Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (29 Viewers)

djr8369 · Mar 24, 2020

shmmeee said:
It was clear it was going to be needed. Far more could’ve been done to prepare people to work from home, get food deliveries up and running, etc. France and Spain both went into lockdown earlier in their outbreak as well. Well only know when we see how the NHS copes over the next month. If the aim is to lockdown to stop being over capacity then we will know if we did it too late.

As much as I understand the not wanting to be in lockdown any longer than necessary argument the state of other countries does suggest we've left it late in the day to do especially with our generally poor compliance with what we were asked. Does also seem a lot more could have been done to prepare systems to cope with and the overall plan could have been laid out without giving dates. Anytime the government have asked the government questions about future measures they've been very non-committal and that gives the public mixed measures.

Philosoraptor · Mar 24, 2020

Okay guys,

A quick crash course understanding Utilitarian thinking.

Astute · Mar 24, 2020

shmmeee said:
It was clear it was going to be needed. Far more could’ve been done to prepare people to work from home, get food deliveries up and running, etc. France and Spain both went into lockdown earlier in their outbreak as well. Well only know when we see how the NHS copes over the next month. If the aim is to lockdown to stop being over capacity then we will know if we did it too late.

Yes we will find out soon.

The main problem wasn't how long we took. It was the amount of idiots ignoring every bit of advice. If everyone would have done as asked we could have kept close to normality for much longer.

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 24, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
But- call me a lefty/ hippy etc if you like- lives have to be more important than the economy.

The thing is though, it's also because we have a strong economy that so many lives are saved here as it is, outside of this issue.

It's our ability to offer resource that means we can attract doctors and nurses away from their native countries to fill the gaps, can pay for the technology, and the conditions, and the general hygeine.

wingy · Mar 24, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
The thing is though, it's also because we have a strong economy that so many lives are saved here as it is, outside of this issue.

It's our ability to offer resource that means we can attract doctors and nurses away from their native countries to fill the gaps, can pay for the technology, and the conditions, and the general hygeine.

How's that been going?

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 24, 2020

wingy said:
How's that been going?

Better than most countries, something that the current government has taken for granted however, so not as good as some.

Astute · Mar 24, 2020

djr8369 said:
Anytime the government have asked the government questions about future measures they've been very non-committal and that gives the public mixed measures.

Nobody knows how long it will last. Nobody knows how many are infected.

But one thing for sure. The 28 days mentioned will only be the start. All you have to do is read between the lines. Schools look shut until September at least. They didn't postpone exams but they cancelled them. But they can't strike fear into the population by saying this will go on for months. A lot of people will be going mad in a week or so as it is.

The wife and I have spoken about it several times. Can't see us being together for 6 months or so. Both countries need to be open and look like they will still be open so I can get back.

chiefdave · Mar 24, 2020

Astute said:
Thought 80% was covered by the government.

I think that's only if you're furloughed. The idea is you're still an employee of the company ready to come back to work when this is all over but in the meantime the company only has to pay 20% of you wage.

Seems to be some huge flaws, obviously self employed miss out, anyone who is sacked or made redundant and cases like this where people are asked to keep working but take a pay cut.

Philosoraptor · Mar 24, 2020

Personally I believe letting 250 000 - 500 000 of our population die is against the ideas on why we have came together to form a commonwealth of idea and rules which we call a country.

The basic rules for Governments in general were laid down by John Locke in 'The Two Treaties of Government'.

We had a Civil War about these ideas a few hundred years ago.

They still stand the test of time now with when there is a Society, or when a Society reverts back into the State of Nature.

To get the arguments in the second treaty the first treaty also needs to be read.

https://www.yorku.ca/comninel/courses/3025pdf/Locke.pdf

A quick overview of the two treaties can be found on Wiki.

Two Treatises of Government - Wikipedia

BackRoomRummermill · Mar 24, 2020

clint van damme said:
Just been out for my hour a day excersise.
Appeared very quiet around Earlsdon though the co-op was quite packed.

you have got to give it to the proclaimers and their walk today

Liquid Gold · Mar 24, 2020

shmmeee said:
Then huge numbers can stay in lockdown the idiots.

An antibody test would allow some people out of lockdown if they’re immune so I guess that’s the first step before a vaccine.

Yeah, there must be something that will be cheaper than a vaccine that tests if you’ve had it already. I think that brings the mortality rate right down and we can more accurately gauge how the NHS can cope with. I think that’s when we get a load of restrictions lifted.

Astute · Mar 24, 2020

Philosorapter said:
Personally I believe letting 250 000 - 500 000 of our population die is against the ideas on why we have came together to form a commonwealth of idea and rules which we call a country.

Do you really think that is what the plan is?

Liquid Gold · Mar 24, 2020

Philosorapter said:
Personally I believe letting 250 000 - 500 000 of our population die is against the ideas on why we have came together to form a commonwealth of idea and rules which we call a country.

The basic rules for Governments in general were laid down by John Locke in 'The Two Treaties of Government'.

