Danceswithhorses
Well-Known Member
Unsure as to why the club have left it this long to tell the fans of the debt for equity swap ?
£61m of debt wiped out in latest CCFC accounts (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter SimonGilbert
- Start date
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I dunno. Converting the massive debt millstone into equity can really only be seen one way. Even if you believe the FL madeit happen, it's still massive news for the club.
lifelongcityfan
Well-Known Member
i am an accountant btw...just havent looked into the numbers
I would also add that debt attracts interest if unpaid, whilst equity does not.
I would also add that debt attracts interest if unpaid, whilst equity does not.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Waiting for the Mowbray appointment for a good news double whammy?
These things come in threes, maybe we'll even get plans for the stadium...
ointlaugh:
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
Sure that Fisher said that had happened before the admin, but turned out that it hadn't at the time.
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
Massive good or massive bad ..im a bit simple sorry
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
What value? The club's still worth fuck all, it's just Sisu own a lot more of that fuck all.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Massive good IMO. As we saw with the admin process the debt gives Sisu a lever even after they "leave" the club. It would need to be serviced or at least renegotiated and the payments or prospective payments would weight the club down for years.
Now it's equity, if and when Sisu give up the club, that's them gone (apart from any new debt run up). They're never going to convince anyone the club is worth £60m so for all intents and purposes it's written off debt. Making the club far more valuable to prospective buyers (or, you know a fans consortium - c'mon Grendel pull your finger out!)
lifelongcityfan
Well-Known Member
totally agree.. the colllective value of the shares equates to the net assets of the club plus whatever the brand/golden share is worth...so who has a pound?
The better news is that if SISU want to see a return they have to increase the value of the club then sell
mattylad
Member
They have converted the debt in to shares so the value of those shares (to them not the general market) is 61m and as no one is going to pay even a qtr of that for the shares there will be no sale anytime soon.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
Point taken, its just the same thing happens every year. A massive deal is made of them every year, one side try to dress it up one way and the other side the other. Then OSB comes in and speaks in riddles which I don't understand and then we do it all again in 12 months.
lifelongcityfan
Well-Known Member
The value of shares is not determined by what you pay for them; it is determined by the worth of what they represent.... tthe club s not worth 61m
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
They have to make it stop hemorrhaging £7M every year.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
We were always going to be sold when Joy has had enough, this doesn't change that. In the real world, the club is worth nothing as it has no real assets. Therefore the shares are worth nothing, regardless of what was paid for them.
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
So its basically ..do poorly and never get a return on their investment ..or get the club up the leagues to make the shares look appealing ..or just completely wipe them off and sell for basically a 9 million debt
mattylad
Member
Correct the shares are worth nothing on the general market the only people they are worth anything to is SISU. Look at it like buying a vintage car for £10000 then the market for that car dropping out and it being worth £1....you face a choice which is pay the running/storage costs of that car in the hope it gets back to the £10,000 or you can sell it ending up with no car and having lost the £10,000...you would keep the car in the same way they will keep hold of CCFC in the hope it reaches a figure close to what they have turned into shares.
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italiahorse
Well-Known Member
As I said before.
IMHO when you enter into administration the debts are automatically wiped out and all debtors usual agree to take a %.
That % would have been governed by the amount paid by Otium for the company in administration.
Looks like SISU have taken their % in shares.
Not an accountant but it always seemed strange to me that we still had debts when we came out of administration.
IMHO when you enter into administration the debts are automatically wiped out and all debtors usual agree to take a %.
That % would have been governed by the amount paid by Otium for the company in administration.
Looks like SISU have taken their % in shares.
Not an accountant but it always seemed strange to me that we still had debts when we came out of administration.
jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
Finally the football league score......GOoooooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal !!!!
Whooop whoooooooooop whoop....
Whooop whoooooooooop whoop....
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
And shares can be just handed over ..like city fans did for sisu when they first came
mattylad
Member
If only! what in SISU's behavioural pattern up to now makes you think that they will give them away.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
One thing that is slightly odd is why wasn't Fisher shouting this from the rooftops when it happened? Granted everyone would have probably said he was lying but writing off £61m is a pretty big deal in anyones books so why not communicate that to the fanbase and spin it as a good thing SISU have done for the love of the club.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
OK, but would you if the car is losing you £3k/year? You can either spend some cash doing up the car and hope to sell it, or it will cost you at least that much in the future or more. The fact is, you're now not selling the shitty caravan welded to the vintage car as well, so people are more likely to give it a test drive.
Or something.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
The club isn't breaking even, they have seen what happens when they try to run at break even. What options do they have left? They either add value by making the club a success or they give up and walk away to avoid pumping millions more in.
