Jeremy corbyn (1 Viewer)

shmmeee · Sep 9, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
Did you miss the fact that Labour moved from a position of honouring the result in 2017 to a remain party? This is a remain dominated parliament and the balance will be corrected at a GE which is why you fear it.

What are you on about? Labour didn’t form the government, the Conservatives did. Why is the rights go to argument always “but what about Labour?” Regardless if it’s appropriateness? And my only fear for an election is that we’ll end up back where we were with a hung parliament because ultimately there’s no consensus on the way forward.

Both parties ran on an orderly Brexit, the two elements stopping that are the Remainers on the opposition bench, but opposing is kinda their thing, being the opposition, and the ERG Brexit purists who rebelled against their own party to stop an orderly Brexit. The Tories a harder Brexit than Labour, but both Brexit.

No deal has no mandate, as shown by the government losing its majority when it became clear that it had changed policy privately, if not publicly. Johnson could Brexit by November easily by bringing Mays deal back, and I expect that’s what he’ll have to do to save face. Soft Brexit Labour MPs like Kinnock and Nandy would back it and the vast majority of Tories including pretty much all the rebels would back it. That would override the ERG wrecking votes.

The only people to blame for the shitshow are those that pushed for Brexit without a plan. If anyone, literally anyone, had stepped forward with a cohesive exit strategy they’ve have had their hand snapped off. And between 17.4m of you (plus a fair few foreigners), you’ve come up with .......... “do nothing and hope for the best”.

Slow. Hand. Clap.

dutchman said:
Since they have no intention of honouring any result with which they disagree it is absolutely pointless holding one.

“They” are a fair representation of the public, they are pretty much split three ways between Remain, Deal and no deal and therefore none have a majority even if they have a plurality. The problem is a workable deal, not whatever boogeyman has been dragged up this week, be it the electorate or their representatives.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 9, 2019

shmmeee said:
TBF the answer here is to restrict parenthood not expand the right to vote

Personally I’m against votes at 16, but I spent ten years working with 16 year olds every day. I’d even push it up to 21, there’s a biological argument for 25 as that’s when empathy and reasoning skills are fully formed.

It was just a point of saying how the laws of this country have somehow conspired to decide that 16 is mature enough to care for children but not mature enough to vote. If anything the age of consent should arguably be raised, but then it just makes it more rebellious and attractive to them.

I take on board the argument for 21/25 but it's far more individual than that. Some 14 year olds could be trusted to vote sensibly, some 40 year olds can't. It can be down to individual circumstances. Would you say the likes of Alexander, JRM and Trump show empathy? Whereas a youngster who has to regularly care for younger siblings or a sick relative can to a certain degree.

chiefdave · Sep 9, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
We've had three years of a Remain-dominated parliament. Now you want that same 76/24 parliament to produce a 'final' referendum question no doubt skewed in the favour of remain to finally overturn the original result.

SIR ERNIE said:
the reason you’re scared of a General Election is that it would rightly give the Electorate the opportunity to express whether it would like to elect a new parliament with a more accurate representation of the Brexit split to then implement the referendum result.

How does the logic work that the result of a future general election will be an accurate representation but the result of the last general election, which of course took place after the Brexit vote, isn't an accurate representation?

fernandopartridge · Sep 9, 2019

Ernie, here's some highlights from the Tory manifesto of 2017 as you seem to be ignoring it

Exit the European single market and customs union but seek a "deep and special partnership" including comprehensive free trade and customs agreement

Vote in both Houses of Parliament on "final agreement" for Brexit

Assess whether to continue with specific European programmes and it "will be reasonable that we make a contribution" to the ones which continue

Agree terms of future partnership with EU alongside withdrawal, both within the two years allowed under Article 50

Convert EU law into UK law and later allow parliament to pass legislation to "amend, repeal or improve" any piece of this

Remain signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights for the next parliament

Repeal or replace the Human Rights Act "while the process of Brexit is under way" ruled out, although consideration will be given to the UK's "human rights legal framework" when Brexit concludes

Reduce and control immigration from Europe after Brexit

Seek to replicate all existing EU free trade agreements

Support the ratification of trade agreements entered into during our EU membership

Introduce a Trade Bill in the next parliament

SkyblueBazza · Sep 10, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Again I'm talking in a parallel universe

Enough said!

