Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (21 Viewers)

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Apr 29, 2020

shmmeee said:
“Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime”. Perfect messaging. These days you’d be up in arms at the “dog whistle”.

As for immigration, TBH there’s nothing socialist about not protecting community cohesion or low paid workers. You can have high immigration as long as it’s not at the expense or poor communities. There’s a really good thread I read on this:

I’m not sure I agree that you can convince people rapid large scale low skilled immigration is good, but the points about taking people with you and planning where immigrants will live and work are good ones IMO.

Although there were/are failings in explaining things like immigration it's not like there haven't been attempts to do so. But if people don't want to listen you can't make them. If you go into a detailed analysis of immigration most people's eyes would glaze over and they'd just stop paying attention. It doesn't fit in with their simple world view and so just dismiss it as 'bleeding heart liberals" making excuses.

It doesn't help when you've had a govt and referendum campaign that plays to that thinking rather than the facts. They get elected because they just go along with the popular opinion rather than actually trying to educate people on the finer points.

"The superior man knows what is right. the inferior man knows what will sell"

wingy · Apr 29, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Congratulations Dom hope you’re recovering well

Put the bunting up and the flags out of the windows

Astute · Apr 29, 2020

shmmeee said:
It’s not though is it?

Labour focused on reducing poverty and improving access to education (causes of crime) while also bringing in stuff like ASBOs (tough on crime).

You just don’t like Blair.

Cool story.

Reducing poverty and improving access to education? It was Labour who introduced fees for university students. And since when did the criminal fraternity want to go to university?

ASBO's tough on crime? Since when has a slap on the wrist become tough on crime?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Apr 29, 2020

shmmeee said:
Then we need to be positive. Like the country and it’s people. Listen to their concerns and explain how we will solve them in simple clear messages about policy.

I agree about the simple messages and listen to concerns, but explaining how you solve them is a waste of time.

Look at Johnson - using such wide brushstrokes he may as well have just got the paint roller on it. So little detail and explanation and he gets a landslide.

So sod the explaining - whack the policy in the manifesto then just focus on simple messages that the public will respond to - i.e. immigration, NHS, crime etc.

Then when you're in you can put the manifesto policy into action and if people didn't read it that's their own problem.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 29, 2020

Astute said:
Cool story.

Reducing poverty and improving access to education? It was Labour who introduced fees for university students. And since when did the criminal fraternity want to go to university?

ASBO's tough on crime? Since when has a slap on the wrist become tough on crime?

I think their mass investment in school facilities was worthy of praise, introducing tuition fees and academisation less so

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 29, 2020

Skybluefaz said:
Why? He was just taken apart by the media

Ed Stone
Bacon sandwich
Talking and looking like Pitt the Younger every PMQs
Always trying to remember what the focus groups said rather than thinking for himself
Losing all of Scotland in one go

shmmeee · Apr 29, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I agree about the simple messages and listen to concerns, but explaining how you solve them is a waste of time.

Look at Johnson - using such wide brushstrokes he may as well have just got the paint roller on it. So little detail and explanation and he gets a landslide.

So sod the explaining - whack the policy in the manifesto then just focus on simple messages that the public will respond to - i.e. immigration, NHS, crime etc.

Then when you're in you can put the manifesto policy into action and if people didn't read it that's their own problem.

Explain is the wrong word maybe. Here, top voter concerns 2019:

Concern: Crime - Tory campaign: “20,000 new police officers” - Labour campaign: nothing in their headline policies

Concern: Brexit resolution - Tory campaign: “Get Brexit Done” - Labour campaign: “6 month delay minimum while we organise a second referendum”

Concern: NHS - Tory campaign: “40 new hospitals and 50,000 new nurses” - Labour campaign: “increase health budget by 4.8% & some easily denied conspiracy theory about Trump buying the NHS”

See the difference? And I had to google Labours stuff and not the Tories. And I’m a Labour member!

Ian1779 · Apr 29, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Ed Stone
Bacon sandwich
Talking and looking like Pitt the Younger every PMQs
Always trying to remember what the focus groups said rather than thinking for himself
Losing all of Scotland in one go

He lost Scotland because he took the same position as the Conservatives in the Independence Referendum.
I agree about the focus group thing - I worry we might be heading back that way.

The stone was shit - but straight out of the grown ups play book.

Ian1779 · Apr 29, 2020

shmmeee said:
Explain is the wrong word maybe. Here, Voter concerns 2019:

Concern: Crime - Tory campaign: “20,000 new police officers” - Labour campaign: nothing in their headline policies

Concern: Brexit resolution - Tory campaign: “Get Brexit Done” - Labour campaign: “6 month delay minimum while we organise a second referendum”

Concern: NHS - Tory campaign: “40 new hospitals and 50,000 new nurses” - Labour campaign: “increase health budget by 4.8% & some easily denied conspiracy theory about Trump buying the NHS”

See the difference? And I had to google Labours stuff and not the Tories. And I’m a Labour member!

