Club Accounts 2016/2017

[stupot07]

I am expecting us to have a more competitive budget in League 2 than we did in League 1 yes. Mainly because the average budgets are lower in League 2. I'd also hazard a guess our budget wasn't bottom 4 last year.

It's all well and good saying "Nick is never wrong" but make your actual point, you don't like it when anybody questions a manager because to you it's as simple as their "hands are tied" so they can do what they want.

I maintain that ours wage bill will be one of the highest in this league. Certainly higher than Lincoln,Mansfield, Exeter and Wycombe who are all above us. You telling me Doyle, Kelly, McDonald, Davies, Willis, mcnuly, Vincenti, Stokes, Jones to name but a few aren't up there with some of the highest paid in the league.

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[wingy]

Wasn't trying to pull it apart, more see how you worked it out to get the player only percentage from turnover to try and then see how it compared. (Obviously all rough estimates rather than 100% bang on figures before somebody says that!)

Only from what has usually come from Fishers own mouth Nick.Those two figures are attributable to him, although I'm buggered If I'm doing a trawl to find them.

 

[Nick]

Only from what has usually come from Fishers own mouth Nick.Those two figures are attributable to him, although I'm buggered If I'm doing a trawl to find them.

Ah scrap that then, I thought you were working from the accounts and I was missing something.

It did fry my brain trying to work out what percent one number is of another number so had to just put it in google and move the percentage up and down until I got close!

 

[wingy]

I am expecting us to have a more competitive budget in League 2 than we did in League 1 yes. Mainly because the average budgets are lower in League 2. I'd also hazard a guess our budget wasn't bottom 4 last year.

It's all well and good saying "Nick is never wrong" but make your actual point, you don't like it when anybody questions a manager because to you it's as simple as their "hands are tied" so they can do what they want.

He did say rock bottom at the last Fans forum he did.

 

[Nick]

He did say rock bottom at the last Fans forum he did.

He said our budget was rock bottom of league 1 when we went down?

 

[chiefdave]

The 76p in the £ thing will be thrown around as fact now despite it immediately being proved to be wrong.

 

[Nick]

I don't get it



Surely if there's no difference between accrued and paid, why doesn't he just tell Visa he has paid it and be done with it?

 

[oldskyblue58]

I said this in the first few months after they came in...that they would deconstruct then reconstruct to make the club run soundly in finance terms. Struth - I had no idea they would go as far as they have to achieve it..!

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But did they do that. It seems to me that from 2008 until 2011 they allowed things to carry on the way they always had. After Ranson left, Seppala apparently got more involved with the aim to secure the stadium - just my opinion but that distressed CCFC as much as ACL if not more. Since the administration the reality is that SISU have only put money in if it was absolutely necessary in order to keep Otium trading - their strategy would appear to be turn the finance tap off and let the club find its own level. Hardly any great business acumen, the club had to adopt "live within means" or cease to exist.

Is it running soundly financially - well it made losses before interest of £856k in despite a cup windfall compared to a surplus of £725k in 2016( but that was only achieved after substantial player sale profits of £2.4m). There are clubs in L1 & L2 that with smaller incomes and no major player sales still show a profit. Yes it takes time to turn things around but given the current strategy is now at least 4 years old you might expect better results, especially given the wages paid and the added income of cup success.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I don't get it



Surely if there's no difference between accrued and paid, why doesn't he just tell Visa he has paid it and be done with it?

ask him what it was that was paying the Wages, direct costs and administrative overheads then ?

You have to allocate the fans pound across all the costs in much the same way as the Council tax summaries you get. It is illogical to allocate it all to one type of cost because that doesn't actually represent the reality. all income goes in to one pot that pays out all costs

The reason ARVO does not draw the interest is because there is not enough cash from all sources left to be able to do so. The fans £1 has been used to pay other costs not interest

 

[Ashdown]

Did I read that ticketing costs had risen ?! Surely not ?! And if so are we not only letting Ticketmaster make a Pound on every ticket sold but also paying them a fixed fee on top ?