Danceswithhorses
Well-Known Member
Made a similar post (#36).
Why would they not want us to know this until now ?
It appears that they've only divulged the info, after the accounts have been filed and scrutinized.
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mattylad
Member
1) he's a muppet 2) he has no idea about good PR 3) he was too busy pretending to look at stadium sites 4) he was too busy untying balloons from his car 5) he's a muppet
mattylad
Member
Me I would spend the 3k others like OSB would argue spending the money in the past has not brought us success just more debts and a car still worth a £1
mattylad
Member
“We still need to be able to access all match day and non-match day revenue and that is why stadium ownership is absolutely essential" note he does not say building a stadium...could mean something or nothing with this bloke but its not the usual we must build message.
Their is still some bad points in the article though like -
Other plans to improve the business performance reference improved on-field performance and selling on Academy-produced talent.
So anyone who is decent will be sold.
The accounts also show that the club has retained an option on returning to Sixfields should there be a problem at the Ricoh Arena.
With stadium never ever , we could find ourselves back their one day with we are not careful.
Other plans to improve the business performance reference improved on-field performance and selling on Academy-produced talent.
So anyone who is decent will be sold.
The accounts also show that the club has retained an option on returning to Sixfields should there be a problem at the Ricoh Arena.
With stadium never ever , we could find ourselves back their one day with we are not careful.
kg82
Well-Known Member
Haven't read every post. The way I read the article is that for them to gain anywhere near the amount by selling is to get to the Prem. So that surely has to be a kick up the backside to show some ambition and start investing in the playing side? It would be a win/win. Or am I being overly optimistic/naive?!
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
So this debt, that wasn't real debt has been converted into shares. Are they real shares? 
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I have only had a quick look but I think I must be seeing something other to the CT
For starters Otium is not the parent company at all it is still the subsidiary of SBS&L. Otium is the trading company not SBS&L
Next thing - if you are looking at the debt to ARVO and SISU then you have to look at the group debt of SBS&L not Otium. The Debt to SISU investors is still 28.5m and there is 656K in accrued interest on top of that in relation to a number of years.
On top of that ARVO are owed 8.2m plus accrued interest of 1.39m
The actual external share capital of the group remains at £13698
It looks on a very brief glance that the old loans included in the CCFCH accounts dating back to pre 2008 have been converted to shares in Otium. These loans should in my opinion have been written off in 2008.
Net debt of the Group remains at £41m
Now you could look at Otium as a seperate company. Otium bought the assets of CCFc Ltd and owned CCFC H Ltd. Prior to CCFC H being wound up then its assets and liabilities were shifted to Otium. That included the old loan liability which would appear to have been converted to shares in Otium. those shares being Class B shares now owned by SBS&L B shares have no voting rights. What the conversion does is to move liability to equity and to permit the owners to portray a write off of loans that had no value anyway.
Its playing with figures. Think about it Otium only started to trade in 2013 how would it have £61m in debt to convert in to shares. Keep in mind be it SBS&L or London Wasps it is the external liabilities that count. SBS&L Group has a balance sheet of MINUS 39m
Will take a more detailed look and come back with some analysis, but this really isnt writing off the debts
Also the CT article I read appears to be inaccurate in a number of places
For starters Otium is not the parent company at all it is still the subsidiary of SBS&L. Otium is the trading company not SBS&L
Next thing - if you are looking at the debt to ARVO and SISU then you have to look at the group debt of SBS&L not Otium. The Debt to SISU investors is still 28.5m and there is 656K in accrued interest on top of that in relation to a number of years.
On top of that ARVO are owed 8.2m plus accrued interest of 1.39m
The actual external share capital of the group remains at £13698
It looks on a very brief glance that the old loans included in the CCFCH accounts dating back to pre 2008 have been converted to shares in Otium. These loans should in my opinion have been written off in 2008.
Net debt of the Group remains at £41m
Now you could look at Otium as a seperate company. Otium bought the assets of CCFc Ltd and owned CCFC H Ltd. Prior to CCFC H being wound up then its assets and liabilities were shifted to Otium. That included the old loan liability which would appear to have been converted to shares in Otium. those shares being Class B shares now owned by SBS&L B shares have no voting rights. What the conversion does is to move liability to equity and to permit the owners to portray a write off of loans that had no value anyway.
Its playing with figures. Think about it Otium only started to trade in 2013 how would it have £61m in debt to convert in to shares. Keep in mind be it SBS&L or London Wasps it is the external liabilities that count. SBS&L Group has a balance sheet of MINUS 39m
Will take a more detailed look and come back with some analysis, but this really isnt writing off the debts
Also the CT article I read appears to be inaccurate in a number of places