That is where many (thankfully not all) appear to be pinning their hopes.

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SkyblueBazza · Sep 10, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
And what if public opinion has changed in light of the reams of new evidence?

But it isn't proper evidence is it? It's educated guesswork. Sometimes it is right & sometimes it is wrong...

Bank of England scales back estimate for worst-case Brexit GDP hit - Reuters

UK economy shows unexpected strength in July, dampening recession fears - Reuters

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skybluetony176 · Sep 10, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
But it isn't proper evidence is it? It's educated guesswork. Sometimes it is right & sometimes it is wrong...

Bank of England scales back estimate for worst-case Brexit GDP hit - Reuters

UK economy shows unexpected strength in July, dampening recession fears - Reuters

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It won’t be the easiest deal in the world isn’t guess work. People aren’t lining up to do deals with us isn’t guess work. We can’t have our cake and eat it isn’t guess work. No £360M a week windfall for the NHS isn’t guess work. These are all promises from the leave campaign that have either been backtracked/rescinded or have failed to materialise.

Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 10, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
Enough said!

That is where many (thankfully not all) appear to be pinning their hopes.

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Few actually expect it to happen.

Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 10, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
But it isn't proper evidence is it? It's educated guesswork. Sometimes it is right & sometimes it is wrong...

Bank of England scales back estimate for worst-case Brexit GDP hit - Reuters

UK economy shows unexpected strength in July, dampening recession fears - Reuters

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We haven’t left yet. I think the government’s internal planning paints a different picture and it’s telling that JRM and others stopped talking of an immediate dividend long ago. The pound has taken a beating in the past 3 years thanks to this exercise and for all the talk of ‘a run on the pound under Jezza’, there is no criticism of Team Twat for their actual damage to the currency.

SIR ERNIE · Sep 10, 2019

shmmeee said:
Both parties ran on an orderly Brexit, the two elements stopping that are the Remainers on the opposition bench, but opposing is kinda their thing, being the opposition, and the ERG Brexit purists who rebelled against their own party to stop an orderly Brexit. The Tories a harder Brexit than Labour, but both Brexit.

No deal has no mandate, as shown by the government losing its majority when it became clear that it had changed policy privately, if not publicly. Johnson could Brexit by November easily by bringing Mays deal back, and I expect that’s what he’ll have to do to save face. Soft Brexit Labour MPs like Kinnock and Nandy would back it and the vast majority of Tories including pretty much all the rebels would back it. That would override the ERG wrecking votes.

Hahaha disingenuous and you know it…or maybe you don’t…perhaps you really do believe that May’s deal is what Leavers voted for. Without that of course you have no argument.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 10, 2019

May's deal is far closer to what was touted by the Leave campaign than no deal.

Please tell us exactly what all 'leavers' voted for? Or is it that you can't because there wasn't any actual plan or idea of what 'leave' actually would mean? And three years later there still isn't.

Grendel · Sep 10, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
May's deal is far closer to what was touted by the Leave campaign than no deal.

Please tell us exactly what all 'leavers' voted for? Or is it that you can't because there wasn't any actual plan or idea of what 'leave' actually would mean? And three years later there still isn't.

What did remainers vote for? Was it continuity or greater integration? Does every one of them have an identical view

It’s very hard to believe that many voting leave would have wanted a customs union FOM or to continue the financial contributions

Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 10, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
Hahaha disingenuous and you know it…or maybe you don’t…perhaps you really do believe that May’s deal is what Leavers voted for. Without that of course you have no argument.

The advantage of vacuous phrases like ‘take back control’ is that anyone can draw their own meaning from it. Some wanted us to be like Norway, others wanted to flip off Europe more thoroughly.

skybluetony176 · Sep 10, 2019

Grendel said:
What did remainers vote for? Was it continuity or greater integration? Does every one of them have an identical view

It’s very hard to believe that many voting leave would have wanted a customs union FOM or to continue the financial contributions

Then give the people the opportunity to clarify that. Have just a leave referendum if you like. EEA vs customs union vs Canada + vs hard brexit with a second preference vote if none of the options pass 50% on the first round, add the second preference vote to the first round numbers and largest number wins. There’s more than one way to settle this using voting methods that are used in the U.K.