We had a Civil War about these ideas a few hundred years ago.

They still stand the test of time now with when there is a Society, or when a Society reverts back into the State of Nature.

To get the arguments in the second treaty the first treaty also needs to be read.

https://www.yorku.ca/comninel/courses/3025pdf/Locke.pdf

A quick overview of the two treaties can be found on Wiki.

Two Treatises of Government - Wikipedia

Who is arguing we let 500,000 people die?

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 24, 2020

Liquid Gold said:
Yeah, there must be something that will be cheaper than a vaccine that tests if you’ve had it already. I think that brings the mortality rate right down and we can more accurately gauge how the NHS can cope with. I think that’s when we get a load of restrictions lifted.

What I do hope with any vaccine, is that's something we absolutely don't panic about, and do at least get right, rather than rushing it out before the proper steps have been taken.

djr8369 · Mar 24, 2020

Astute said:
Nobody knows how long it will last. Nobody knows how many are infected.

But one thing for sure. The 28 days mentioned will only be the start. All you have to do is read between the lines. Schools look shut until September at least. They didn't postpone exams but they cancelled them. But they can't strike fear into the population by saying this will go on for months. A lot of people will be going mad in a week or so as it is.

The wife and I have spoken about it several times. Can't see us being together for 6 months or so. Both countries need to be open and look like they will still be open so I can get back.

I know nobody knows how long it will last. What I mean is the government wouldn't commit to any action even though it's obvious to anyone paying attention that every measures will be needed to slow the spread down. Rather people know what's coming and flip out a bit rather than feel they are left in the dark and only told things as they happen. If we all feel like we're on the same page and working together there will be more unity and a better sense of community.

Astute · Mar 24, 2020

Liquid Gold said:
Yeah, there must be something that will be cheaper than a vaccine that tests if you’ve had it already. I think that brings the mortality rate right down and we can more accurately gauge how the NHS can cope with. I think that’s when we get a load of restrictions lifted.

Until the numbers go back up then the restrictions would be set again.

But each time it would be better than before as more people will be immune to it. That is unless it mutates.

Otis · Mar 24, 2020

When someone is confirmed and they are on a ventilator, do they not test the other members of the family?

Otis · Mar 24, 2020

My best friend in London has said that her dad is confirmed and on a ventilator and they don't hold out too much hope.

Her mum though, has also just started coughing, but they say they won't test her until the symptoms become more severe.

Surely they should be testing the rest of the family shouldn't they?

Both parents are in their 70's.

wingy · Mar 24, 2020

F**king hell 14% of cases in Spain are health workers

Philosoraptor · Mar 24, 2020

Astute said:
Do you really think that is what the plan is?

Liquid Gold said:
Who is arguing we let 500,000 people die?

If we do nothing then this 500 000 figure is what the Government are working from as the amount of people which will die.

The old herd immunity ideas they were working from had an estimated 250 000 deaths.

Totally unacceptable.

To get these figures down to levels which could be considered viable and as less as possible until a cure or the levels of death goes down the only possible course is the one we are on.

Astute · Mar 24, 2020

djr8369 said:
I know nobody knows how long it will last. What I mean is the government wouldn't commit to any action even though it's obvious to anyone paying attention that every measures will be needed to slow the spread down. Rather people know what's coming and flip out a bit rather than feel they are left in the dark and only told things as they happen. If we all feel like we're on the same page and working together there will be more unity and a better sense of community.

The problem is that they don't know what will happen next.

As I said before they need to make a list of what should close and what needs to stay open. No excuses for anyone. Everything will change weekly at least. At times they will need to be more strict. Others they need to loosen a bit. But nobody knows when.

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 24, 2020

Otis said:
My best friend in London has said that her dad is confirmed and on a ventilator and they don't hold out too much hope.

Her mum though, has also just started coughing, but they say they won't test her until the symptoms become more severe.

Surely they should be testing the rest of the family shouldn't they?

Both parents are in their 70's.

They should really and sorry matey

mr_monkey · Mar 24, 2020

Astute said:
Nobody knows how long it will last. Nobody knows how many are infected.

But one thing for sure. The 28 days mentioned will only be the start. All you have to do is read between the lines. Schools look shut until September at least. They didn't postpone exams but they cancelled them. But they can't strike fear into the population by saying this will go on for months. A lot of people will be going mad in a week or so as it is.

The wife and I have spoken about it several times. Can't see us being together for 6 months or so. Both countries need to be open and look like they will still be open so I can get back.

Just to take umbridge with your school point, exams were cancelled not because schools won't be open then but because pupils and teachers won't have had the required amount of time to prep for it as they have other years, much like the reason Glastonbury has been moved to next year is that by June we might be out of these measures but they need 3 months to prep for it which obviously can't happen

The doom and gloom around this country staggers me, let's not make sweeping statements until we know stuff. 20 days times it will be reviewed and fingers crossed we will be like China and Italy and be on a downward curve by then and then we can start slowly lifting things for those fortunate enough to not be classed as high risk and go from there

Astute · Mar 24, 2020

Philosorapter said:
If we do nothing then these the 500 000 figure the Government are working from as the amount of people which will die.

