But we dont have any other income.......

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Apr 16, 2010
9,160
5,999
313
Coventry
What do we get

Obviously match day tickets - because according to Fisher unlike other clubs that's all we get

"We are unlike most other football clubs, in that we do not benefit from non-ticketing revenue. The club does not get either matchday non-ticketing revenues or non-matchday revenues. We are therefore pushed to generate most income via ticketing means, and this puts pressure on the current Season Ticket pricing structure".

The accounts signed by Mr Fisher disclose the following as sources of income

Match receipts
- net receipts from League & Cup matches
- pools
- executive box rental
Commercial activities
- Television
- Sponsorship
- Advertising
- Club lottery
- Shop
- other activities

Similar to other clubs and includes non ticketing income

Now clearly we do not receive stadium sponsorship, we do not own one or occupy one long term. Of course on the other side of that we do not have the 24/7/365 costs of a stadium either. But we do receive shirt sponsorship etc.

Shop sales. Well we used to disclose the shop turnover but that activity has been franchised out so only the net cut that the club takes will now be disclosed. On the other side of that of course is that there are no associated costs (eg purchases, wages, facility costs etc). The club chose to do it this way

We know that the club has access to
- hospitality, its advertised as for sale on the club website
- a share of the F&B net profit, the club does not carry any of the costs or risks in providing it
- a share of the surplus on car parking if enough spaces are taken up
- we know that the club programmes have been franchised out, club chose to do that
All the above confirmed by club or Fisher

We know that the club will be paid the following by the football authorities
- prize money (league & cup)
- solidarity payments
- academy & other grants
- in 2017 a share of the Wembley gate money
same as other clubs (Wembley excluded)

Car parking. Originally at the Ricoh CCFC had access to income from 900 spaces, it was in the lease & licence they had, currently they get a cut of the net surplus (which has not been much). Some clubs have no parking of their own. At the BPA would there be room for any parking?

We do not receive money from non match day hospitality, conferencing or events unless the club choose to organise such income sources. This could be done at the Ricoh, at BPA or some other venue. Other clubs source such income at their own stadiums but they also pay the 24/7/365 costs of running and upkeep of the facilities whether the facilities are used or not. The club haven't seemed to try to create this income source for years
Say the club could generate £1m net turnover pa at its own stadium, in such net income say the direct costs were 60% (Fisher once suggested the net surplus should be at least 30%) of that then the effect on the SCMP in L2 would be 400k x 55% = £ 220K. Of course if the stadium is shared with CCFC only a tenant then the effect could be halved = £110k.

You cant spend the whole turnover on the squad because you have to pay the costs that create the source of income in the first place. Similarly the SCMP budget requires the deduction of direct costs before applying the 60% or 55% multiplier.

Income sources have costs directly related to them, our costs of sources other than match tickets you would logically think are reduced by not having these sources when compared to other clubs. Do other clubs especially in L2 actually make significant surpluses on these other income sources after you account for the costs?

To break even then you have to cover all costs that are paid out. That limits the size of the player budget before the SCMP does

So what is it that all other clubs get that puts us at such a competitive disadvantage?. Does the size of our crowds make up for it and balance the comparison to other clubs? Is the playing field really so uneven at L1 or L2?

or am I missing something?
 
Last edited:

bradwellskyblues

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2008
594
234
43
Thanks for this post it puts a lot into perspective,i have a little sympathy with club re st prices as they really are not very expensive ,however the package lacks any imagination a symptom of the sisu years
 
  • Like
Reactions: Captain Dart

wingy

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2011
25,948
5,075
213
Clearly not when the budget has been reduced on rising turnover.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Apr 16, 2010
9,160
5,999
313
Coventry
Just to give you an idea of income sources this is how Scunthorpe United disclose theirs in the 2016 accounts

upload_2017-4-13_10-6-30.png

this is the disclosure for CCFC

upload_2017-4-13_10-7-9.png
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Apr 16, 2010
9,160
5,999
313
Coventry
Why is the CCFC account so vague? Does the CCFC figure include player sales?
both disclosures are entirely legal and meet the rules. Its just that Scunthorpe choose to give greater detail and CCFC do not.