It’s sad you are right because all of those Tory statements are lies

Astute · Apr 29, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I agree about the simple messages and listen to concerns, but explaining how you solve them is a waste of time.

Look at Johnson - using such wide brushstrokes he may as well have just got the paint roller on it. So little detail and explanation and he gets a landslide.

So sod the explaining - whack the policy in the manifesto then just focus on simple messages that the public will respond to - i.e. immigration, NHS, crime etc.

Then when you're in you can put the manifesto policy into action and if people didn't read it that's their own problem.

I'll tell you exactly what is wrong. Labour voters look at what is wrong with the opposition but ignore what is wrong with their own party. Look at when a few of us were saying the last GE was going to be a landslide. We were wrong and anti Labour. But now it is over those who constantly had digs at us for saying what was wrong now say they could see what was wrong.

All this led to such an inept government being voted in.

chiefdave · Apr 29, 2020

Couple of days ago we were discussing the total figures the FT were publishing using their modelling which was based on the most recent ONS figures. It was suggested that this was a high figure due to scaremongering / to make the government look bad. Sadly with the release yesterday of updated figures from the ONS it looks like the FT figures were too low and need to be revised upwards.
Was also suggested that the number of deaths due to coronavirus was being overstated with anyone who had any symptoms having it listed as cause of death. Again sadly the opposite looks like it could be the case. Looking at care home figures there's 9,707 excess deaths (the number of deaths above the 5 year average) of which only 3.093 list coronavirus as cause of death.

chiefdave · Apr 29, 2020

Ian1779 said:
It’s sad you are right because all of those Tory statements are lies

After Brexit it was said that one of the lefts biggest issues was regarding voters as stupid yet the reasons put forward for the Conservatives winning, the claims of additional police, nurses and hospitals, amount to calling voters stupid as they were so quickly and easily shown to be false.

shmmeee · Apr 29, 2020

Ian1779 said:
It’s sad you are right because all of those Tory statements are lies

That doesn’t matter. They’ll say La ours manifesto is unachievable too, but the fact is everyone in the country knew their proposed solutions even if they didn’t believe them. No one knew Labours and it was because of our own fuck ups not a media conspiracy.

shmmeee · Apr 29, 2020

chiefdave said:
After Brexit it was said that one of the lefts biggest issues was regarding voters as stupid yet the reasons put forward for the Conservatives winning, the claims of additional police, nurses and hospitals, amount to calling voters stupid as they were so quickly and easily shown to be false.

Voters aren’t stupid but they are not paying attention. For all their faults Blair and Campbell got this. Almost 25 years later and I can still reel off the pledge card or the speech slogans “reduce class sizes” “education education education”. Corbyn never came close to that level of media savvy and it was nothing to do with him being treated unfairly.

Until the left starts accepting responsibility for their losses they have no hope of not losing. That’s why I’m upset. Comfort blankets about stupid voters and nasty Tories and evil press barons may make you feel good but they don’t lead to a left wing government.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 29, 2020

Ian1779 said:
He lost Scotland because he took the same position as the Conservatives in the Independence Referendum.
I agree about the focus group thing - I worry we might be heading back that way.

The stone was shit - but straight out of the grown ups play book.

Opposing independence wasn’t and isn’t a cardinal sin but formally working with the Tories who at that time had abandoned Scotland for decades was a fatal error. I knew a few people who worked in the Better Together campaign, probably the worst run in this country in living memory and worse than the Remain effort by some distance

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 29, 2020

shmmeee said:
Voters aren’t stupid but they are not paying attention. For all their faults Blair and Campbell got this. Almost 25 years later and I can still reel off the pledge card or the speech slogans “reduce class sizes” “education education education”. Corbyn never came close to that level of media savvy and it was nothing to do with him being treated unfairly.

Until the left starts accepting responsibility for their losses they have no hope of not losing. That’s why I’m upset. Comfort blankets about stupid voters and nasty Tories and evil press barons may make you feel good but they don’t lead to a left wing government.

While Corbyn should get slated he was on the receiving end of an overwhelming number of false or deliberately misleading articles and hit pieces. Think that has been independently verified

djr8369 · Apr 29, 2020

shmmeee said:
You gotta feel for them on some level. They wanted five years of culture wars and solving every problem by waving a little Union Jack and riling the idiots up about the war. They were never intended to be an actual government in charge of serious things.

