuggrin:

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Today was a big loss to you sisu supporters.

oh yeah, there aren't any.

Oh yes there is just look at the picture of joy coming out of the court she was having group hugs with some supporters if you look in the background you can clearly see one prominent one.

 

[Steve.B50]

Oh yes there is just look at the picture of joy coming out of the court she was having group hugs with some supporters if you look in the background you can clearly see one prominent one.

Who?

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Not forgive. We never have to forgive sisu. We have to forget the shit and get behind the 11 lads on the pitch. They say football is nothing without supporters. In our case that is literal, we're the only thing keeping the club alive.

Shame our owners only see that when they need a cash injection or someone to blame.
Never forget.
Never forgive.
Always support the team.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Who?

Seconded, who?!?

Mind you, my one entrance inside Northampton there was some bloke shaking Fisher's hand very vigorously. Guess it takes all sorts!

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Who?

A big player in old the SCG.
But if you think of a postman you might get her first name........

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Seconded, who?!?

Mind you, my one entrance inside Northampton there was some bloke shaking Fisher's hand very vigorously. Guess it takes all sorts!

Well by all accounts they were hugging and laughing at the interval, funny how they all looked miserable and teary at the end.........
Just look at the photo of joy, the one where she is hiding her face with some paper and you will see the ones scurrying behind her like Lemmings. .......

 

[letsallsingtogether]

L

Come on everyone follow joy........
plenty of room we have made the hole bigger.

 

[shy_tall_knight]

Any chance of a brief update as been very busy the last few days, it seems like SISU have a stronger legal case than expected

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Any chance of a brief update as been very busy the last few days, it seems like SISU have a stronger legal case than expected

They have got to get out of that hole first.

 

[Astute]

Any chance of a brief update as been very busy the last few days, it seems like SISU have a stronger legal case than expected

Yes they did have a stronger case than expected. It was only very weak

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

The courts will say no appeal so Sisu will take the courts to court to get an appeal, if they didn't how would we spend our summers.

 

[jas365]

Oh yes there is just look at the picture of joy coming out of the court she was having group hugs with some supporters if you look in the background you can clearly see one prominent one.

Which picture is this then?

 

[skybluetony176]

Any chance of a brief update as been very busy the last few days, it seems like SISU have a stronger legal case than expected

I was thinking the opposite myself. If they've spent 3 years preparing what they put forward it goes to show just what a hollow case they have. It's based on what happened after the event not what led to the event and the decision made that they were questioning. from my understanding thats the complete opposite to what a JR is supposed to be for.

 

[Astute]

The courts will say no appeal so Sisu will take the courts to courts to get an appeal, if they didn't how would we spend our summers.

I think they might win the appeal to have JR2. But I can't see any way that they would win JR2. As we should all know by now it is how it was at the time and not in the future. CCC got a valuation. They got the top end of the valuation. And it doesn't look like they can change what it is about.

 

[SkyBlue79]

I think they might win the appeal to have JR2. But I can't see any way that they would win JR2. As we should all know by now it is how it was at the time and not in the future. CCC got a valuation. They got the top end of the valuation. And it doesn't look like they can change what it is about.

The main argument seems to just be an extension on JR1 in terms of the council giving Wasps state aid, just from a slightly different angle. Unfortunately it seems SISU want to continue probing for holes in the sale process in order to get a return. However, as Astute has said CCC got a professional valuation for both the land and lease extension and in the end took the higher end for both...

Although I agree that shortly after the purchase, and then lease extension, the land value seems to have jumped by a significant amount... Is that an issue with the initial valuations by KPMG?

In London where lease extensions are pretty standard, is the lease value calculated directly by the value it would add to the overall land value, or is it another amount? It is immaterial but I'm just interested in how lease valuations are completed generally.

 

[martcov]

DrunkenWasps.com - SISU Lose First Round of JR2

Most interesting was about lost naming rights. If they never had a case. Were not prepared and had to be asked what they were actually claiming. Plus they said they wouldn't have taken the Wasps' deal anyway because of the loan that had to be repaid. Suddenly they want Wasps to pay 30 million because the Wasps'deal was too good.

