Manchester City - 115 Charges (1 Viewer)

[Lamps]

You keep saying wage bill as stated. It’s stated at over £400m

No it isn't. Wage bill is stated at just over half the £400m

Instead of jumping on my posts as usual can you explain how they managed to spend £450m on new players with a wage bill of £400m?

Thought not.

 

[Grendel]

No it isn't. Wage bill is stated at just over half the £400m

Instead of jumping on my posts as usual can you explain how they managed to spend £450m on new players with a wage bill of £400m?

Thought not.

Yes it’s been pointed out several times that the transfers are not dumped into the equation just solely as transfer fees. It’s spread over years and also it’s negating transfer sales which are included and it’s not even the correct year we are referencing. These are prior year accounts

 

[Lamps]

Yes it’s been pointed out several times that the transfers are not dumped into the equation just solely as transfer fees. It’s spread over years and also it’s negating transfer sales which are included and it’s not even the correct year we are referencing. These are prior year accounts

So work it out if you're such an expert.

There's £35m left over if the wage bill is £400m as you say. That £450m has a big hole to go into.

 

[SBAndy]

So work it out if you're such an expert.

There's £35m left over if the wage bill is £400m as you say. That £450m has a big hole to go into.

Why is there £35m left over? What are you on about at this stage? Revenue is £677m. Profit on player trading c.£200m. 70% of £877m is £614m. Wage bill is £408m, this summer’s transfers would generate annual amortisation of £90m. There will still be some residual amortisation of previous signings but they’d be well within the cap - setting aside the fact commercial revenues have been artificially inflated.

 

[skyblue025]

that would be laughed out of court with a "no other team has been expelled from the PL and also the EFL rules are clear that new teams which hey would count as can only join at L2 level and only after a vote of all EFL clubs"

why would if they have broken EFL rules matter, in fact to start at championship would be a breach of efl rules

They aren't a new team though are they? They aren't going into administration and reforming under a new name.
I'll take a charity bet with anyone that Man City don't drop below the Championship at the start of next season.

 

[Lamps]

Why is there £35m left over? What are you on about at this stage? Revenue is £677m. Profit on player trading c.£200m. 70% of £877m is £614m. Wage bill is £408m, this summer’s transfers would generate annual amortisation of £90m. There will still be some residual amortisation of previous signings but they’d be well within the cap - setting aside the fact commercial revenues have been artificially inflated.

There's other things to take off like agents fees. The latest number was £38m. Then you.need to add the Maresca wage. Basic is about £12m. There's about £50m.

They have a lot of signings still in the system. They don't buy cheap players.

 

[robin.starling]

There's other things to take off like agents fees. The latest number was £38m. Then you.need to add the Maresca wage. Basic is about £12m. There's about £50m.

They have a lot of signings still in the system. They don't buy cheap players.

Can you explain how your mathematical excellence is telling you what league they will end up in, please. Thank you.

 

[Lamps]

Can you explain how your mathematical excellence is telling you what league they will end up in, please. Thank you.

That's the easy part

Average points deduction for guilty charge is 4 points, and this is with helping the enquiry. A 456 point deduction wouldn't be sufficient. It would only lead to the Championship. That's why I see it as a big enough points deduction for relegation plus a transfer ban for 3 to 5 years. The transfer ban would hit them hard. Most players would go out of contract in this time and would be free to leave.

And if the counted wage bill is really over £400m they would be in real financial trouble. That would be more than their income even if not a single sponsor left. Their share of the TV rights was about £277m.

Then you have what must be about £200m each year in amortised transfer fees. They could sell players, but the amount carried over would be minus the amortised amount still left. Even then they could only spend a total of 85% of the total figure.

Their best way out would be to sell from their academy. All expenses are not counted but transfer fees would go straight into the income pot. But considering with keeping all the sponsors they would need to cover about £200m. Then with the 85% limit there's another £60m on top of this. They could only count 85% of the money received from their transfer fees, so would have to raise £300m from their sales. So just selling academy players wouldn't be easy to make the money.

On the other side they can overspend by £15m in the Championship and their TV rights should about double this. But that only raises about 10% of what they need.

