The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (15 Viewers)

Astute said:

Have you forgotten that everyone has read what you have put?

I'd love a debate. But one based on truth. So that counts you out.

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Yeah I stand by what I said, you actually stifle debate by not understanding what people write and then having petulant tantrums.

NorthernWisdom said:

What kind of political life is it when Michael Give seems a stellar public speaker when compared to his Prime Minister?!?

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Gove is such a c*nt and his wife is vile.

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NorthernWisdom said:

How remain is his seat? It'd surely be under threat?

At least he's trying to get an election before he backtracks on his Heathrow runway pledges.

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It’s pretty Remain 5k majority down from 11k in 2017. There’s been rumours that they’ll move him somewhere safer but the optics would be terrible.

NorthernWisdom said:

For voting against his government?

Yeah, let's sack every MP who votes against their government...

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What we could do with is mass resignations from all parties. Have two parties for a GE. The Tories in some sort of form on one side and everyone else on the other. Brexit or no Brexit. No need for another referendum.

We need this bullshit to stop one way or the other. We can't be constantly kept on hold. People's futures are at stake. Milliins of retirements are coming up. People are trying to decide where to live. Money is being wasted by companies on what to do if we leave without a deal or get a deal. And we don't even know if we will leave for sure.

Just call a date. No more extensions. Everyone get around a table.

djr8369 said:

No sorry, I was watching on Parliament TV, it’s also on BBC Parliament channel. Still on going but Gove is taking questions now. There are a few video snippets on twitter.


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Just saw some, quite incredible. He’s probably the worst person to have in charge during such a crucial time for the country

skybluetony176 said:

A) there’s only one version of remain.

B) several parties offer several versions of leave. The Tory Party is even offering two versions on their own.

C) which seat is important. Didn’t May increase her vote share and reduce her number of seats? Boris could win the popular vote but if the numbers are concentrated in leave voting traditional Tory strongholds it counts for nothing.

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No the 50 50 point is that the only party standing in the election who will be prepared to leave the Eu will be the Tories

Labour offer no leave option anymore at all - a confused statement on a referendum - so actually the Lib Dem’s and labour are offering a difference - one a referendum the other to remain anyway (as will the greens)

The Brexit party will in all probability not stand candidates in many seats

Mays seat reduction was predominately down to a collapse in votes for UKIP not all moving back to the Tories and critically the Lib Dem vote falling apart. The Lib Dem vote will return back to normal this time round

Grendel said:

The greens in a general election are an irrelevance and their vote would probably go to the undems anyway and there is no way that they will form a pre election pact with labour

It now seems that labour will refuse the election so despite Tony and BSB insisting the government can call one they cannot

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Which is great G, except as you well know the government can propose an early election and if it has 2/3 backing it will happen. Not very bright for such a cocky prick

Astute said:

What we could do with is mass resignations from all parties. Have two parties for a GE. The Tories in some sort of form on one side and everyone else on the other. Brexit or no Brexit. No need for another referendum.

We need this bullshit to stop one way or the other. We can't be constantly kept on hold. People's futures are at stake. Milliins of retirements are coming up. People are trying to decide where to live. Money is being wasted by companies on what to do if we leave without a deal or get a deal. And we don't even know if we will leave for sure.

Just call a date. No more extensions. Everyone get around a table.

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In that case all you’d need is deflections from the Tories to the Brexit Party, which is the rightful home of the likes of Rees Mogg, Patel et al

Sick Boy said:

Yeah I stand by what I said, you actually stifle debate by not understanding what people write and then having petulant tantrums.

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Don't understand me saying how areas around the EU will be affected. You call it bullshit for months. Then you provided a link saying exactly what I have said. Then the insults come out trying to make out that I am thick.

Yeah OK SB.

Astute said:

Don't understand me saying how areas around the EU will be affected. You call it bullshit for months. Then you provided a link saying exactly what I have said. Then the insults come out trying to make out that I am thick.

Yeah OK SB.

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Can you show me where I’ve insulted you? I don’t think I’ve ever actually insulted you and have actually invited you to drink together if you’re ever in Italy.

Grendel said:

No the 50 50 point is that the only party standing in the election who will be prepared to leave the Eu will be the Tories

Labour offer no leave option anymore at all - a confused statement on a referendum - so actually the Lib Dem’s and labour are offering a difference - one a referendum the other to remain anyway (as will the greens)

The Brexit party will in all probability not stand candidates in many seats

Mays seat reduction was predominately down to a collapse in votes for UKIP not all moving back to the Tories and critically the Lib Dem vote falling apart. The Lib Dem vote will return back to normal this time round

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Again, if they had any sense they'd work with Labour and not stand against one another in certain seats, if Brexit Party decide to do the same with Tories.