There would be a delicious sense of justice if so many people weren’t dying. This really isn’t why they signed up for is it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Astute · Apr 29, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I think their mass investment in school facilities was worthy of praise, introducing tuition fees and academisation less so

Look back. Shmmeee said about reducing poverty and improving access to education. That is what I replied to because nobody said a thing as usual.

And this goes to the next point I made. Always go on full attack on the Tories but ignore what is wrong with Labour. And then pretend there is nothing wrong and make anti Labour accusations if anyone mentions it.

Don't we want to appeal to the floating voters?

Astute · Apr 29, 2020

shmmeee said:
Until the left starts accepting responsibility for their losses they have no hope of not losing. That’s why I’m upset. Comfort blankets about stupid voters and nasty Tories and evil press barons may make you feel good but they don’t lead to a left wing government.

Spot on. And the point I normally get hammered for when I make it.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 29, 2020

Astute said:
Look back. Shmmeee said about reducing poverty and improving access to education. That is what I replied to because nobody said a thing as usual.

And this goes to the next point I made. Always go on full attack on the Tories but ignore what is wrong with Labour. And then pretend there is nothing wrong and make anti Labour accusations if anyone mentions it.

Don't we want to appeal to the floating voters?

On the contrary I don’t see much ignorance of the problems here and I was calling for Corbyn’s head for months before the election and again when he agreed to it. Only Ian thought Labour would win and I remember predicting a landslide along with a few others.

There is little denying that Labour under Blair poured lots of badly needed funding into schools

Grendel · Apr 29, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
While Corbyn should get slated he was on the receiving end of an overwhelming number of false or deliberately misleading articles and hit pieces. Think that has been independently verified

He attracted more votes than Blair in the May contest?

wingy · Apr 29, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Although there were/are failings in explaining things like immigration it's not like there haven't been attempts to do so. But if people don't want to listen you can't make them. If you go into a detailed analysis of immigration most people's eyes would glaze over and they'd just stop paying attention. It doesn't fit in with their simple world view and so just dismiss it as 'bleeding heart liberals" making excuses.

It doesn't help when you've had a govt and referendum campaign that plays to that thinking rather than the facts. They get elected because they just go along with the popular opinion rather than actually trying to educate people on the finer points.

"The superior man knows what is right. the inferior man knows what will sell"

But it was growth

Growth at all costs

Without provision of required expansion in infrastructure.
Depression on wages,pitting families against houses of multiple occupation.
No doubt there were some in Westminster who happily enriched their property portfolios on the basis of that.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 29, 2020

Grendel said:
He attracted more votes than Blair in the May contest?

He had only been in post for two years and had pledged to honour the referendum result. Make your mind up G you keep using 2017 as a for and against for Jezza-probably because you called it about as wrong as humanly possible

fernandopartridge · Apr 29, 2020

shmmeee said:
Explain is the wrong word maybe. Here, top voter concerns 2019:

Concern: Crime - Tory campaign: “20,000 new police officers” - Labour campaign: nothing in their headline policies

Concern: Brexit resolution - Tory campaign: “Get Brexit Done” - Labour campaign: “6 month delay minimum while we organise a second referendum”

Concern: NHS - Tory campaign: “40 new hospitals and 50,000 new nurses” - Labour campaign: “increase health budget by 4.8% & some easily denied conspiracy theory about Trump buying the NHS”

See the difference? And I had to google Labours stuff and not the Tories. And I’m a Labour member!

Agree with this, Labour needs to be a lot more focused on the policy intention and go with that rather than going with the underlying detail. Then again, you've got to remember that this isn't a level playing field, what Tories say is generally taken by the media at face value whereas Labour is always subject to more scrutiny.

Ian1779 · Apr 29, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
On the contrary I don’t see much ignorance of the problems here and I was calling for Corbyn’s head for months before the election and again when he agreed to it. Only Ian thought Labour would win and I remember predicting a landslide along with a few others.

There is little denying that Labour under Blair poured lots of badly needed funding into schools

I never said they would win - I said the best case scenario was to stop Boris getting a majority. We never could have won outright by not making massive gains back in Scotland.