No player sales are in addition to that

Add in the player sales and the Fisher argument of being at such a disadvantage makes even less sense
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloughie

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2013
25,790
10,621
263
Just to give you an idea of income sources this is how Scunthorpe United disclose theirs in the 2016 accounts

View attachment 7134

this is the disclosure for CCFC

View attachment 7135
Do both disclose a cost breakdown as well OSB? Or any other clubs for that matter? What is the running cost of say a 12K stadium? Once that is taken into account what does that actually leave from the 24/7/365 revenue by way of profit that contributes to spend on the pitch?
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Apr 16, 2010
9,160
5,999
313
Coventry
Do both disclose a cost breakdown as well OSB? Or any other clubs for that matter? What is the running cost of say a 12K stadium? Once that is taken into account what does that actually leave from the 24/7/365 revenue by way of profit that contributes to spend on the pitch?
no such disclosures tony on either set of accounts its not required by the companies act. So cost analysis is really only guess work and you cant gauge if there are surpluses or not
 
  • Like
Reactions: skybluetony176

ps1948

Well-Known Member
Sep 14, 2011
562
275
113
Kenilworth
Why, oh why don't the BBC CWR "journalists" who interview Fisher ever ask some of the questions that are on here? They just accept what he has to say without question.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloughie

wingy

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2011
25,948
5,075
213
He's been bullshitting again.
It was ever thus.
I doubt the manager has been delivered the full 60% since Pressley was here.
Fisher has prioritised presentation in the books over maximising the portion given to the manager.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloughie

Godiva

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2011
4,292
123
63
Say we had taken over ACL - what sort of additionel income would we have?
 

Broken Hearted Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2011
8,232
2,299
113
Coventry
What do we get

Obviously match day tickets - because according to Fisher unlike other clubs that's all we get

"We are unlike most other football clubs, in that we do not benefit from non-ticketing revenue. The club does not get either matchday non-ticketing revenues or non-matchday revenues. We are therefore pushed to generate most income via ticketing means, and this puts pressure on the current Season Ticket pricing structure".

The accounts signed by Mr Fisher disclose the following as sources of income

Match receipts
- net receipts from League & Cup matches
- pools
- executive box rental
Commercial activities
- Television
- Sponsorship
- Advertising
- Club lottery
- Shop
- other activities

Similar to other clubs and includes non ticketing income

Now clearly we do not receive stadium sponsorship, we do not own one or occupy one long term. Of course on the other side of that we do not have the 24/7/365 costs of a stadium either. But we do receive shirt sponsorship etc.

Shop sales. Well we used to disclose the shop turnover but that activity has been franchised out so only the net cut that the club takes will now be disclosed. On the other side of that of course is that there are no associated costs (eg purchases, wages, facility costs etc). The club chose to do it this way

We know that the club has access to
- hospitality, its advertised as for sale on the club website
- a share of the F&B net profit, the club does not carry any of the costs or risks in providing it
- a share of the surplus on car parking if enough spaces are taken up
- we know that the club programmes have been franchised out, club chose to do that
All the above confirmed by club or Fisher

We know that the club will be paid the following by the football authorities
- prize money (league & cup)
- solidarity payments
- academy & other grants
- in 2017 a share of the Wembley gate money
same as other clubs (Wembley excluded)

Car parking. Originally at the Ricoh CCFC had access to income from 900 spaces, it was in the lease & licence they had, currently they get a cut of the net surplus (which has not been much). Some clubs have no parking of their own. At the BPA would there be room for any parking?

We do not receive money from non match day hospitality, conferencing or events unless the club choose to organise such income sources. This could be done at the Ricoh, at BPA or some other venue. Other clubs source such income at their own stadiums but they also pay the 24/7/365 costs of running and upkeep of the facilities whether the facilities are used or not. The club haven't seemed to try to create this income source for years
Say the club could generate £1m net turnover pa at its own stadium, in such net income say the direct costs were 60% (Fisher once suggested the net surplus should be at least 30%) of that then the effect on the SCMP in L2 would be 400k x 55% = £ 220K. Of course if the stadium is shared with CCFC only a tenant then the effect could be halved = £110k.

You cant spend the whole turnover on the squad because you have to pay the costs that create the source of income in the first place. Similarly the SCMP budget requires the deduction of direct costs before applying the 60% or 55% multiplier.

Income sources have costs directly related to them, our costs of sources other than match tickets you would logically think are reduced by not having these sources when compared to other clubs. Do other clubs especially in L2 actually make significant surpluses on these other income sources after you account for the costs?

