Ben Sheaf future

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2012
8,677
2,988
213
Coventry
Sheaf would be a great prospect and a steal at £750K, like with Walker the boo-boys have already made up their minds. Weirdly both have been criticised on here for lack of smiling, which shows how desperate things are.
With Sheaf, the decision MR has to make is how much he is willing to invest in his development to make it work.

He’s had some good moments, some bad. But, 750k is not an insignificant sum to us so it may be worth looking elsewhere.
 

Frostie

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2011
4,927
4,750
213
I can see why you say that and I’d agree on the face of it.

He’s 23 now, 22 when he got here and had played 40 odd games in the EFL. Have in mind there were quite a few sub appearances and quite a few where he was subbed off.

Up until the age of 21 he’d played very little competitive football and only really u23 matches.

The point Thompson made and I conveyed was that in his day young players at 21 may have had 3/4/5 (Thompson playing in Central League, he says, from 15/16) full seasons playing in a competitive league with old pros and the like.

Maybe, just maybe, that format of playing a lot competitive games might have stopped him dwelling on the ball (fear of getting a Doyle-like player clattering you season after season might do the trick more that a combined 20-30 full games at the age of 22)

I’ve looked at the season reviews from Donny and they said “he got caught in possession a lot”. I’m guessing Robins was hoping that this would be drilled out of him but in the sporadic games he played for us this wasn’t the case.

So, I’ll stick to my original thought.

U23’s football isn’t the same as competitive reserve football and players therefore develop differently. The equivalent nowadays would be a loan out at aged 18/19 to L2, Nat League, Scotland. Sheaf didn’t get that until realistically a couple of years later.

Of course, you may totally disagree with the opinion of Garry Thompson and think his opinion lazy. That’s your prerogative.
No, not that, that's a perfectly fair opinion. I just meant it doesn't really apply to Sheaf now as he hasn't just jumped up from U23s wringing wet. He hasn't played an U23s game for 2 years, that's a fact. In fact he's played more EFL games than he's ever played U23s.
 

Hutch11

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2020
277
288
163
Sheaf has shown enough promise to take a punt on
Costs half of Hamer and whilst I think Gus is quality and will be even better when he's acclimatised to the way it is over here I don't think he's twice as good as Sheaf
So Hamer is good value therefore Sheaf at half the price has got to be good value too imo
 

SBAndy

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2011
2,887
2,522
213
Sheaf would be a great prospect and a steal at £750K, like with Walker the boo-boys have already made up their minds. Weirdly both have been criticised on here for lack of smiling, which shows how desperate things are.
Is it a Cov fan thing or just a football fan thing to be so stubborn about first impressions? Everyone seems to make their mind up before a player has played a game nowadays.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hobo and ccfc_Tom

Frostie

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2011
4,927
4,750
213
Nah he’s good at being private. Fully expect sheaf to sign and at £750k and at that price it’s a steal for me
As @better days alluded to, if there's a potential issue with his injuries then I can see us declining (if he's not hit the criteria of course). In terms of ability/potential though I'd definitely expect us to take him.
 

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2008
4,756
3,540
163
Somewhere between the waitress and her table.
Sheaf has shown enough promise to take a punt on
Costs half of Hamer and whilst I think Gus is quality and will be even better when he's acclimatised to the way it is over here I don't think he's twice as good as Sheaf
So Hamer is good value therefore Sheaf at half the price has got to be good value too imo
I'm 1% as good as Hamer and available for £10k - great value.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
May 13, 2011
5,416
3,970
213
Rather Sheaf than flatters to deceive James, who hasn't had a good game in the shirt according to some on here.
 

better days

Well-Known Member
May 8, 2016
3,679
4,594
163
As @better days alluded to, if there's a potential issue with his injuries then I can see us declining (if he's not hit the criteria of course). In terms of ability/potential though I'd definitely expect us to take him.
I think that's why Robins was being careful in his comments
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2018
10,333
6,653
213
Sheaf:

Can sometimes make a great pass, other times give the ball away shockingly.

Can sometimes put in a great tackle or block, other times bottle it, not track back, give away a foul in a dangerous position.

Often caught in possession and we end up losing the ball and momentum.

On the latter note, I listened to the Garry Thompson podcast on What’s the Craic (and it was a good one - listen in). He was saying that many young players nowadays play u23s and there is very little hard tackling and players get time on the ball; and then struggle when they move up to men’s level. In his day, young players would play in the competitive Central League where there’d be old cloggers mixed in who’d kick them all over.