 

[Nick]

ask him what it was that was paying the Wages, direct costs and administrative overheads then ?

You have to allocate the fans pound across all the costs in much the same way as the Council tax summaries you get. It is illogical to allocate it all to one type of cost because that doesn't actually represent the reality. all income goes in to one pot that pays out all costs

The reason ARVO does not draw the interest is because there is not enough cash from all sources left to be able to do so. The fans £1 has been used to pay other costs not interest

He is also seemingly pushing every bit of debt will be paid back some how, pretty sure even there was a fire sale of every player, ccfc sign, bib from ryton and football it wouldn't get anywhere close.

 

[oldskyblue58]

He is also seemingly pushing every bit of debt will be paid back some how, pretty sure even there was a fire sale of every player, ccfc sign, bib from ryton and football it wouldn't get anywhere close.

good luck with that idea............ only way that happens is if ARVO/SBS&L/Otium win the court cases for JR2

 

[Nick]

good luck with that idea............ only way that happens is if ARVO/SBS&L/Otium win the court cases for JR2

He's got another guy thinking we can just sell a player and pay them off, it's going to take silly money or that court case miracle.

 

[oldskyblue58]

He is expressing it as if the interest in its entirety is part of every £1 a fan pays over. Its a useless statistic and confuses the issue. Every £ a fan spends is being spent by the club on keeping the operation going. The Interest is not being paid and being rolled up for a hoped for payment sometime in the future and that payment will not be directly linked to a fans £ spent in season 2016/17, it will come from other future funds

 

[skybluetony176]

I am expecting us to have a more competitive budget in League 2 than we did in League 1 yes. Mainly because the average budgets are lower in League 2. I'd also hazard a guess our budget wasn't bottom 4 last year.

It's all well and good saying "Nick is never wrong" but make your actual point, you don't like it when anybody questions a manager because to you it's as simple as their "hands are tied" so they can do what they want.

Our form under Mowbray and Robins wasn’t bottom four either. IIRC it would have been about on budget especially under Robins. It was the Venus/Slade period where we underachieved in terms of budget and that period sealed our relegation.

The budget certainly wasn’t a top half or top 8 budget. Something I took abuse for certainly up until Xmas for pointing that out. Funnily enough it’s the same posters pretty much who dismissed me when saying it now think we’re underachieving compared to what they now assume the budget to be. Hence asking why we (that’s the royal we) keep believing what certain parties let or encourage us believe the budget is putting undue pressure on a manager who is already doing a difficult job well in difficult and uncertain circumstances. It’s the same faces every season who buy it.

 

[Nick]

Our form under Mowbray and Robins wasn’t bottom four either. IIRC it would have been about on budget especially under Robins. It was the Venus/Slade period where we underachieved in terms of budget and that period sealed our relegation.

The budget certainly wasn’t a top half or top 8 budget. Something I took abuse for certainly up until Xmas for pointing that out. Funnily enough it’s the same posters pretty much who dismissed me when saying it now think we’re underachieving compared to what they now assume the budget to be. Hence asking why we (that’s the royal we) keep believing what certain parties let or encourage us believe the budget is putting undue pressure on a manager who is already doing a difficult job well in difficult and uncertain circumstances. It’s the same faces every season who buy it.

Really? Can you go through the match threads then and see anybody who critisises Robins tactics or the way he sets us up and see where they are "falling" for this budget stuff? Maybe they are just judging it on what they see at matches week in, week out?

People will just the players on manager on what they see it games, trying to justify the Wycombe game as some sort of tactical masterclass to prove a point is a bit random too.

Under Mowbray last season we drew 6 and lost 4. Not the best form either.

 

[wingy]

He said our budget was rock bottom of league 1 when we went down?

No for this year, enabling us to either reduce player salaries or be a big fish I guess.

 

[Nick]

No for this year, enabling us to either reduce player salaries or be a big fish I guess.