To break even then you have to cover all costs that are paid out. That limits the size of the player budget before the SCMP does

So what is it that all other clubs get that puts us at such a competitive disadvantage?. Does the size of our crowds make up for it and balance the comparison to other clubs? Is the playing field really so uneven at L1 or L2?

or am I missing something?
Of course you're missing something, and I'll be along in a bit to tell you what it is.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2011
26,672
17,190
263
Coventry, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
Just to give you an idea of income sources this is how Scunthorpe United disclose theirs in the 2016 accounts

View attachment 7134

this is the disclosure for CCFC

View attachment 7135
So looking at that Scunthorpe list, where's the magic money we'd get that we don't have now? Commerical and Catering? Just over £600k? So we're talking about what the cup run brought in. So this season we are in fact funded as we would be in the mythical money making stadium?

Where are the apologists on this one? Nick? Grendel? Stupot? What say you?
 

bawtryneal

Well-Known Member
Mar 22, 2011
2,796
2,185
163
Bawtry, South Yorks
What do we get

Obviously match day tickets - because according to Fisher unlike other clubs that's all we get

"We are unlike most other football clubs, in that we do not benefit from non-ticketing revenue. The club does not get either matchday non-ticketing revenues or non-matchday revenues. We are therefore pushed to generate most income via ticketing means, and this puts pressure on the current Season Ticket pricing structure".

The accounts signed by Mr Fisher disclose the following as sources of income

Match receipts
- net receipts from League & Cup matches
- pools
- executive box rental
Commercial activities
- Television
- Sponsorship
- Advertising
- Club lottery
- Shop
- other activities

Similar to other clubs and includes non ticketing income

Now clearly we do not receive stadium sponsorship, we do not own one or occupy one long term. Of course on the other side of that we do not have the 24/7/365 costs of a stadium either. But we do receive shirt sponsorship etc.

Shop sales. Well we used to disclose the shop turnover but that activity has been franchised out so only the net cut that the club takes will now be disclosed. On the other side of that of course is that there are no associated costs (eg purchases, wages, facility costs etc). The club chose to do it this way

We know that the club has access to
- hospitality, its advertised as for sale on the club website
- a share of the F&B net profit, the club does not carry any of the costs or risks in providing it
- a share of the surplus on car parking if enough spaces are taken up
- we know that the club programmes have been franchised out, club chose to do that
All the above confirmed by club or Fisher

We know that the club will be paid the following by the football authorities
- prize money (league & cup)
- solidarity payments
- academy & other grants
- in 2017 a share of the Wembley gate money
same as other clubs (Wembley excluded)

Car parking. Originally at the Ricoh CCFC had access to income from 900 spaces, it was in the lease & licence they had, currently they get a cut of the net surplus (which has not been much). Some clubs have no parking of their own. At the BPA would there be room for any parking?

We do not receive money from non match day hospitality, conferencing or events unless the club choose to organise such income sources. This could be done at the Ricoh, at BPA or some other venue. Other clubs source such income at their own stadiums but they also pay the 24/7/365 costs of running and upkeep of the facilities whether the facilities are used or not. The club haven't seemed to try to create this income source for years
Say the club could generate £1m net turnover pa at its own stadium, in such net income say the direct costs were 60% (Fisher once suggested the net surplus should be at least 30%) of that then the effect on the SCMP in L2 would be 400k x 55% = £ 220K. Of course if the stadium is shared with CCFC only a tenant then the effect could be halved = £110k.

You cant spend the whole turnover on the squad because you have to pay the costs that create the source of income in the first place. Similarly the SCMP budget requires the deduction of direct costs before applying the 60% or 55% multiplier.

Income sources have costs directly related to them, our costs of sources other than match tickets you would logically think are reduced by not having these sources when compared to other clubs. Do other clubs especially in L2 actually make significant surpluses on these other income sources after you account for the costs?

To break even then you have to cover all costs that are paid out. That limits the size of the player budget before the SCMP does

So what is it that all other clubs get that puts us at such a competitive disadvantage?. Does the size of our crowds make up for it and balance the comparison to other clubs? Is the playing field really so uneven at L1 or L2?

or am I missing something?
Excellent piece as always but without stating the obvious the only other source of income is from player sales past or future
Are there any "legacy payments" due (Maddison etc ) and any future profit from player sales during the closed season.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Captain Dart

Brylowes

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2016
5,177
4,005
163
So looking at that Scunthorpe list, where's the magic money we'd get that we don't have now? Commerical and Catering? Just over £600k? So we're talking about what the cup run brought in. So this season we are in fact funded as we would be in the mythical money making stadium?

Where are the apologists on this one? Nick? Grendel? Stupot? What say you?
And don't forget there would be many costs against that 600.000. I doubt they were much
Better off than we were with our 75.000 cut, that was given to us for nothing.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2008
26,181
14,468
363
Coventry
So Scunthorpe generate £369,501 F&B revenues on average crowds of 3.907 and we generated £75,000 on average crowds of 12,570. If they had similar crowds to us they'd be looking at in the region of £1.2m.