Sheaf appears to still be in Arsenal u23 mode and looks genuinely shocked every time some old pro leans on him and nicks the ball whilst he contemplates his belly button.

Whether this can be coached out of him or played into him remains to be seen, but the Championship isn’t a development league. If we do have to buy him then we need to loan him out somewhere where he’ll get toughened up. Scotland will do.
Difference between having a reserve team and a team largely maintained for an age group to focus on technical ability. We need a more competitive reserve competition to keep fitness for those out of favour or returning to fitness and be a better introduction into the men's game for the youngsters coming through.

Before we had good physical players but no technical ability because those players largely fell away in the physicality. Now, we get the technical players but often not the physicality - even the centre halves are not going for challenges and playing the ball around. Now, the physical lads are falling away because they're not technically gifted enough.

When we've had an entire generation brought up like that, as we soon will have, then that will have worked it's way into the men's game and there will be little hard tackling or rough stuff in that as well.

We need a bit of both to make it interesting - the trade off between technical ability and physical. I don't U23 should be a thing - up to U21 at most. Maybe have the academy scholarships up to 18 then an apprentice/trainee level up to 21 with the aim for them to play in the reserves. After that it's play with the big boys.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blind-Faith

SleepyGinger

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2020
786
679
193
I really like sheaf. He was being asked to do a difficult job, he was constantly picking the ball up of the defenders and trying to dictate the play in a league higher than he had ever played before for a new team. I think the way we have set up in the last 2 games would suit him with his physicality and long passing ability.
 
  • Like
Reactions: shmmeee

Offhegoes

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2014
147
148
93
Despite the numerous suicidal passes, and dithering on the ball, I liked how Sheaf dicatated play, and we kept possssion so much better when he was playing. I think he definately showed enough to sign. Rotating Kelly, James, Sheaf & Eccles next season keeps us strong in that department, and we know Kelly & James have had injury history.
 
  • Like
Reactions: fatso and Boosh

SleepyGinger

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2020
786
679
193
His contract Arsenal ends this year anyway so if we can get out of the transfer what’s to stop us picking him up on a free?
 

dubed

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2012
3,732
2,036
213
Despite the numerous suicidal passes, and dithering on the ball, I liked how Sheaf dicatated play, and we kept possssion so much better when he was playing. I think he definately showed enough to sign. Rotating Kelly, James, Sheaf & Eccles next season keeps us strong in that department, and we know Kelly & James have had injury history.
I don't care to publicly put on damper on players, but my concern is that his reputation for suicidal passes and ball dithering preceded his time at Coventry, and that even after a good run of games he hasn't managed to cut that out. I appreciate that 750k in the Championship isn't going to buy a lot, but I would want to consider that amount as part of the total budget and the options it may present in the round.

For me, it felt like Robins was very much fence-sitting.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2011
32,520
24,174
313
Coventry, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
I don't care to publicly put on damper on players, but my concern is that his reputation for suicidal passes and ball dithering preceded his time at Coventry, and that even after a good run of games he hasn't managed to cut that out. I appreciate that 750k in the Championship isn't going to buy a lot, but I would want to consider that amount as part of the total budget and the options it may present in the round.

For me, it felt like Robins was very much fence-sitting.
Thats the point. If you look at the facts he’s done it no more than any other player in midfield or defence (or even attack, looking at you Max!!). But people were primed by the Donny fans so as soon as it happened (which it did to all our players stepping up) it became CCFC lore.

This culminated in the ridiculous situation of a poster on here making a list of who was responsible for different goals conceded and blaming sheaf for losing the ball so far before the goal he wasn’t even on the highlights which start with the opposition forty yards from goal with half the CCFC team between them and the goal. But Sheafs fault because reasons.

You see confirmation bias so much in football fans. As soon as they’ve made their mind up one way or another everything is proof of their belief.

Sheafs ball retention is fine.
 

dubed

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2012
3,732
2,036
213
Thats the point. If you look at the facts he’s done it no more than any other player in midfield or defence (or even attack, looking at you Max!!). But people were primed by the Donny fans so as soon as it happened (which it did to all our players stepping up) it became CCFC lore.

This culminated in the ridiculous situation of a poster on here making a list of who was responsible for different goals conceded and blaming sheaf for losing the ball so far before the goal he wasn’t even on the highlights which start with the opposition forty yards from goal with half the CCFC team between them and the goal. But Sheafs fault because reasons.

