But we dont have any other income.......

Discussion in 'Coventry City General Chat' started by oldskyblue58, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    What do we get

    Obviously match day tickets - because according to Fisher unlike other clubs that's all we get

    "We are unlike most other football clubs, in that we do not benefit from non-ticketing revenue. The club does not get either matchday non-ticketing revenues or non-matchday revenues. We are therefore pushed to generate most income via ticketing means, and this puts pressure on the current Season Ticket pricing structure".

    The accounts signed by Mr Fisher disclose the following as sources of income

    Match receipts
    - net receipts from League & Cup matches
    - pools
    - executive box rental
    Commercial activities
    - Television
    - Sponsorship
    - Advertising
    - Club lottery
    - Shop
    - other activities

    Similar to other clubs and includes non ticketing income

    Now clearly we do not receive stadium sponsorship, we do not own one or occupy one long term. Of course on the other side of that we do not have the 24/7/365 costs of a stadium either. But we do receive shirt sponsorship etc.

    Shop sales. Well we used to disclose the shop turnover but that activity has been franchised out so only the net cut that the club takes will now be disclosed. On the other side of that of course is that there are no associated costs (eg purchases, wages, facility costs etc). The club chose to do it this way

    We know that the club has access to
    - hospitality, its advertised as for sale on the club website
    - a share of the F&B net profit, the club does not carry any of the costs or risks in providing it
    - a share of the surplus on car parking if enough spaces are taken up
    - we know that the club programmes have been franchised out, club chose to do that
    All the above confirmed by club or Fisher

    We know that the club will be paid the following by the football authorities
    - prize money (league & cup)
    - solidarity payments
    - academy & other grants
    - in 2017 a share of the Wembley gate money
    same as other clubs (Wembley excluded)

    Car parking. Originally at the Ricoh CCFC had access to income from 900 spaces, it was in the lease & licence they had, currently they get a cut of the net surplus (which has not been much). Some clubs have no parking of their own. At the BPA would there be room for any parking?

    We do not receive money from non match day hospitality, conferencing or events unless the club choose to organise such income sources. This could be done at the Ricoh, at BPA or some other venue. Other clubs source such income at their own stadiums but they also pay the 24/7/365 costs of running and upkeep of the facilities whether the facilities are used or not. The club haven't seemed to try to create this income source for years
    Say the club could generate £1m net turnover pa at its own stadium, in such net income say the direct costs were 60% (Fisher once suggested the net surplus should be at least 30%) of that then the effect on the SCMP in L2 would be 400k x 55% = £ 220K. Of course if the stadium is shared with CCFC only a tenant then the effect could be halved = £110k.

    You cant spend the whole turnover on the squad because you have to pay the costs that create the source of income in the first place. Similarly the SCMP budget requires the deduction of direct costs before applying the 60% or 55% multiplier.

    Income sources have costs directly related to them, our costs of sources other than match tickets you would logically think are reduced by not having these sources when compared to other clubs. Do other clubs especially in L2 actually make significant surpluses on these other income sources after you account for the costs?

    To break even then you have to cover all costs that are paid out. That limits the size of the player budget before the SCMP does

    So what is it that all other clubs get that puts us at such a competitive disadvantage?. Does the size of our crowds make up for it and balance the comparison to other clubs? Is the playing field really so uneven at L1 or L2?

    or am I missing something?
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
  2. bradwellskyblues

    bradwellskyblues Active Member

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    Thanks for this post it puts a lot into perspective,i have a little sympathy with club re st prices as they really are not very expensive ,however the package lacks any imagination a symptom of the sisu years
     
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  3. wingy

    wingy Well-Known Member

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    Clearly not when the budget has been reduced on rising turnover.
     
  4. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    Just to give you an idea of income sources this is how Scunthorpe United disclose theirs in the 2016 accounts

    upload_2017-4-13_10-6-30.png

    this is the disclosure for CCFC

    upload_2017-4-13_10-7-9.png
     
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  5. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

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    Why is the CCFC account so vague? Does the CCFC figure include player sales?
     
  6. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    It's very easy to assume that they don't want to disclose the full picture because the real story doesn't tow the line with the mantra repeatedly spouted by Fisher.
     
  7. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    both disclosures are entirely legal and meet the rules. Its just that Scunthorpe choose to give greater detail and CCFC do not.

    No player sales are in addition to that

    Add in the player sales and the Fisher argument of being at such a disadvantage makes even less sense
     
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  8. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Do both disclose a cost breakdown as well OSB? Or any other clubs for that matter? What is the running cost of say a 12K stadium? Once that is taken into account what does that actually leave from the 24/7/365 revenue by way of profit that contributes to spend on the pitch?
     
  9. Steve.B50

    Steve.B50 Well-Known Member

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    Thank You OSB,

    When its put this way it starts to make you want to ask more questions.;
     
  10. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    no such disclosures tony on either set of accounts its not required by the companies act. So cost analysis is really only guess work and you cant gauge if there are surpluses or not
     
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  11. ps1948

    ps1948 Active Member

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    Why, oh why don't the BBC CWR "journalists" who interview Fisher ever ask some of the questions that are on here? They just accept what he has to say without question.
     