Am I missing something as this kind of backs up what Fisher says doesn't it? That in L1 and L2 we have the ability to be competitive as our attendances can offset the revenue streams we don't get that others do but move up to the Championship and that doesn't apply.

Whatever way you look at it we don't have access to revenue streams that every other club has. We can argue the value of those but nobody can really argue that we aren't in a unique situation.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Apr 16, 2010
9,160
5,999
313
Coventry
no it doesn't

Scunthorpe generated a turnover of 369k before deducting any costs. CCFC shared the net profit 50:50 with Wasps without paying any costs or taking any risk. Totally different things

*** edit ...if you rework the 75k back to a turnover on a 30% net margin before being split that's a £500k turnover from F&B. That's not what could be used in the SCMP calculation - the figure would be 150k x 60% = 90K it was all ours but what we had was £75k x 60% = 45k. So the effect was £45k on a calculated figure that was probably obsolete because the effect of break even coming first

Define the sources every other team gets access to that we don't or choose not to? Stadium sponsorship and ........
 
Last edited:

Brylowes

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2016
5,177
4,005
163
So Scunthorpe generate £369,501 F&B revenues on average crowds of 3.907 and we generated £75,000 on average crowds of 12,570. If they had similar crowds to us they'd be looking at in the region of £1.2m.

Am I missing something as this kind of backs up what Fisher says doesn't it? That in L1 and L2 we have the ability to be competitive as our attendances can offset the revenue streams we don't get that others do but move up to the Championship and that doesn't apply.

Whatever way you look at it we don't have access to revenue streams that every other club has. We can argue the value of those but nobody can really argue that we aren't in a unique situation.
But they are turnover figures, what would their costs be to generate those figures.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2013
25,790
10,621
263
So Scunthorpe generate £369,501 F&B revenues on average crowds of 3.907 and we generated £75,000 on average crowds of 12,570. If they had similar crowds to us they'd be looking at in the region of £1.2m.

Am I missing something as this kind of backs up what Fisher says doesn't it? That in L1 and L2 we have the ability to be competitive as our attendances can offset the revenue streams we don't get that others do but move up to the Championship and that doesn't apply.

Whatever way you look at it we don't have access to revenue streams that every other club has. We can argue the value of those but nobody can really argue that we aren't in a unique situation.
They generate £369,501.00 off turnover we take £75K of profit. Which is why I was asking OSB if the costs were listed. OSB does mention that TF has eluded to the surplus being 30% so on that basis (if true) that would be £110K as apposed to £75K not £369K but with non of the associated costs and risks of running the stadium as a whole and not just the hospitality and catering side of things.
 

wingy

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2011
25,948
5,075
213
Does our figure cover just the concourse or hospitality catering, boxes etc.
 

bawtryneal

Well-Known Member
Mar 22, 2011
2,796
2,185
163
Bawtry, South Yorks
no it doesn't

Scunthorpe generated a turnover of 369k before deducting any costs. CCFC shared the net profit 50:50 with Wasps without paying any costs or taking any risk. Totally different things

Define the sources every other team gets access to that we don't or choose not to? Stadium sponsorship and ........
Weddings, Xmas parties, hiring out the pitch, pitch side advertising, car parking and most important of all a club shop as an integral part of the ground for increased match day revenue
Based on known Rotherham info I think all above would be approx gross £300k, so say £125K (ish) net
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2011
30,776
7,515
263
Cumbria
So Scunthorpe generate £369,501 F&B revenues on average crowds of 3.907 and we generated £75,000 on average crowds of 12,570. If they had similar crowds to us they'd be looking at in the region of £1.2m.

Am I missing something as this kind of backs up what Fisher says doesn't it? That in L1 and L2 we have the ability to be competitive as our attendances can offset the revenue streams we don't get that others do but move up to the Championship and that doesn't apply.

Whatever way you look at it we don't have access to revenue streams that every other club has. We can argue the value of those but nobody can really argue that we aren't in a unique situation.
We have less income but we also have less outgoings. We don't have to pay for the upkeep of a stadium. And that isn't cheap. But strangely enough Fisher never mentions that.