And even better is everyone would know that they're desperate for money and desperate to sell so won't be able to hold out for big fees.

So yes we would find out very quickly what they count as wages in the Championship. It would either be armageddon or just having to sell a couple of players. I know the rules of UEFA were shown as evidence, but the Championship rules are totally different.

 

[standupforcity]

I hope there's a massive protest at Anfield today.. I know the players aren't to blame but this club has to suffer and feel the pressure big time!

 

[Lamps]

I hope there's a massive protest at Anfield today.. I know the players aren't to blame but this club has to suffer and feel the pressure big time!

Would love to be there. This is where you find out what their players are made of.

Would be good to see them crumble, but I have a feeling it will make them even closer to each other with a siege mentality.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

Even this point shows how far out you are. It's why I said I wouldn't reply to you again.....

Long term? If they go to the Championship it will be for one season. They would get the top Prem money back very quickly. The big reduction would be for 1 year.

Their biggest problem would be if their best players wanted to leave. Would anyone pay Haaland half a million a week plus a big transfer fee if he wanted to leave? We can only guess this part. How could they afford to replace them within the rules? I expect them to get a transfer ban. If so they wouldn't be able to sign anyone.

The effects are long-term due to the reputational fallout. It's baffling how you don't see that?

What happens to their existing commercial deals once the appeal fails and sanctions are imposed? Will those existing commercial partners look to engineer a way out of the deal due to performance and commercial metrics not being met as a result of not only the reputational fallout but Man City not being either in Europe or the PL and getting the international exposure that comes with it?

Same question applies if they're forced to rid themselves of key players which are the face of the brand and as such the club becomes even less marketable? How do they go about seeking new commercial partners who likely won't want to touch them with a bargepole?

Even if they bounce back to the PL immediately at the first time of asking post relegation, which is highly probable, they won't be able to generate anywhere near revenues they receive now - namely due to no Europe. Ticketing will still be down as a significant proportion of what they generate is through their ability of selling hospitality and corporate packages, commercial revenue will still be down, their wage bill will likely still be high.

Exactly you've just proved my point even further - there's potential that they could be stuck with some players whose wages are far above than what probably a couple of clubs (not including Saudi) could come close to matching, and as such potentially have to loan them out and cover a significant proportion of their contracts, what then?

Haaland isn't on £500k a week, that's his reported basic wage. It's thought that his actual weekly wage inclusive of bonuses is closer to £900k. Not to mention he has 8 years left on a 10 year contract.

 

[gruffskyblue]

Surely, if it’s a huge point deduction in the hundreds, could they not give them an initial massive deduction this season (depending on the appeal timeline), to send them down. Then, whenever they pop their head above the PL parapet again they get hit with a 30 point deduction for the next 5 seasons. Would that not be more fitting? Either that, or expulsion straight the League Two. They seem the only fair options.

 

[Grendel]

This is a pretty good summary of why they would be in deep trouble

How a mass Man City player exodus would warp the transfer market

If Manchester City are punished by being relegated from the Premier League, group of players worth more than £1 billion in transfer fees would suddenly become available.

www.espn.co.uk

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

That's the easy part

Average points deduction for guilty charge is 4 points, and this is with helping the enquiry. A 456 point deduction wouldn't be sufficient. It would only lead to the Championship. That's why I see it as a big enough points deduction for relegation plus a transfer ban for 3 to 5 years. The transfer ban would hit them hard. Most players would go out of contract in this time and would be free to leave.

And if the counted wage bill is really over £400m they would be in real financial trouble. That would be more than their income even if not a single sponsor left. Their share of the TV rights was about £277m.

Then you have what must be about £200m each year in amortised transfer fees. They could sell players, but the amount carried over would be minus the amortised amount still left. Even then they could only spend a total of 85% of the total figure.

Their best way out would be to sell from their academy. All expenses are not counted but transfer fees would go straight into the income pot. But considering with keeping all the sponsors they would need to cover about £200m. Then with the 85% limit there's another £60m on top of this. They could only count 85% of the money received from their transfer fees, so would have to raise £300m from their sales. So just selling academy players wouldn't be easy to make the money.