The old herd immunity ideas they were working from had an estimated 250 000 deaths.

Totally unacceptable.

To get these figures down to levels which could be considered viable and as less as possible until a cure or the levels of death goes down the only possible course is the one we are on.

If we do nothing?

What is being close to lockdown? And I think we will be in lockdown within the next few days.

shmmeee · Mar 24, 2020

Astute said:
Yes we will find out soon.

The main problem wasn't how long we took. It was the amount of idiots ignoring every bit of advice. If everyone would have done as asked we could have kept close to normality for much longer.

Keep seeing this and as a former teacher it makes me laugh. I can only imagine the look I’d have got off an Ofsted inspector if I said “it’s not my fault the kids misbehave, they just won’t do as they’re told”. The government aren’t powerless, if people weren’t listening it was because of one or all of:

- Confusing messaging
- Lack of awareness
- Not taking it seriously
- Not a strong enough punishment

All of which are the in the governments gift and all of which it dropped the ball on. Johnson’s speaking style is vague and waffley at the best of time’s, the fact he was saying he was shaking hands with patients and seeing his mum one day then telling people not to do this the next, the refusal to use advertising, the reluctance to make things orders or laws rather than friendly suggestions: all classic Johnson and all ineffectual.

That’s before you get to the ignored warnings about the state of the NHS and the decade of underfunding.

Otis · Mar 24, 2020

Sky Blue Pete said:
They should really and sorry matey

Seems daft not to. I don't get that at all.

Astute · Mar 24, 2020

Otis said:
My best friend in London has said that her dad is confirmed and on a ventilator and they don't hold out too much hope.

Her mum though, has also just started coughing, but they say they won't test her until the symptoms become more severe.

Surely they should be testing the rest of the family shouldn't they?

Both parents are in their 70's.

Yes they should test.

Would love to know why they don't. Not enough tests to be given? Trying to hide the stats?

David O'Day · Mar 24, 2020

wingy said:
F**king hell 14% of cases in Spain are health workers

That's what happens when you don't give the health workers the right protection

Liquid Gold · Mar 24, 2020

Philosorapter said:
If we do nothing then this 500 000 figure is what the Government are working from as the amount of people which will die.

The old herd immunity ideas they were working from had an estimated 250 000 deaths.

Totally unacceptable.

To get these figures down to levels which could be considered viable and as less as possible until a cure or the levels of death goes down the only possible course is the one we are on.

We’ve already done a lot more than nothing

Nick · Mar 24, 2020

Anybody else had a text saying to stay in?

No idea how they got my number!!

Philosoraptor · Mar 24, 2020

Astute said:
If we do nothing?

What is being close to lockdown? And I think we will be in lockdown within the next few days.

We haven't seen anything yet. We are a few weeks where a few other country's are. What these other country's do next will be a big signpost to what we do next.

Being a few weeks behind other country's will save lives.

Astute · Mar 24, 2020

shmmeee said:
Keep seeing this and as a former teacher it makes me laugh. I can only imagine the look I’d have got off an Ofsted inspector if I said “it’s not my fault the kids misbehave, they just won’t do as they’re told”. The government aren’t powerless, if people weren’t listening it was because of one or all of:

- Confusing messaging
- Lack of awareness
- Not taking it seriously
- Not a strong enough punishment

All of which are the in the governments gift and all of which it dropped the ball on. Johnson’s speaking style is vague and waffley at the best of time’s, the fact he was saying he was shaking hands with patients and seeing his mum one day then telling people not to do this the next, the refusal to use advertising, the reluctance to make things orders or laws rather than friendly suggestions: all classic Johnson and all ineffectual.

That’s before you get to the ignored warnings about the state of the NHS and the decade of underfunding.

I fully agree. But who thought that so many millions would ignore all advice?

And it is this reason that it is made law ASAP.

Otis · Mar 24, 2020

Nick said:
Anybody else had a text saying to stay in?

No idea how they got my number!!

Sorry about that.

That was meant for my ex-wife.

Strange though, cos I sent that text in January.

Liquid Gold · Mar 24, 2020

Astute said:
Until the numbers go back up then the restrictions would be set again.

But each time it would be better than before as more people will be immune to it. That is unless it mutates.

But when those restrictions come back those who have proven immune/vaccinated/ recovered won’t need to go into hiding.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 24, 2020

chiefdave said:
I think that's only if you're furloughed. The idea is you're still an employee of the company ready to come back to work when this is all over but in the meantime the company only has to pay 20% of you wage.

Seems to be some huge flaws, obviously self employed miss out, anyone who is sacked or made redundant and cases like this where people are asked to keep working but take a pay cut.

Think it's time we just went with a flat UBI for the next few months, and dispensed with all other benefits. Give all households a debit card with x amount on it per month that can only be used at designated places. Faster, simpler and yes some high earners will see garnished pay for a while but nobody gets left behind.

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