If we had our own stadium the upkeep would have to come from income. And as we are now having to pay our own way it could even reduce funds for the squad.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Apr 16, 2010
9,160
5,999
313
Coventry
Does our figure cover just the concourse or hospitality catering, boxes etc.
I am guessing that the £75k is F&B on the concourse because the Hospitality and executive boxes are sold directly by the club. (advertised on CCFC website)
 
  • Like
Reactions: wingy

rondog1973

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2011
1,141
570
163
Coventry, County of the City of Coventry
So looking at that Scunthorpe list, where's the magic money we'd get that we don't have now? Commerical and Catering? Just over £600k? So we're talking about what the cup run brought in. So this season we are in fact funded as we would be in the mythical money making stadium?

Where are the apologists on this one? Nick? Grendel? Stupot? What say you?
Yeah, but CCC, Wasps, Higgs etc.....
 

Voice_of_Reason

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2010
1,283
472
133
What do we get

Obviously match day tickets - because according to Fisher unlike other clubs that's all we get

"We are unlike most other football clubs, in that we do not benefit from non-ticketing revenue. The club does not get either matchday non-ticketing revenues or non-matchday revenues. We are therefore pushed to generate most income via ticketing means, and this puts pressure on the current Season Ticket pricing structure".

The accounts signed by Mr Fisher disclose the following as sources of income

Match receipts
- net receipts from League & Cup matches
- pools
- executive box rental
Commercial activities
- Television
- Sponsorship
- Advertising
- Club lottery
- Shop
- other activities

Similar to other clubs and includes non ticketing income

Now clearly we do not receive stadium sponsorship, we do not own one or occupy one long term. Of course on the other side of that we do not have the 24/7/365 costs of a stadium either. But we do receive shirt sponsorship etc.

Shop sales. Well we used to disclose the shop turnover but that activity has been franchised out so only the net cut that the club takes will now be disclosed. On the other side of that of course is that there are no associated costs (eg purchases, wages, facility costs etc). The club chose to do it this way

We know that the club has access to
- hospitality, its advertised as for sale on the club website
- a share of the F&B net profit, the club does not carry any of the costs or risks in providing it
- a share of the surplus on car parking if enough spaces are taken up
- we know that the club programmes have been franchised out, club chose to do that
All the above confirmed by club or Fisher

We know that the club will be paid the following by the football authorities
- prize money (league & cup)
- solidarity payments
- academy & other grants
- in 2017 a share of the Wembley gate money
same as other clubs (Wembley excluded)

Car parking. Originally at the Ricoh CCFC had access to income from 900 spaces, it was in the lease & licence they had, currently they get a cut of the net surplus (which has not been much). Some clubs have no parking of their own. At the BPA would there be room for any parking?

We do not receive money from non match day hospitality, conferencing or events unless the club choose to organise such income sources. This could be done at the Ricoh, at BPA or some other venue. Other clubs source such income at their own stadiums but they also pay the 24/7/365 costs of running and upkeep of the facilities whether the facilities are used or not. The club haven't seemed to try to create this income source for years
Say the club could generate £1m net turnover pa at its own stadium, in such net income say the direct costs were 60% (Fisher once suggested the net surplus should be at least 30%) of that then the effect on the SCMP in L2 would be 400k x 55% = £ 220K. Of course if the stadium is shared with CCFC only a tenant then the effect could be halved = £110k.

You cant spend the whole turnover on the squad because you have to pay the costs that create the source of income in the first place. Similarly the SCMP budget requires the deduction of direct costs before applying the 60% or 55% multiplier.

Income sources have costs directly related to them, our costs of sources other than match tickets you would logically think are reduced by not having these sources when compared to other clubs. Do other clubs especially in L2 actually make significant surpluses on these other income sources after you account for the costs?

To break even then you have to cover all costs that are paid out. That limits the size of the player budget before the SCMP does

So what is it that all other clubs get that puts us at such a competitive disadvantage?. Does the size of our crowds make up for it and balance the comparison to other clubs? Is the playing field really so uneven at L1 or L2?

or am I missing something?
Well said, proving once again how accounts and Fishers statements are designed to fit and confuse in my opinion
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloughie

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2008
26,181
14,468
363
Coventry
They generate £369,501.00 off turnover we take £75K of profit. Which is why I was asking OSB if the costs were listed. OSB does mention that TF has eluded to the surplus being 30% so on that basis (if true) that would be £110K as apposed to £75K not £369K but with non of the associated costs and risks of running the stadium as a whole and not just the hospitality and catering side of things.
Margin should generally run 25-35% for stadium catering. However if you also factor in that our prices are the highest in the league (according to the BBC's price of football survey) then it is reasonable to suggest the margin should be higher.

But even if it isn't you'd be looking at £360K compare to £70K, a not insignificant amount at this level. And of course if we were successful and attendances increased that number would rise.