On the other side they can overspend by £15m in the Championship and their TV rights should about double this. But that only raises about 10% of what they need.

And even better is everyone would know that they're desperate for money and desperate to sell so won't be able to hold out for big fees.

So yes we would find out very quickly what they count as wages in the Championship. It would either be armageddon or just having to sell a couple of players. I know the rules of UEFA were shown as evidence, but the Championship rules are totally different.

Here's the evidence.

Financial Regulation

The Official home of the English Football League

www.efl.com

A Club's Squad Costs include all player wages and other forms of player remuneration, such as salary, bonuses, image rights payments, pension contributions, benefits in kind and other employment-related costs. It also includes the wages and associated costs of the first-team manager. It does not include the wages and associated costs of other coaching staff.

 

[Lamps]

Surely, if it’s a huge point deduction in the hundreds, could they not give them an initial massive deduction this season (depending on the appeal timeline), to send them down. Then, whenever they pop their head above the PL parapet again they get hit with a 30 point deduction for the next 5 seasons. Would that not be more fitting? Either that, or expulsion straight the League Two. They seem the only fair options.

Of course that sounds much better, but the Saudis would have it straight in court. It's already cost the PL over £100m in legal fees.

Could also see the same happening if they ended up in L2. Not only that but it's a bit unfair on the clubs trying to get promotion with them.

That's why I can't see anything but a big points deduction and then a transfer ban over 3 years or longer. The transfer ban would hit them the hardest. Players would leave/retire and they wouldn't be able to replace them. It's the one way of weakening their squad that would stand up in the court of law.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

There's other things to take off like agents fees. The latest number was £38m. Then you.need to add the Maresca wage. Basic is about £12m. There's about £50m.

They have a lot of signings still in the system. They don't buy cheap players.

Guardiola's last package with City while he was manager was reportedly worth up to £25m. Basic around £20m. Once again, do you see the issue with using what will be outdated accounts to formulate your ridiculous argument? Funnily enough expenses and revenue fluctuates year on year.

As per their last set of accounts they were also still owed £95m in owed transfer instalments for players sold. You bizarrely make out that they're only spending on players and have nothing coming in the other way.

 

[Grendel]

So work it out if you're such an expert.

There's £35m left over if the wage bill is £400m as you say. That £450m has a big hole to go into.

The major frustration with you is you don’t acknowledge factual documented evidence regarding the wage bill and your apparent inability to understand basic accounting information

 

[dadgad]

Pretty obvious that Guardiola knew that this was going to happen.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

The major frustration with you is you don’t acknowledge factual documented evidence regarding the wage bill and your apparent inability to understand basic accounting information

Careful, he'll randomly start throwing SCR percentages at you.

 

[Hybridtheory]

That's the easy part

Average points deduction for guilty charge is 4 points, and this is with helping the enquiry. A 456 point deduction wouldn't be sufficient. It would only lead to the Championship. That's why I see it as a big enough points deduction for relegation plus a transfer ban for 3 to 5 years. The transfer ban would hit them hard. Most players would go out of contract in this time and would be free to leave.

And if the counted wage bill is really over £400m they would be in real financial trouble. That would be more than their income even if not a single sponsor left. Their share of the TV rights was about £277m.

Then you have what must be about £200m each year in amortised transfer fees. They could sell players, but the amount carried over would be minus the amortised amount still left. Even then they could only spend a total of 85% of the total figure.

Their best way out would be to sell from their academy. All expenses are not counted but transfer fees would go straight into the income pot. But considering with keeping all the sponsors they would need to cover about £200m. Then with the 85% limit there's another £60m on top of this. They could only count 85% of the money received from their transfer fees, so would have to raise £300m from their sales. So just selling academy players wouldn't be easy to make the money.

On the other side they can overspend by £15m in the Championship and their TV rights should about double this. But that only raises about 10% of what they need.

And even better is everyone would know that they're desperate for money and desperate to sell so won't be able to hold out for big fees.

So yes we would find out very quickly what they count as wages in the Championship. It would either be armageddon or just having to sell a couple of players. I know the rules of UEFA were shown as evidence, but the Championship rules are totally different.

