Appeal Dismissed (3 Viewers)

oldskyblue58 · Nov 29, 2018

How does repeating, over and over and for the umpteenth time, a view of what partly happened in 2006 (12 years ago) actually solve our current predicament?

SISU put very little in to acquire the club around £500k actual cash, perhaps that's why in their haste to make profits they did not deal with the basics of the deal. Anyone coming in at that time was in the driving seat in discussions with CCC, the bank, ACL etc. The slate should have been wiped clean irrespective of what CCC/ACL wanted, it wasn't as if any of the parties looking to buy in to the club were inexperienced or not advised. The rent deal should have been renegotiated as part of the purchase it wasn't, everything else was pretty much wiped away. It wasnt, it is all history long since passed, our owners & other parties involved have made plenty of very poor decisions since then

But back to matters in hand, because that history does not solve how to get Wasps & SISU to do a deal for Otium/CCFC to continue at the Ricoh. The only card CCFC/Otium has is public pressure hence why i termed my post above as i did. You have to remove the excuses, expose the weaknesses to leave the need to compromise

HuckerbyDublinWhelan · Nov 29, 2018

It’s relevant because the target should be Wasps. They need to feel the pressure of running the club out of town, they’re the landlords.

But everytime someone suggests this, it gets pointed out at how bad SISU were and should have done this that and the other. Ultimately it seems that ACL/the council had no intention of renegotiating that deal, as they turned it down before and just wanted someone to toe the party line.

SISU like Wasps are a symptom of the council’s greed.

The Club is on its last legs - and we as fans can’t agree who we should target immediately. Unless that is resolved urgently - the Club is dead

Sky Blue Pete · Nov 29, 2018

Grendel said:
The original owners tried to negotiate and the council told them to do one

Ken Taylor decided after the club was on the brink he’d decide who could buy the club and announced sisu as the bidder of choice

The reason? They wouldn’t exercise the right to purchase

Daniel Gidney thought the club a nuisance and wanted it out so he could go in his nonsense project of rivalling the NEC as the premier venue. The dumbass council swallowed it hook line and sinker

Sisu are only here because of the council

You missed some important information there

Captain Dart · Nov 29, 2018

HuckerbyDublinWhelan said:
SISU like Wasps are a symptom of the council’s greed.

I would say incompetence and lack of foresight.

fernandopartridge · Nov 29, 2018

Captain Dart said:
I would say incompetence and lack of foresight.

Agreed. I don't think it's a greed thing, more like naivety.

fernandopartridge · Nov 29, 2018

oldskyblue58 said:
How does repeating, over and over and for the umpteenth time, a view of what partly happened in 2006 (12 years ago) actually solve our current predicament?

SISU put very little in to acquire the club around £500k actual cash, perhaps that's why in their haste to make profits they did not deal with the basics of the deal. Anyone coming in at that time was in the driving seat in discussions with CCC, the bank, ACL etc. The slate should have been wiped clean irrespective of what CCC/ACL wanted, it wasn't as if any of the parties looking to buy in to the club were inexperienced or not advised. The rent deal should have been renegotiated as part of the purchase it wasn't, everything else was pretty much wiped away. It wasnt, it is all history long since passed, our owners & other parties involved have made plenty of very poor decisions since then

But back to matters in hand, because that history does not solve how to get Wasps & SISU to do a deal for Otium/CCFC to continue at the Ricoh. The only card CCFC/Otium has is public pressure hence why i termed my post above as i did. You have to remove the excuses, expose the weaknesses to leave the need to compromise

Was there time to renegotiate the rent at that time, remembering the 7th December deadline that was set by the club's creditors? Perhaps post takeover there might have been, but ACL (the council) had rejected the club's request for a rent reduction a year previously, ACL was heavily reliant on that £1.2m a year.

oldskyblue58 · Nov 29, 2018

HuckerbyDublinWhelan said:
It’s relevant because the target should be Wasps. They need to feel the pressure of running the club out of town, they’re the landlords.

But everytime someone suggests this, it gets pointed out at how bad SISU were and should have done this that and the other. Ultimately it seems that ACL/the council had no intention of renegotiating that deal, as they turned it down before and just wanted someone to toe the party line.

SISU like Wasps are a symptom of the council’s greed.