Grendel · Apr 29, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
He had only been in post for two years and had pledged to honour the referendum result. Make your mind up G you keep using 2017 as a for and against for Jezza-probably because you called it about as wrong as humanly possible

I mention it as it blows apart the argument the right wing media can control elections. I think Mr Corbyns terrorist affiliations were well known then. He didn’t crash and burn from that position due the media he crashed and burned because he looked jaded defeated and useless

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 29, 2020

Grendel said:
I mention it as it blows apart the argument the right wing media can control elections. I think Mr Corbyns terrorist affiliations were well known then. He didn’t crash and burn from that position due the media he crashed and burned because he looked jaded defeated and useless

In case it escaped you Theresa May still won even more votes despite being a disaster at PR and with an awful manifesto. Nobody is pinning it all on one or the other but to deny the media has an influence is also denying reality

Ian1779 · Apr 29, 2020

Grendel said:
I mention it as it blows apart the argument the right wing media can control elections. I think Mr Corbyns terrorist affiliations were well known then. He didn’t crash and burn from that position due the media he crashed and burned because he looked jaded defeated and useless

He fucked Brexit first and foremost from that position.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Apr 29, 2020

shmmeee said:
Explain is the wrong word maybe. Here, top voter concerns 2019:

Concern: Crime - Tory campaign: “20,000 new police officers” - Labour campaign: nothing in their headline policies

Concern: Brexit resolution - Tory campaign: “Get Brexit Done” - Labour campaign: “6 month delay minimum while we organise a second referendum”

Concern: NHS - Tory campaign: “40 new hospitals and 50,000 new nurses” - Labour campaign: “increase health budget by 4.8% & some easily denied conspiracy theory about Trump buying the NHS”

See the difference? And I had to google Labours stuff and not the Tories. And I’m a Labour member!

Yep. As you say explain is not the right word. Spell out a simple slogan or 'target' for those that never bother to read the manifestos and make sure they take parts of the policy that appeal to that demographic (as a general rule tough on crime, immigration, fund education, NHS etc.). So for example you say "more police officers/customs officials" or "tougher sentences/visa requirements" etc without going into detail which may actually not really result in a reduction in crime/immigration.

Then for your more conscientious voter you put the detail in the manifesto for them to mull over. Like extra reading at uni.

chiefdave · Apr 29, 2020

shmmeee said:
Until the left starts accepting responsibility for their losses they have no hope of not losing. That’s why I’m upset. Comfort blankets about stupid voters and nasty Tories and evil press barons may make you feel good but they don’t lead to a left wing government.

You've perfectly illustrated my point. You say voters intelligence shouldn't be questioned yet you cite the likes of "20,000 new police officers" and "40 new hospitals and 50,000 new nurses" as reasons for the Conservatives winning. Things that were quickly and easily shown to be false.

You say the media has little influence yet they repeated these and similar soundbites without question while tearing apart every word uttered by Corbyn.

Its beyond me why so many on the left want to single out one issue. Why can't it be 'all of the above'? Seem to be getting themselves up for failure again next time round.

chiefdave · Apr 29, 2020

Raab has just said in PMQs "It’s far too early to make international comparisons".

Here's a chart the government releases every day

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 29, 2020

chiefdave said:
Raab has just said in PMQs "It’s far too early to make international comparisons".

Here's a chart the government releases every day

View attachment 14965

Until this started Boris probably thought COBRA was served by the pint

fernandopartridge · Apr 29, 2020

chiefdave said:
Raab has just said in PMQs "It’s far too early to make international comparisons".

Here's a chart the government releases every day

View attachment 14965

Has Raab ever been seen in the same room as CCFCSteve?

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 29, 2020

chiefdave said:
You've perfectly illustrated my point. You say voters intelligence shouldn't be questioned yet you cite the likes of "20,000 new police officers" and "40 new hospitals and 50,000 new nurses" as reasons for the Conservatives winning. Things that were quickly and easily shown to be false.

You say the media has little influence yet they repeated these and similar soundbites without question while tearing apart every word uttered by Corbyn.

Its beyond me why so many on the left want to single out one issue. Why can't it be 'all of the above'? Seem to be getting themselves up for failure again next time round.

Hail to the Chief

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Apr 29, 2020

Astute said:
I'll tell you exactly what is wrong. Labour voters look at what is wrong with the opposition but ignore what is wrong with their own party. Look at when a few of us were saying the last GE was going to be a landslide. We were wrong and anti Labour. But now it is over those who constantly had digs at us for saying what was wrong now say they could see what was wrong.

All this led to such an inept government being voted in.

Whereas the Tories are renowned for owning up to their errors?

They deflect with whataboutery (Labour anti-semitism when they've got a much larger problem themselves) Corbyn and Russia but where's the Russia report?

What the Tories do is when the pressure gets too much is get rid of the leader and this 'wipes the slate clean'. All in the past, nothing to see here. The carry on as before. Rinse and repeat.

Labours do indeed have a failure to address problems and what they do wrong, and they need to take plays from the Tory handbook in terms of campaigning.

But don't make out that anyone other party looks at their errors either. They're just far more willing to hide or deflect them.

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