Joy said originally that if she couldn't get an unencumbered freehold, she would tie the Council up in litigation.

It seems like this whole thing is a malicious attack on CCC with Wasps as collateral damage. CCFC just a pawn in Joy's battle, to be sacrificed if necessary.

Just grounds for a compensation claim by Wasps..?

 

[Astute]

The main argument seems to just be an extension on JR1 in terms of the council giving Wasps state aid, just from a slightly different angle. Unfortunately it seems SISU want to continue probing for holes in the sale process in order to get a return. However, as Astute has said CCC got a professional valuation for both the land and lease extension and in the end took the higher end for both...

Although I agree that shortly after the purchase, and then lease extension, the land value seems to have jumped by a significant amount... Is that an issue with the initial valuations by KPMG?

In London where lease extensions are pretty standard, is the lease value calculated directly by the value it would add to the overall land value, or is it another amount? It is immaterial but I'm just interested in how lease valuations are completed generally.

Commercial properties are totally different to residential properties. So not sure as have only had dealings with residential. There are laws covering it. But you can come to an agreement with residential. But coming to an agreement means ground rent can go up if you agree. Take the official route and it should end up as peppercorn rent. So maybe offering a bit more could get you the freehold. This makes it a bit more saleable.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I was thinking the opposite myself. If they've spent 3 years preparing what they put forward it goes to show just what a hollow case they have. It's based on what happened after the event not what led to the event and the decision made that they were questioning. from my understanding thats the complete opposite to what a JR is supposed to be for.

Have to say, on the surface this one disappoints me more. You could understand, even after the verdict, why they wanted to test with JR1, but for this one, with knowledge that SISU were kind of litigious, it was always going to be the case that CCC would be double checking, triple checking everything.

And they've had plenty of time to come up with an argument, and seem to have failed dismally!

The conspiracy theorist in me says it drags it out a bit if you lose the first, but win the appeal.

 

[Otis]

Have to say, on the surface this one disappoints me more. You could understand, even after the verdict, why they wanted to test with JR1, but for this one, with knowledge that SISU were kind of litigious, it was always going to be the case that CCC would be double checking, triple checking everything.

And they've had plenty of time to come up with an argument, and seem to have failed dismally!

The conspiracy theorist in me says it drags it out a bit if you lose the first, but win the appeal.

It comes across as both unprofessional and incompetent at best. Isn't this what lawyers do, go through and over everything with a fine-tooth comb, checking and rechecking and crossing all the T's and dotting all the I's?

Very poorly executed claim.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Wonder how many people in the future will be intimidated

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Which picture is this then?

The one where Gilbert is trying to interview her and she is hiding her face with some paper so as to not frighten the kids.
Pretty decent thing for her to do, must have been the Christian side of her coming out

There may be other pictures out there but they are not for me to post!

 

[skybluetony176]

The conspiracy theorist in me says it drags it out a bit if you lose the first, but win the appeal.

Can't see the logic in doing that myself. You could argue that in JR1 it was worth it as it was distressing ACL and it was assumed that if they went bust there was nowhere else to turn. Look at how wrong that turned out to be although you could argue it was a reasonable assumption at the time.

This time however ACL is in a completely different situation. It has an anchor Tennant other than CCFC, it's far less dependent on CCFC if at all, other area's of the business are improving. Yes it's still heavily in debt but there's no real evidence that they're in to much danger, they have options on how to deal with repaying the debt at the end of the term and they also ultimately have an owner who has a track record of putting his hand in his own pocket and bailing them out short to medium term if required.

Given what the judge has said not only about the cases chance of victory and probably even more important denying an opportunity for compensation I can't see what wasps have to worry about. Or for that matter what SISU have to gain even if they should win.

 

[Brylowes]

I think they might win the appeal to have JR2. But I can't see any way that they would win JR2. As we should all know by now it is how it was at the time and not in the future. CCC got a valuation. They got the top end of the valuation. And it doesn't look like they can change what it is about.