They won't, of course.

In terms of winning power, the left and centrre-left just isn't ruthless enough!

Astute said:

What we could do with is mass resignations from all parties. Have two parties for a GE. The Tories in some sort of form on one side and everyone else on the other. Brexit or no Brexit. No need for another referendum.

We need this bullshit to stop one way or the other. We can't be constantly kept on hold. People's futures are at stake. Milliins of retirements are coming up. People are trying to decide where to live. Money is being wasted by companies on what to do if we leave without a deal or get a deal. And we don't even know if we will leave for sure.

Just call a date. No more extensions. Everyone get around a table.

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I don’t buy the argument that no deal will give businesses any certainty or save them money. It would mean some actioning plans to move aspects of the business out of the country while everyone else scrambles to function within a WTO framework. However, they still wouldn’t know what will happen long term as they’ll have to wait and see what will come from any future deal that’s negotiated. No deal just puts everyone in limbo for several years while we negotiate from a position of chaos.

The only way I can see a no deal exit possibly working is if the date is set for say 5 years away and proper plans and contingencies are put in place but this would require an acceptance of some kind of withdrawal agreement.


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Astute said:

At least you could tell us how much of an amazing job he has done once he has gone .

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But he hasn’t?

I know people having opinions based on thinking about the events that happen and not what they’ve been told to say by their “side” but be weird for you to handle, sorry.

Grendel said:

Boris Johnson will be very centrist in policy - he’s got no Tory values, will happily throw money around, will be liberal over drug legislation if the need arises and will happily support the lazy and the indolent

His actual social and economic policies will make Blair look like a far right extremist

This im sure is going to cause you to choke on your corned beef sandwich but Johnson will want to be a man to all people

It’s also interesting that He’s control is akin to that thatcher and Campbell (who was really the prime minister) and they lasted for a decade each in power

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Why would I want someone who thinks returning the money that was cut over a decade is a grand act of generosity?

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Which is great G, except as you well know the government can propose an early election and if it has 2/3 backing it will happen. Not very bright for such a cocky prick

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Apparently we never said that and it was him making that point all along. Except when he needs that point to disappear in which case we did make that point and we’re wrong.

NorthernWisdom said:

Again, if they had any sense they'd work with Labour and not stand against one another in certain seats, if Brexit Party decide to do the same with Tories.

They won't, of course.

In terms of winning power, the left and centrre-left just isn't ruthless enough!

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It's completely in their interest to have an election, they have fuck all MPs and nothing to lose. Labour would be insane to agree to one and should steer clear until the shitstorm blows over.

Sick Boy said:

In that case all you’d need is deflections from the Tories to the Brexit Party, which is the rightful home of the likes of Rees Mogg, Patel et al

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The Tories and Brexit party would become one. Anyone wanting Brexit could join them. Those in the parties that don't want what their leaders want just leave. Then there could be freedom of speech. Nobody could be threatened.

Would the MP's go the way of their voters or follow what they really want?

Give us a political bloodbath and start again.

skybluetony176 said:

Apparently we never said that and it was him making that point all along. Except when he needs that point to disappear in which case we did make that point and we’re wrong.

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He didn't add any caveats, he just said that it's down to Labour to initiate an election. Like he also said that the 2017 election would put Labour out for a generation but still can't say whether or not he was wrong

shmmeee said:

But he hasn’t?

I know people having opinions based on thinking about the events that happen and not what they’ve been told to say by their “side” but be weird for you to handle, sorry.

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So how many people think May did an amazing job like you say she did? Nobody will even say she did a good job. Because she didn't.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

It's completely in their interest to have an election, they have fuck all MPs and nothing to lose. Labour would be insane to agree to one and should steer clear until the shitstorm blows over.

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Personally I'd force Johnson to sort out the mess of his making, rather than try and blame well... just about everyone bar him.

And if he can't, he can quit. Perhaps after this unmitigated disaster, and threats to MPs of deselection, the idea of a National Government to set in process a referendum may not be as unpalatable as it was to some, just a few days ago even.

Astute said:

The Tories and Brexit party would become one. Anyone wanting Brexit could join them. Those in the parties that don't want what their leaders want just leave. Then there could be freedom of speech. Nobody could be threatened.

Would the MP's go the way of their voters or follow what they really want?

Give us a political bloodbath and start again.

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The Brexit Party has no manifesto and no policies except for No Deal. Quite easy to persuade people to vote for you when there's no policies to disagree with and a personality cult to get behind.

djr8369 said:

I don’t buy the argument that no deal will give businesses any certainty or save them money.

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Would you like to point out where I said that?