Rock bottom for what though, league 2?

 

[Rusty Trombone]

He is expressing it as if the interest in its entirety is part of every £1 a fan pays over. Its a useless statistic and confuses the issue. Every £ a fan spends is being spent by the club on keeping the operation going. The Interest is not being paid and being rolled up for a hoped for payment sometime in the future and that payment will not be directly linked to a fans £ spent in season 2016/17, it will come from other future funds

Fisher should spin it that for every £1 they get from fans they spend £4 on running the club (haven't currently got the actual numbers, so whatever it works out as).

 

[oldskyblue58]

He said our budget was rock bottom of league 1 when we went down?

a lot of the clubs file restricted information, as small companies they are allowed to. Others have June year ends so have not filed yet

Walsall had a 2017 turnover of £6.6m and a wage bill of £ 3.38m

CCFC turnover £6.1m and a wage bill total of 4.45m. Somehow I don't think that CCFC spent £1m extra on commercial & admin staff.

Obviously depends on what the budget is that we are looking at SCMP, internal budgets, or something else. But he cant actually know the final figures on all the clubs until they are published. That said there are clubs in L1 last season that do give the 2016 information and are below CCFC's Turnover and Wages 2016

 

[Nick]

Fisher should spin it that for every £1 they get from fans they spend £4 on running the club (haven't currently got the actual numbers, so whatever it works out as).

£2.46m on match receipts, £4.45m on staff costs. So could spin it as every £1 from fans, nearly £2 is spent on wages.

 

[chiefdave]

Since the administration the reality is that SISU have only put money in if it was absolutely necessary in order to keep Otium trading - their strategy would appear to be turn the finance tap off and let the club find its own level. Hardly any great business acumen, the club had to adopt "live within means" or cease to exist.

Trying to be realistic other than finding a billionaire that doesn't mind throwing millions at the club what is the fix here? We're trying to be self sustaining, hard to argue against from a business perspective, in a field where a large number of our competitors are happy to rack up huge losses year in year out.

He is expressing it as if the interest in its entirety is part of every £1 a fan pays over. Its a useless statistic and confuses the issue.

Doesn't that mean that the interest would be paid off in one year despite having been accrued over 10 years?

 

[Nick]

He is still going for it, not sure why he would want to spin it so much one way? Nobody is debating the interest accrued or saying that £1.85m wasn't added to the debt.

 

[wingy]

No I hope not.
But as low as we can be now we're here.

 

[Liquid Gold]

ask him what it was that was paying the Wages, direct costs and administrative overheads then ?

You have to allocate the fans pound across all the costs in much the same way as the Council tax summaries you get. It is illogical to allocate it all to one type of cost because that doesn't actually represent the reality. all income goes in to one pot that pays out all costs

The reason ARVO does not draw the interest is because there is not enough cash from all sources left to be able to do so. The fans £1 has been used to pay other costs not interest

Do football clubs have restricted an unrestricted income? I cant see any mention of it in the accounts so I suspect not but if someone was willing to put £1M into Otium only to be used for buying players and paying salaries surely the club would have to consider that and would only be able to recover certain costs into unrestricted pots for other costs.

 

[Grendel]

He is still going for it, not sure why he would want to spin it so much one way? Nobody is debating the interest accrued or saying that £1.85m wasn't added to the debt.

Isn’t that clown a “football finance expert” that appears on CWR?

 

[Nick]

Yeah, he's the goto for this sort of thing in the media which is the worrying bit and I assume why the club felt the need to correct him quickly.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Yeah, he's the goto for this sort of thing in the media which is the worrying bit and I assume why the club felt the need to correct him quickly.

I think he's who the BBC use for their annual calculations. Shame as its going to be taken as fact now that you're giving sisu money.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Question for OSB58:

Wasn't converting debt into shares how SISU took over following the last administration? Why does the expert think that's a good idea and any better than just accruing interest on an existing debt? Surely it just has the same effect when the club is sold on?