Aslong as they come up first go it doesn’t matter financially what they do in the champ as they will be out of reach from the efl Punishment wise until they are back there again

 

[wingy]

Pretty obvious that Guardiola knew that this was going to happen.

Probably been waiting for about 4yrs for the axe to drop.

 

[stupot07]

Man City charges scandal shines light on Man Utd finances

Manchester City's owners have been found guilty of injecting money into the club. At Manchester United, fans are frustrated at how much has been taken out.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Legia Sky Blue]

Of course that sounds much better, but the Saudis would have it straight in court. It's already cost the PL over £100m in legal fees.

Could also see the same happening if they ended up in L2. Not only that but it's a bit unfair on the clubs trying to get promotion with them.

That's why I can't see anything but a big points deduction and then a transfer ban over 3 years or longer. The transfer ban would hit them the hardest. Players would leave/retire and they wouldn't be able to replace them. It's the one way of weakening their squad that would stand up in the court of law.

Why would the Saudis want to go to Court?

 

[long way home]

I know where id put them bananas, entitled tourist fans matching the arrogance of the tourist owners...

I don't like Liverpool but hope they smash these cheating twats today.

 

[Skybluedogwood]

I don't like Liverpool but hope they smash these cheating twats today.

I prefer cheats to hooligans that cost us a place in the Cup Winners Cup but just bleat on about being victims. It’s a low bar!

 

[David O'Day]

They aren't a new team though are they? They aren't going into administration and reforming under a new name.
I'll take a charity bet with anyone that Man City don't drop below the Championship at the start of next season.

If they are expelled from the PL they will count as a new team

those are the rules buddy

 

[shepardo01]

Get them out, get the points off - either way get it done!

 

[Hybridtheory]

If they are expelled from the PL they will count as a new team

those are the rules buddy

They aren't getting expelled worst will happen is a big old points deduction

 

[Hybridtheory]

I know where id put them bananas, entitled tourist fans matching the arrogance of the tourist owners...

I don't like Liverpool but hope they smash these cheating twats today.

Tbf the away travel are probably the loyal lot plus the youngsters and the bananas are a throwback to the late 80's

 

[David O'Day]

They aren't getting expelled worst will happen is a big old points deduction

did I say they will get expelled?

No, the conversation was what would happen if they did get expelled.

 

[covcity4life]

This result prob work against them lol. Make the punishment even tougher cos they laughing their heads off

 

[wingy]

This result prob work against them lol. Make the punishment even tougher cos they laughing their heads off

I didn't expect them to be laughing when they visit the CBS.

 

[Skybluedogwood]

The investigation really has screwed up with the timing on this. Hard to see how they can dish out anything now which is fair on all teams. Unless they can effectively declare all past and future results as null and void, even if they announced a points deduction guaranteed to relegate them, it’s a stretch to think that won’t adversely impact on future fixtures and potentially what happens in January if decided before then. Clearly we’d like them relegated, but also need them to be motivated to take points off our competition who are yet to play them. Noting of course many lawyers are suggesting this can and will somehow rumble on beyond the end of the season, assuming of course a “deal” is not done which would presumably only happen if it was a huge fine but leave them in the Prem which their owners might accept. Crazy times …

 

[Hybridtheory]

did I say they will get expelled?

No, the conversation was what would happen if they did get expelled.

Well they aren't so a bit pointless really imo

 

[wingy]

The investigation really has screwed up with the timing on this. Hard to see how they can dish out anything now which is fair on all teams. Unless they can effectively declare all past and future results as null and void, even if they announced a points deduction guaranteed to relegate them, it’s a stretch to think that won’t adversely impact on future fixtures and potentially what happens in January if decided before then. Clearly we’d like them relegated, but also need them to be motivated to take points off our competition who are yet to play them. Noting of course many lawyers are suggesting this can and will somehow rumble on beyond the end of the season, assuming of course a “deal” is not done which would presumably only happen if it was a huge fine but leave them in the Prem which their owners might accept. Crazy times …

Integrity out of the window, but integrity bought it about, huge monetary fine plus some other form points penalty that keeps the season alive?