I think we both know that hard brexit will be a distant 4th though.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 10, 2019

Grendel said:
What did remainers vote for? Was it continuity or greater integration? Does every one of them have an identical view

It’s very hard to believe that many voting leave would have wanted a customs union FOM or to continue the financial contributions

To Remain in the EU. It's unlikely they all wanted the same thing long term - some would've been happy for it to stay the same, some would've wanted reform, some further integration. But at the time they all agreed they wished to remain part of the Union.

Now if Leave had come out from the start and just said we're leaving lock stock and barrel. No trade deal, no Common Market, no Freedom of Movement which would result in a hard Irish border, no more HRA, no longer part of the EU Arrest Warrant, science and space programs etc and people had voted for that fine. At least we'd have had a definitive answer on exactly what we were doing (no deal) and we could have got on with it and we couldn't have the govt/parliament arguing that 'this isn't the Brexit people voted for'.

But none of them did that. Every single one, including Farage put forward numerous different options of bits to keep, bits to get rid of without any clue that it was feasible to achieve. We had Norway+, Switzerland+, Canada+.....

Not everyone who voted leave wanted to do so in it's entirety and were under the impression we could pick and choose. This wasn't true and had they been told or realised that from the start they might've voted differently.

It had no actual true meaning - it could be interpreted however an individual wanted.

It'd be like a party putting in the manifesto that they're going to get tough on crime. To do that they say they might employ another 10,000 police officers. Or they might create 1,000 RoboCops. Or they might add ecstacy to the water supply to reduce violent crime, or they might just privatise the entire police force. Loads of options there and people could latch onto whichever one they liked and vote for it. So when that party win and decide they want to add ecstacy to the water supply there's people saying "but you said you'd employ 10k more officers". Others are complaining about why RoboCop isn't patrolling the streets. And then they find that they're not allowed to add ecstacy to the water supply anyway and it was never actually a realistic option in the first place.

NorthernWisdom · Sep 10, 2019

I'd like a hard left Brexit please. Import tariffs, state ownership of industry, increased taxation, and state aid wherever possible.

Brexit means Brexit, and that's a nice hard Brexit.

skybluetony176 · Sep 10, 2019

NorthernWisdom said:
Brexit means Brexit, and that's a nice hard Brexit.

Houchens Head · Sep 10, 2019

I'll just leave this here!...…...

SkyblueBazza · Sep 11, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
It won’t be the easiest deal in the world isn’t guess work. People aren’t lining up to do deals with us isn’t guess work. We can’t have our cake and eat it isn’t guess work. No £360M a week windfall for the NHS isn’t guess work. These are all promises from the leave campaign that have either been backtracked/rescinded or have failed to materialise.

They are guesses as well. Much more might have happened or is happening behind the scenes than they tell us Tony. You do know that?

That is where your problem is though. In your head it appears there was only one set of lies - & all on the same side.

And it doesn't change the fact that they are educated guesses. By Carney's adjusting he proves that. The guesses just change as more information becomes available.

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Sky Blue Pete · Sep 11, 2019

Does anyone genuinely think labour has a chance in an election with Mr Corbyn as leader?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 11, 2019

Not really - I do think he puts some people off and others he doesn't have enough personality about him to get them on board. I quite like his more restrained nature to the bombastic personality led politics of the likes of Alexander and Trump, but it doesn't enthuse you. He has also seemed to have put becoming PM higher on his list than it was previously.

But more than that is the dithering and mixed messages on policy. Were looking for a different Brexit deal - we're second referendum - we're Remain - we're Brexit again. Plus the "we want an election, but we're not going to vote for one".

Tories are a shit show, but Labour are no better.

Otis · Sep 11, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
Does anyone genuinely think labour has a chance in an election with Mr Corbyn as leader?

Nope. Unfortunately not. Need a new leader I think.

skybluetony176 · Sep 11, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
Does anyone genuinely think labour has a chance in an election with Mr Corbyn as leader?

Nope. But latest poll analysis show that although Labour will be big losers in a general election as things stand conservatives aren’t going to make enough gains to outweigh their losses so the only parties set to make significant gains on mainland U.K. is the Lib Dem’s and SNP. If there’s a general election what happens in Northern Ireland might have a massive say in the outcome yet again.