NorthernWisdom said:

Personally I'd force Johnson to sort out the mess of his making, rather than try and blame well... just about everyone bar him.

And if he can't, he can quit. Perhaps after this unmitigated disaster, and threats to MPs of deselection, the idea of a National Government to set in process a referendum may not be as unpalatable as it was to some, just a few days ago even.

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The answer is so blatantly a second referendum it's mind numbingly frustrating. Swinson wants more MPs, Corbyn is deludedly wanting another election and Johnson wants to flip off Europe ASAP.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

The Brexit Party has no manifesto and no policies except for No Deal. Quite easy to persuade people to vote for you when there's no policies to disagree with and a personality cult to get behind.

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So leaving without a deal isn't a policy?

Would you vote for them? Of course not. And all because of their single policy.

Astute said:

Would you like to point out where I said that?

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Astute said:

Money is being wasted by companies on what to do if we leave without a deal or get a deal. .

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Brighton Sky Blue said:

Which is great G, except as you well know the government can propose an early election and if it has 2/3 backing it will happen. Not very bright for such a cocky prick

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The point made was can a government trigger an election and they can’t - a no confidence motion is the only way that this can be done

It has - however - been pretty much confirmed Mr Johnson can change the date if it was agreed whenever he liked

Brighton Sky Blue said:

The answer is so blatantly a second referendum it's mind numbingly frustrating. Swinson wants more MPs, Corbyn is deludedly wanting another election and Johnson wants to flip off Europe ASAP.

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Yup. I'd even fear it might go the way of fuck the EU, whatever damage it does. But at least we can safely say people should know what the consequences are now.

Whether they choose to listen to them is another question(!) but at least we see where we are!

Brighton Sky Blue said:

The Brexit Party has no manifesto and no policies except for No Deal. Quite easy to persuade people to vote for you when there's no policies to disagree with and a personality cult to get behind.

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Like the Lib Dem’s in reverse

Astute said:

So leaving without a deal isn't a policy?

Would you vote for them? Of course not. And all because of their single policy.

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Brighton Sky Blue said:

The Brexit Party has no manifesto and no policies except for No Deal. .

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Brighton Sky Blue said:

The answer is so blatantly a second referendum it's mind numbingly frustrating. Swinson wants more MPs, Corbyn is deludedly wanting another election and Johnson wants to flip off Europe ASAP.

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So blatantly?

So what if leave won again? Would you accept the result?

If remain won 52% v48% would you be happy if leave argu3d the toss for 3 years or more until there was a 3rd referendum?

NorthernWisdom said:

Personally I'd force Johnson to sort out the mess of his making, rather than try and blame well... just about everyone bar him.

And if he can't, he can quit. Perhaps after this unmitigated disaster, and threats to MPs of deselection, the idea of a National Government to set in process a referendum may not be as unpalatable as it was to some, just a few days ago even.

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Great idea. On both accounts.

Astute said:

So blatantly?

So what if leave won again? Would you accept the result?

If remain won 52% v48% would you be happy if leave argu3d the toss for 3 years or more until there was a 3rd referendum?

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The ref would need to be based on a specific deal or two stages, one to negotiate a new deal and one on wether to accept it. It would also have to be legally binding and properly policed against interference and over spending. These oversights were the issues with the first one.


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Astute said:

What we could do with is mass resignations from all parties. Have two parties for a GE. The Tories in some sort of form on one side and everyone else on the other. Brexit or no Brexit. No need for another referendum.

We need this bullshit to stop one way or the other. We can't be constantly kept on hold. People's futures are at stake. Milliins of retirements are coming up. People are trying to decide where to live. Money is being wasted by companies on what to do if we leave without a deal or get a deal. And we don't even know if we will leave for sure.

Just call a date. No more extensions. Everyone get around a table.

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There isn’t two sides though. There’s three. No Deal Brexit (half the Tories + BXP), Deal Brexit (the other half the Tories + 1/3 Labour), Remain (2/3 Labour + Green + SNP + LD).

Leave has always been a broad coalition.

djr8369 said:

The ref would need to be based on a specific deal or two stages, one to negotiate a new deal and one on wether to accept it. It would also have to be legally binding and properly policed against interference and over spending. These oversights were the issues with the first one.


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Three options: CU, No Deal, Revoke

Rank them in order of preference. Done.

shmmeee said:

There isn’t two sides though. There’s three. No Deal Brexit (half the Tories + BXP), Deal Brexit (the other half the Tories + 1/3 Labour), Remain (2/3 Labour + Green + SNP + LD).

Leave has always been a broad coalition.

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Exactly. Leave have used not defining leave to their advantage but as the reckoning gets closer it’s contradictions are falling apart.


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