The striking thing for me hasn't been the verdicts, its the manner of their defeats, it's the sheer
ineptitude and lack of 'seemingly' basic levels of preparation and organisation.
It's not like it's ever in the balance, the Judges are always pretty scathing of their intentions, it's
Time they they took it on the chin and threw in the towel, any chance of recouping their losses
Through legal means is flawed.

 

[Nick]

Where is Nick? Same holiday as Les?

I hope not, I haven't seen him about

Was posting all the way through the thread by the way, until I left.

 

[Nick]

Any chance of a brief update as been very busy the last few days, it seems like SISU have a stronger legal case than expected

I don't think anybody thought they would win or have a case, then they pulled out the wanting Wasps to give the council 30m line.

Not sure how they can even appeal it really, again we might have found out a few things that make the council and wasps seem like bullshitters from behind the scenes compared to their statements etc, but all of the I's and T's would have been sorted so legally nothing wrong anyway.

 

[Captain Dart]

The main argument seems to just be an extension on JR1 in terms of the council giving Wasps state aid, just from a slightly different angle. Unfortunately it seems SISU want to continue probing for holes in the sale process in order to get a return. However, as Astute has said CCC got a professional valuation for both the land and lease extension and in the end took the higher end for both...

Although I agree that shortly after the purchase, and then lease extension, the land value seems to have jumped by a significant amount... Is that an issue with the initial valuations by KPMG?

In London where lease extensions are pretty standard, is the lease value calculated directly by the value it would add to the overall land value, or is it another amount? It is immaterial but I'm just interested in how lease valuations are completed generally.

I think the improvement in value just reflects the business that has been developed there. It would have increased the value if City had bought it instead of Wasps.

 

[Brylowes]

Wonder how many people in the future will be intimidated

Smaller entities may well be, but in this case they have taken on a fairly big
City Council with limitless funds, and it seems a safe position.

 

[oldskyblue58]

This judgement would seem to be pretty damning of the Sisu claim. The judge didn't say on balance his judgement was ..... he said there was no arguable case. That's in his judgement no case at all..... Not that there was an element of doubt.... no case.

The day in court is a final part of a long process not the only process in itself

I think it is misleading and misplaced to read in to this doubts based on the information posted by a journalist. Not saying Gilbert got anything wrong but he has only given his highlights as be heard them.... that's a small fraction of the days transcript....... which is in its self a small part of the statements evidence arguments etc put to the court before yesterday. The judge has considered all this and day in court is a final opportunity for verbal persuasion. Having considered much more than we or Gilbert have seen the judge has made his decision No arguable case.

A judicial review in this instance is a test of whether proper process has been followed in making a decision 07 October 2014. That includes whether or not proper and legal consideration was given to the laws regarding local authority property transactions. What happened since doesn't come in to it because it couldn't be known at the date of the decision. He concluded there was no arguable case that CCC had not followed proper process. I think some including Sisu and posters on here have lost sight of what a judicial review is.

Guess we wait see how harsh and petulant Seppala could be or whether she can reasonably accept defeat. At the moment I am not consoled by this verdict indeed I remain seriously concerned, things looking up in team matters it seems but off the pitch is there any significant change for the better ?

The only winners in this are the legal teams receiving large fees to argue or defend against what in my opinion have been poorly constructed jr claims.

 

[RegTheDonk]

Your house belongs to you, the Ricoh belonged to the people of Coventry ccc were supposed to act in the people's best interest

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Some may argue they did act in the people's best interest. They flogged off a "white elephant" that the very people, who are now pissed off they don't own it, considered had no value.

The judge listened to all the arguments from lawyers for both sides
After a short break he ruled against SISU and their allies in all cases
His language and brevity in delivering the verdicts suggest to me that only an idiotic organisation would bother with an appeal

Didn't this kind of happen the first time? ie. the Judge said piss off, they appealed, then were allowed to take it to a full hearing?