The Club is on its last legs - and we as fans can’t agree who we should target immediately. Unless that is resolved urgently - the Club is dead

The immediate target is Wasps irrespective of the history in 2007. They had no part in the 2007 deal, and the history doesn't deal with what needs solving now.

Far too many people focus on what went on years ago, the problem is in 2018/19. The facts and problems that need dealing with are in this year not 2007. To keep reiterating what went on years ago and can not be changed only deflects attention from the pressing need that exists today. We need to deal with the now not the history or who was to blame for who owns the club SISU, CCC, ACL etc.

HuckerbyDublinWhelan · Nov 29, 2018

Captain Dart said:
I would say incompetence and lack of foresight.

fernandopartridge said:
Agreed. I don't think it's a greed thing, more like naivety.

They took advantage of the club when it was on its knees. The whole deal to purchase the 50% the club owned was leveraged as sell on our terms or go out of business.

Throughout this whole sorry saga beginning from Richardson through SISU, Wasps and the Council is a disgrace and none of them will suffer. At the end of the day the only party that will get the kick is us the fans.

HuckerbyDublinWhelan · Nov 29, 2018

oldskyblue58 said:
The immediate target is Wasps irrespective of the history in 2007. They had no part in the 2007 deal, and the history doesn't deal with what needs solving now.

Far too many people focus on what went on years ago, the problem is in 2018/19. The facts and problems that need dealing with are in this year not 2007. To keep reiterating what went on years ago and can not be changed only deflects attention from the pressing need that exists today. We need to deal with the now not the history or who was to blame for who owns the club SISU, CCC, ACL etc.

I’ve made that first point - but everyone sees it as “forget SISU” even CJ said why not both?

Nobody has said forget the campaign against SISU. We need to focus all our efforts on bringing Wasps round the table. Once the deal is done, we go back to fighting SISU.

Fighting on 2 fronts only leads to defeat

oldskyblue58 · Nov 29, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
Was there time to renegotiate the rent at that time, remembering the 7th December deadline that was set by the club's creditors? Perhaps post takeover there might have been, but ACL (the council) had rejected the club's request for a rent reduction a year previously, ACL was heavily reliant on that £1.2m a year.

they could have fp the council and bank were over a barrel. The alternative was administration at best where they would have ended up with far less. There was no other tenant option at that time.

Have never understood fully, other than certain self interests, why administration was such a no go. In theory you would have had CCFC wipe the slate clean, ACL have no option but to take the same route and both be available together at a knock down price

HuckerbyDublinWhelan · Nov 29, 2018

oldskyblue58 said:
they could have fp the council and bank were over a barrel. The alternative was administration at best where they would have ended up with far less. There was no other tenant option at that time.

Have never understood fully, other than certain self interests, why administration was such a no go. In theory you would have had CCFC wipe the slate clean, ACL have no option but to take the same route and both be available together at a knock down price

I’d imagine self interest was the exact reason. Too many people stood to lose some money. I’m sure that’s why we didn’t take Administration when it wasn’t punished

fernandopartridge · Nov 29, 2018

oldskyblue58 said:
Have never understood fully, other than certain self interests, why administration was such a no go. In theory you would have had CCFC wipe the slate clean, ACL have no option but to take the same route and both be available together at a knock down price

Indeed, I think it's something to do with a politician's reputation over anything else

oldskyblue58 · Nov 29, 2018

HuckerbyDublinWhelan said:
I’ve made that first point - but everyone sees it as “forget SISU” even CJ said why not both?

Nobody has said forget the campaign against SISU. We need to focus all our efforts on bringing Wasps round the table. Once the deal is done, we go back to fighting SISU.

Fighting on 2 fronts only leads to defeat

not everyone. Deal with the biggest problem first which is the rent deal. But there is no SISU out campaign that is really active, there is no real fight going in that direction. A challenge to Wasps even less so

HuckerbyDublinWhelan · Nov 29, 2018

oldskyblue58 said:
not everyone. Deal with the biggest problem first which is the rent deal. But there is no SISU out campaign that is really active, there is no real fight going in that direction. A challenge to Wasps even less so

Like I said until Wasps have pressure this will end one way only.

Unfortunately some seem to be hesitant to do so

CJ_covblaze · Nov 29, 2018

Grendel said:
Also of course the Manhattan Group - Hopkins was openly scathing of the dealings with the council in the dealings at the time

If only he’d taken over. Seen where he’s been working for the last few years?