You see confirmation bias so much in football fans. As soon as they’ve made their mind up one way or another everything is proof of their belief.

Sheafs ball retention is fine.
Well-made point, and there may well be some truth in it. Not wholly convinced, but we shall see should he return!
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2018
10,333
6,653
213
Not if the original loan deal in included an obligation to buy providing there was no recurrence of injury
Yeah I know but the question seemed to be framed in a sense that if whatever criteria for that obligation weren't met we could legally refuse to pay and if Arsenal then released him we could get him for nothing. Or if we didn't sign him someone else could for nothing.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2018
10,333
6,653
213
Sheaf would be a strategic signing, I don't think it's a case of Sheaf or James even if he doesn't sign.
Probably not, but it would hamper us in adding to the squad elsewhere. It all comes from the same budget. Do we really need Sheaf AND James as CM more than we need a AM/CB/LB/ST/GK etc? I also assume if we brought in both, Kelly would be released and can either of those fill the role of team leader that would be vacated? If not we'd have signed two players and neither would have replaced the most important aspect of who they were replacing brings into the team IMO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cc84cov

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2011
24,603
19,851
313
Probably not, but it would hamper us in adding to the squad elsewhere. It all comes from the same budget. Do we really need Sheaf AND James as CM more than we need a AM/CB/LB/ST/GK etc? I also assume if we brought in both, Kelly would be released and can either of those fill the role of team leader that would be vacated? If not we'd have signed two players and neither would have replaced the most important aspect of who they were replacing brings into the team IMO.
Yes, we do. Given Kelly's injury record, and James' likewise
 

cc84cov

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2018
15,272
6,228
313
Thats the point. If you look at the facts he’s done it no more than any other player in midfield or defence (or even attack, looking at you Max!!). But people were primed by the Donny fans so as soon as it happened (which it did to all our players stepping up) it became CCFC lore.

This culminated in the ridiculous situation of a poster on here making a list of who was responsible for different goals conceded and blaming sheaf for losing the ball so far before the goal he wasn’t even on the highlights which start with the opposition forty yards from goal with half the CCFC team between them and the goal. But Sheafs fault because reasons.

You see confirmation bias so much in football fans. As soon as they’ve made their mind up one way or another everything is proof of their belief.

Sheafs ball retention is fine.
Why ain’t robins coming out and praising the lad and speaking about taking up the obligation ?
 

Marty

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2011
6,063
1,962
213
Not a massive fan of Sheaf, looks ok in spells, looks dreadful in others, probably a solid league one player and that's about his level currently.
 

Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
May 13, 2011
5,416
3,970
213
Why ain’t robins coming out and praising the lad and speaking about taking up the obligation ?
Because unlike you he doesn't air every thought that pops into his head as soon as he thinks it up. Suppose you'd like him to come out and tell the team a few days before we play the game, and the tactics.
 

Frostie

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2011
4,927
4,750
213
Yeah I know but the question seemed to be framed in a sense that if whatever criteria for that obligation weren't met we could legally refuse to pay and if Arsenal then released him we could get him for nothing. Or if we didn't sign him someone else could for nothing.
Is he definitely out of contract in the summer?
Arsenal don't tend to disclose contract lengths officially & just said he'd signed a new, long term deal in 2017.
Some places have guessed that to mean 2021, others are saying 2022.
 

cc84cov

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2018
15,272
6,228
313
Because unlike you he doesn't air every thought that pops into his head as soon as he thinks it up. Suppose you'd like him to come out and tell the team a few days before we play the game, and the tactics.
He doesn’t have to look at how he’s used sheaf
 

Skybluebeliever

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2020
206
95
78
Within the agreement to sign you hope there would be a stipulation on fitness of the player , if he had a long term injury you could not expect the club to be obliged to buy , it will depend how the club wish to play it I suppose , the reason he could have gone back to arsenal is so they can assess the injury and are fully involved so if the club to stall they have full facts
 

cc84cov

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2018
15,272
6,228
313
Within the agreement to sign you hope there would be a stipulation on fitness of the player , if he had a long term injury you could not expect the club to be obliged to buy , it will depend how the club wish to play it I suppose , the reason he could have gone back to arsenal is so they can assess the injury and are fully involved so if the club to stall they have full facts
What long term injury ? He played 32 games for Doncaster last season