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  12. skybluebeduff

    skybluebeduff Well-Known Member

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  13. wingy

    wingy Well-Known Member

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    He's been bullshitting again.
    It was ever thus.
    I doubt the manager has been delivered the full 60% since Pressley was here.
    Fisher has prioritised presentation in the books over maximising the portion given to the manager.
     
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  14. Godiva

    Godiva Well-Known Member

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    Say we had taken over ACL - what sort of additionel income would we have?
     
  15. Broken Hearted Sky Blue

    Broken Hearted Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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    Of course you're missing something, and I'll be along in a bit to tell you what it is.
     
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  16. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    It isn't what the other clubs have. It is what they don't have. They don't have Tim Fisher.
     
  17. SimonGilbert

    SimonGilbert Telegraph Tea Boy

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    Not in for six days, but have linked to this via Twitter.

    Excellent analysis.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
     
  18. Brylowes

    Brylowes Well-Known Member

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    Are you surprised it's vague?

    I would be surprised if it wasn't.
     
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  19. shmmeee

    shmmeee Well-Known Member

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    So looking at that Scunthorpe list, where's the magic money we'd get that we don't have now? Commerical and Catering? Just over £600k? So we're talking about what the cup run brought in. So this season we are in fact funded as we would be in the mythical money making stadium?

    Where are the apologists on this one? Nick? Grendel? Stupot? What say you?
     
  20. bawtryneal

    bawtryneal Well-Known Member

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    Excellent piece as always but without stating the obvious the only other source of income is from player sales past or future
    Are there any "legacy payments" due (Maddison etc ) and any future profit from player sales during the closed season.
     
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  21. Brylowes

    Brylowes Well-Known Member

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    And don't forget there would be many costs against that 600.000. I doubt they were much
    Better off than we were with our 75.000 cut, that was given to us for nothing.
     
  22. Skybluefaz

    Skybluefaz Well-Known Member

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    But he does work for free, I imagine other clubs pay their chairman a salary so that's more money in our clubs pockets thanks to Tim.
     
  23. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    So Scunthorpe generate £369,501 F&B revenues on average crowds of 3.907 and we generated £75,000 on average crowds of 12,570. If they had similar crowds to us they'd be looking at in the region of £1.2m.

    Am I missing something as this kind of backs up what Fisher says doesn't it? That in L1 and L2 we have the ability to be competitive as our attendances can offset the revenue streams we don't get that others do but move up to the Championship and that doesn't apply.

    Whatever way you look at it we don't have access to revenue streams that every other club has. We can argue the value of those but nobody can really argue that we aren't in a unique situation.
     
  24. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    no it doesn't

    Scunthorpe generated a turnover of 369k before deducting any costs. CCFC shared the net profit 50:50 with Wasps without paying any costs or taking any risk. Totally different things

    *** edit ...if you rework the 75k back to a turnover on a 30% net margin before being split that's a £500k turnover from F&B. That's not what could be used in the SCMP calculation - the figure would be 150k x 60% = 90K it was all ours but what we had was £75k x 60% = 45k. So the effect was £45k on a calculated figure that was probably obsolete because the effect of break even coming first

    Define the sources every other team gets access to that we don't or choose not to? Stadium sponsorship and ........
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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  25. Brylowes

    Brylowes Well-Known Member

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    But they are turnover figures, what would their costs be to generate those figures.
     
  26. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    They generate £369,501.00 off turnover we take £75K of profit. Which is why I was asking OSB if the costs were listed. OSB does mention that TF has eluded to the surplus being 30% so on that basis (if true) that would be £110K as apposed to £75K not £369K but with non of the associated costs and risks of running the stadium as a whole and not just the hospitality and catering side of things.
     
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  27. wingy

    wingy Well-Known Member

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    Does our figure cover just the concourse or hospitality catering, boxes etc.
     
  28. bawtryneal

    bawtryneal Well-Known Member

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    Weddings, Xmas parties, hiring out the pitch, pitch side advertising, car parking and most important of all a club shop as an integral part of the ground for increased match day revenue
    Based on known Rotherham info I think all above would be approx gross £300k, so say £125K (ish) net
     
  29. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    We have less income but we also have less outgoings. We don't have to pay for the upkeep of a stadium. And that isn't cheap. But strangely enough Fisher never mentions that.

    If we had our own stadium the upkeep would have to come from income. And as we are now having to pay our own way it could even reduce funds for the squad.
     
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  30. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    I am guessing that the £75k is F&B on the concourse because the Hospitality and executive boxes are sold directly by the club. (advertised on CCFC website)
     
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  31. rondog1973

    rondog1973 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but CCC, Wasps, Higgs etc.....
     
  32. wingy

    wingy Well-Known Member

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    And Scunny is matchday only or 365/24/7?
     
  33. Voice_of_Reason

    Voice_of_Reason Well-Known Member

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    Well said, proving once again how accounts and Fishers statements are designed to fit and confuse in my opinion
     
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  34. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    I would guess 365/24/7
     
  35. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Margin should generally run 25-35% for stadium catering. However if you also factor in that our prices are the highest in the league (according to the BBC's price of football survey) then it is reasonable to suggest the margin should be higher.

    But even if it isn't you'd be looking at £360K compare to £70K, a not insignificant amount at this level. And of course if we were successful and attendances increased that number would rise.
     

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