Voice_of_Reason · Nov 29, 2018

HuckerbyDublinWhelan said:
It’s relevant because the target should be Wasps. They need to feel the pressure of running the club out of town, they’re the landlords.

But everytime someone suggests this, it gets pointed out at how bad SISU were and should have done this that and the other. Ultimately it seems that ACL/the council had no intention of renegotiating that deal, as they turned it down before and just wanted someone to toe the party line.

SISU like Wasps are a symptom of the council’s greed.

The Club is on its last legs - and we as fans can’t agree who we should target immediately. Unless that is resolved urgently - the Club is dead

I said exactly the same earlier ie, that Wasps is the weakest link and more likely to suffer through adverse publicity and protests. SISU has proven that it has a thick skin and won't give a toss about adverse publicity or protests. Pressure should therefore be applied on Wasps who need local community and business support and revenues derived from such.

christonabike · Nov 29, 2018

Would be nice if local wasp sponsors shouted up and said they are behind City playing at the Ricoh next season or even better get all the fans as a collective to boycott those companies. Get a bit off momentum going with all the fans such as the Wembley day trippers and the ones that go week in week out plus family members of these people and with the local media following it ex players could be willing to put their weight behind it also.
SAVE OUR CITY CAMPAIGN!
Money talks.

ccfcway · Nov 29, 2018

I would be at any wasps protest that is agreed by the mass majority of us.

One thing I don’t get is how we can expect a hedge fund who had no issues moving a team away from its home to care at all. If it’s because they need local suppprt, then surely Sisu do as well ?

Captain Dart · Nov 29, 2018

I previously thought Wasps would be able to navigate a few losses because Richardson would bail them out but it looks now like their losses are beginning to spiral out of control and Richardson's fortune isn't that massive. So now I'm not so sure.

Unfortunately there is no obvious longer term solution for the Sky Blues on the horizon, these awful aggressive business tactics employed by SISU will continue. I hate all this uncertainty.

Magwitch · Nov 29, 2018

oldskyblue58 said:
How does repeating, over and over and for the umpteenth time, a view of what partly happened in 2006 (12 years ago) actually solve our current predicament?

SISU put very little in to acquire the club around £500k actual cash, perhaps that's why in their haste to make profits they did not deal with the basics of the deal. Anyone coming in at that time was in the driving seat in discussions with CCC, the bank, ACL etc. The slate should have been wiped clean irrespective of what CCC/ACL wanted, it wasn't as if any of the parties looking to buy in to the club were inexperienced or not advised. The rent deal should have been renegotiated as part of the purchase it wasn't, everything else was pretty much wiped away. It wasnt, it is all history long since passed, our owners & other parties involved have made plenty of very poor decisions since then

But back to matters in hand, because that history does not solve how to get Wasps & SISU to do a deal for Otium/CCFC to continue at the Ricoh. The only card CCFC/Otium has is public pressure hence why i termed my post above as i did. You have to remove the excuses, expose the weaknesses to leave the need to compromise

Another good post

CJ_covblaze said:
If only he’d taken over. Seen where he’s been working for the last few years?

No where ?

CJ_covblaze · Nov 29, 2018

Magwitch said:
Another good post

No where ?

He was Man City’s head of international development and set up their opporations in the States and Australia. Has since moved on to continue working in the States with various major sporting organisations. It’s a shame really as he had and still has genuinely powerful connections.

Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon · Nov 29, 2018

CJ_covblaze said:
He was Man City’s head of international development and set up their opporations in the States and Australia. Has since moved on to continue working in the States with various major sporting organisations. It’s a shame really as he had and still has genuinely powerful connections.

I must have missed all this, when was this particular take-over being discussed? Will i find much if i look online?

fernandopartridge · Nov 29, 2018

CJ_covblaze said:
He was Man City’s head of international development and set up their opporations in the States and Australia. Has since moved on to continue working in the States with various major sporting organisations. It’s a shame really as he had and still has genuinely powerful connections.

Yeah easy to take advantage of connections when backed by a billionaire sovereign wealth fund

Nick · Nov 29, 2018

Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon said:
I must have missed all this, when was this particular take-over being discussed? Will i find much if i look online?

This was at the same time SISU came in. There were apparently a couple of others but they wanted the Ricoh too.

Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon · Nov 29, 2018

Nick said:
This was at the same time SISU came in. There were apparently a couple of others but they wanted the Ricoh too.