It is a fact that SISU & ARVO charged Sky Blue Sport & Leisure £1.85 million in interest last season, equivalent to 76 pence for every £1 put into the club through the turnstiles. SISU & ARVO could wipe out the debt by converting it into shares, & no more interest would be due.

 

[Nick]

I think he's who the BBC use for their annual calculations. Shame as its going to be taken as fact now that you're giving sisu money.

Also a bit worrying that somebody who goes on TV / Radio to give their view about finance in football seems to think that football fans won't take any notice of his analysis when making decisions about the club.

 

[Moff]

Some on here are obviously missing the irony of telling others they know better about the managers budget, when they have as little knowledge of it as everyone else.
Until anyone has the budget sheet in front of them in black and white, they cant decry others opinions as they know as much, which is nothing just pure supposition.

 

[skybluetony176]

Really? Can you go through the match threads then and see anybody who critisises Robins tactics or the way he sets us up and see where they are "falling" for this budget stuff? Maybe they are just judging it on what they see at matches week in, week out?

People will just the players on manager on what they see it games, trying to justify the Wycombe game as some sort of tactical masterclass to prove a point is a bit random too.

Under Mowbray last season we drew 6 and lost 4. Not the best form either.

You’re doing it yourself. You talk about tactics as if he has unlimited resources to sign unlimited players to cover an unlimited number of tactics and possibilities. He can only sign a limited number of players based on a limited budget and that only gives you a limited number ways to set a team up utilising their skills.

Again you presume to know better than a manager not only with all the experience both on the field and touch line already mentioned but also a manager who spends all week every week from preseason working and learning systems that work best within the constraints of the group of players he’s been able to assemble within the constraints of the budget. You seem to think we have a budget that’s allowed us put together a squad of Roy of the Rover type players who can do all things in all areas therefore allowing the manager to turn the team on it’s head at a whim.

They’re clearly not seeing it on what they see week in week out because we haven’t won, lost or drawn every week. Sometimes the tactics that the players are capable of playing work, sometimes they’re indifferent and sometimes they fall. That’s football, get over it. Doesn’t mean that the manager gets it wrong week in week out which is what you’re insinuating, sometimes he gets it wrong but it isn’t week in week out. Sometimes he has to persevere with a player knowing that they will get better like McNaulty, is sticking with him one of his mistakes or actually a success?

 

[Moff]

You’re doing it yourself. You talk about tactics as if he has unlimited resources to sign unlimited players to cover an unlimited number of tactics and possibilities. He can only sign a limited number of players based on a limited budget and that only gives you a limited number ways to set a team up utilising their skills.

Tony you keep banging on about the managers budget as if you know it. Neither you or Nick do so why don't you both give it a rest

 

[oldskyblue58]

He is still going for it, not sure why he would want to spin it so much one way? Nobody is debating the interest accrued or saying that £1.85m wasn't added to the debt.

but before he said it was part of every £ not equivalent to. Two different things

SISU could convert to shares yes but they choose not to as is their right. No reason why any club has a right to free money. What SISU are doing is saying yes it is owed but we wont collect for now. Again that's their right if they so choose.

In any sale of the club no one is going to buy the shares of Otium .............. well no one in their right mind ........... so either way whether shares or loan there is not going to be full recovery of the amounts. The interest is charged because in the odd possibility of Otium winning compensation more goes to ARVO year by year

 

[skybluetony176]

Some on here (one person in particular) are obviously missing the irony of telling others they know better about the managers budget, when they have as little knowledge of it as everyone else.
Until anyone has the budget sheet in front of them in black and white, they cant decry others opinions as they know as much, which is nothing just pure supposition.

History tells us that the budget is never as good as a large section allow themselves (usually with help from one individual in the club) to believe. This happens season after season and the same section are also usually disappointed when we don’t reach their misplaced expectations. This isn’t knowing better, it’s just paying attention to our history and not making presumptions to the contrary.