Ian1779 · Sep 11, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
Does anyone genuinely think labour has a chance in an election with Mr Corbyn as leader?

Yes - they have better policies and ideas to make this country better. We need to move on from ‘personality politics’ because that’s the reason why we are in this shitstorm.

That said - I think a Lab/SNP coalition is more likely.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 11, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Nope. But latest poll analysis show that although Labour will be big losers in a general election as things stand conservatives aren’t going to make enough gains to outweigh their losses so the only parties set to make significant gains on mainland U.K. is the Lib Dem’s and SNP. If there’s a general election what happens in Northern Ireland might have a massive say in the outcome yet again.

That's why they're trying to hold out post 31 Oct because if Brexit has had another extension then Brexit Ltd are likely going to gain mainly from Tory which will help them, although there is the risk of the big cities which are pro-Leave but also largely Labour. Or on the other hand we go no deal in which those that didn't want no deal will be annoyed and there's a chance they may vote elsewhere too.

Trouble is I can't really see anyone else that'd really get people on board with Labour. Chukka used to be an potential option (though not ideal) until he decided to become a political squatter.

I guess just someone new and relatively underheard of could get a Clegg-like boost by seeming impressive by not just shitting themselves in a debate but haven't received enough scrutiny to be proven as inept as everyone else.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 11, 2019

Ian1779 said:
Yes - they have better policies and ideas to make this country better. We need to move on from ‘personality politics’ because that’s the reason why we are in this shitstorm.

That said - I think a Lab/SNP coalition is more likely.

I agree we need to move on, but the reality is that is largely what it'll come down to - a personality battle between Alexander and Corbyn. Absolute chalk and cheese. One will get on the nerves of one side of the political divide, the other will annoy the other side

Otis · Sep 11, 2019

Ian1779 said:
Yes - they have better policies and ideas to make this country better. We need to move on from ‘personality politics’ because that’s the reason why we are in this shitstorm.

That said - I think a Lab/SNP coalition is more likely.

Yes, tend to agree. The Lib Dems have a sniff of power in their lungs, but don't think they have a cat in hell's chance of getting in.

Ian1779 · Sep 11, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I agree we need to move on, but the reality is that is largely what it'll come down to - a personality battle between Alexander and Corbyn. Absolute chalk and cheese. One will get on the nerves of one side of the political divide, the other will annoy the other side

Alexander will have the corporate and MSM media on his side. Corbyn has the social media on his. It may come down to who can mobilise more effectively on the ground.

I know who I think can do this better.

Grendel · Sep 11, 2019

Ian1779 said:
Yes - they have better policies and ideas to make this country better. We need to move on from ‘personality politics’ because that’s the reason why we are in this shitstorm.

That said - I think a Lab/SNP coalition is more likely.

Corbyn will allow the National socialist yet another stab at independence - how ironic

Ian1779 · Sep 11, 2019

Grendel said:
Corbyn will allow the National socialist yet another stab at independence - how ironic

Maybe - however when the Tories are wiped out in Scotland... which will happen, it might indicate that this may now be the will of the people.

After all we know how much you are all for democracy....

SkyblueBazza · Sep 11, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
Does anyone genuinely think labour has a chance in an election with Mr Corbyn as leader?

No. After criticising the PM about scrutinity & lack of clarity...Labour's only 1/2 coherent plan was to remove the option of a no deal & therefore restrict ability for the UK to negotiate.

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Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 11, 2019

Grendel said:
National socialist - how ironic

Very witty! Even better than the 4th Reich bullshit!

Ian1779 · Sep 11, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
No. After criticising the PM about scrutinity & lack of clarity...Labour's only 1/2 coherent plan was to remove the option of a no deal & therefore restrict ability for the UK to negotiate.

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Where in the previous 3 years have this government shown any capacity to negotiate?

Yet apparently it’s all about the no-deal....

Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 11, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
No. After criticising the PM about scrutinity & lack of clarity...Labour's only 1/2 coherent plan was to remove the option of a no deal & therefore restrict ability for the UK to negotiate.

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No Deal doesn't act as leverage the EU have been ready for it for ages. Embarrassing stuff

Ian1779 · Sep 11, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Very witty! Even better than the 4th Reich bullshit!

Sounds like Daily Mail bingo to me.

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