Thanks Nick, I've given myself a bit of a history lesson and there were a few 'attempted' (or maybe just rumoured) takeovers that I don't recall reading much about at the time.

Sick Boy · Nov 30, 2018

thekidfromstrettoncamp said:
Adge you are not the only person to say they should not have sold the Ricoh to Wasps but put yourself in council position you want to relieve yourself of it. The club had already moved to Northampton liquidation the club to make sure they(the council ,the ratepayers) did not get what was legally owed to them . They had said they would not pay anywhere near the price Wasps paid thinking they were the only show in town . Should the council have hung on waiting for a change of heart? I think not and I am not a Coventry ratepayer . Their(Sisu) previous and latter actions prove their move was right.

I take it you’d also think it right for another council to sell a stadium to CCFC meaning that the club would leave its city?

CJ_covblaze · Nov 30, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
Yeah easy to take advantage of connections when backed by a billionaire sovereign wealth fund

He had them already. He’d wirk

fernandopartridge said:
Yeah easy to take advantage of connections when backed by a billionaire sovereign wealth fund

His connections were there before his job at Man City.

letsallsingtogether · Nov 30, 2018

oldskyblue58 said:
not everyone. Deal with the biggest problem first which is the rent deal. But there is no SISU out campaign that is really active, there is no real fight going in that direction. A challenge to Wasps even less so

There is no one interested in protesting anymore.
For anything to happen someone will have to start a new group and initiate it all.

Paxman II · Nov 30, 2018

oldskyblue58 said:
But it isnt "we (CCFC 'the club') who can legally sign any deal ................ which means any such deal would be a waste of paper. Wasps wouldnt be legally entitled to collect the rent from CCFC the club and there is nothing requiring Otium to pay it. Authority has to come from the Otium Director who has to act on the owners instructions to sign a deal. CCFC is not actually a legal entity it is presently the trading name of a legal entity

Yes I understand that and it was a somewhat tongue in cheek comment. The premise is deal with WASP as a CCFC first, get a compromise drawn up and then go and get SISU to sign off on it. The fact remains CCFC will one day not be owned by SISU and WASP need to recognize that in the wider sphere which includes the community they too operate in.

Grendel · Nov 30, 2018

letsallsingtogether said:
There is no one interested in protesting anymore.
For anything to happen someone will have to start a new group and initiate it all.

Why does everything have to be a protest? Why when the Trust are in the media isn’t the first thing they do condemn wasps, the franchise philosophy and that no one from Coventry should attend?

Adge · Nov 30, 2018

Grendel said:
Why does everything have to be a protest? Why when the Trust are in the media isn’t the first thing they do condemn wasps, the franchise philosophy and that no one from Coventry should attend?

It’s not them that are carrying on with legal proceedings though is it? :emoji_thinking:

Grendel · Nov 30, 2018

Adge said:
It’s not them that are carrying on with legal proceedings though is it? :emoji_thinking:

So you oppose democracy and the legal system? Seriously?

Adge · Nov 30, 2018

Grendel said:
So you oppose democracy and the legal system? Seriously?

Should they be here-NO. Should the council have sold the Ricoh to them-NO. Now remind us all of who is applying to the Supreme Court again?

duffer · Nov 30, 2018

thekidfromstrettoncamp said:
Adge you are not the only person to say they should not have sold the Ricoh to Wasps but put yourself in council position you want to relieve yourself of it. The club had already moved to Northampton liquidation the club to make sure they(the council ,the ratepayers) did not get what was legally owed to them . They had said they would not pay anywhere near the price Wasps paid thinking they were the only show in town . Should the council have hung on waiting for a change of heart? I think not and I am not a Coventry ratepayer . Their(Sisu) previous and latter actions prove their move was right.

I am a Coventry ratepayer, well Council Tax at least, and I'd politely disagree.

If selling to Wasps damages the local football team significantly, as it clearly is, then that's hugely disadvantageous to the city from both a commercial and a cultural point of view. And that's before even considering the morals of it all...

CJ_covblaze · Nov 30, 2018

Grendel said:
Why does everything have to be a protest? Why when the Trust are in the media isn’t the first thing they do condemn wasps, the franchise philosophy and that no one from Coventry should attend?

We’ve never told anyone to boycott anything. Why do we have any right to tell people how to spend their hard earned?

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