Grendel
Well-Known Member
Yes - traditional union ideology opposes wholesale migration for obvious reasons
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Yes - traditional union ideology opposes wholesale migration for obvious reasons
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Is that what he supports?
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Tight regulation of the labour market pushes up wages.
To use an example of this, why did HGV driver wages spike during COVID? There was a shortage of workers and businesses need to compete for labour. This is a historical trend that has been tracked from the Roman Republic/Empire to the Black Death and to modern day.
The complete takeover of centre-left parties by metropolitan graduates who believe low income foreign workers can be ‘allies’ pretty much sums up why the right has cannibalised traditional working class bases.
The modern welfare state and mass trade unionism is incompatible with mass migration. If you’re from a low income country, why not do poorly paid work in the UK, get ILR after 5 years and be eligible for benefits?
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Well, @Sky Blue Pete thinks anyone who considers voters wanting to reduce immigration as being mislead. Correct me if I’m wrong but that’s how understand your sentiments.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I don't remember him saying that and more broadly I haven't seen anyone here arguing for 'let everyone in' immigration.
I'm not being funny but I genuinely can't parse the second sentence.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I guess the irony is that Pete constantly babbles on about Nigel, Tommy and Richard or whoever but the irony is back when Unions were at the strongest the liked of Dereck, Jack, Hugh and Anthony (call me Tony) sang from the same hymn sheet.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
I’m
I remember bullet pointing areas where immigration directly influences the cost of living and instead of responding, you reacted with '
'. That is fine but this what the political right is picking up on and the political left is not and they're being punished for it outside of the urban middle-classes.
No, that's the thing. You and others consistently say "no one wants 'open borders'" but baulk at any policies designed to restrict immigration, ask 'what would you restrict?' or dismiss it as a secondary issue altogether.
I remember bullet pointing areas where immigration directly influences the cost of living and instead of responding, you reacted with '
'. That is fine but this what the political right is picking up on and the political left is not and they're being punished for it outside of the urban middle-classes.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Ultimately unions aren't perfect, no argument there. I got funny looks for suggesting that perhaps a group trip to Gaza wasn't the best use of members' subscription fees more than once.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I’m
No, that's the thing. You and others consistently say "no one wants 'open borders'" but baulk at any policies designed to restrict immigration, ask 'what would you restrict?' or dismiss it as a secondary issue altogether.
I remember bullet pointing areas where immigration directly influences the cost of living and instead of responding, you reacted with '
The last real socialist leader of the Labour Party I would say was Michael Foot. He was great friends with Enoch Powell and agreed totally with his stance on the EEC as it was then and migration.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
There’s a lot to unpack there
Tony Blair did a lot of good when in power. Huge investment in education and the nhs including lots of modernisation. Think his thinking became messianic and that hasn’t changed and his decision to get involved in the Iraq war misusing intelligence was disastrous and criminal
I don’t think we should be bringing in migrants in the current numbers to do lower paid work in the caring profession. I think the initial freedom of movement within the eu was working to some extent and despite Brexit promising otherwise once on that trajectory it isn’t a surprise that we find ourselves in a worse position outside of that European Union than we would have been inside. Who is to blame for that is an interesting question
Farage and tice are one trick ponies. They’re not interested in actual answers to anything. They want to show us who is to blame for our ills and make us fear them. They pretend there are easy answers when they’re just aren’t but as human beings we’ll fall for that every time history is clear
Tony Blair did a lot of good when in power. Huge investment in education and the nhs including lots of modernisation. Think his thinking became messianic and that hasn’t changed and his decision to get involved in the Iraq war misusing intelligence was disastrous and criminal
I don’t think we should be bringing in migrants in the current numbers to do lower paid work in the caring profession. I think the initial freedom of movement within the eu was working to some extent and despite Brexit promising otherwise once on that trajectory it isn’t a surprise that we find ourselves in a worse position outside of that European Union than we would have been inside. Who is to blame for that is an interesting question
Farage and tice are one trick ponies. They’re not interested in actual answers to anything. They want to show us who is to blame for our ills and make us fear them. They pretend there are easy answers when they’re just aren’t but as human beings we’ll fall for that every time history is clear
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
What do you mean I can’t understand sorry
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I wasn't referring to Anthony Charles Lynton Blair for reference. I don't think that dribbling liberal would have really found much in common with Lord Anthony Wedgewood Benn - other than they liked to be called Tony. The latter was a political giant - the former a dribbling charlatan.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I baulk at the smearing of whole nationalities and demographics yes. But I have been consistent in saying that reliance on foreign labour is bad for the country. All along I have also pointed to Scandinavian countries as the model for how I'd like us to do things in this country, which have struck a balance between being business friendly while also respecting people's work life balance and providing hands up to people through social programs.I’m
No, that's the thing. You and others consistently say "no one wants 'open borders'" but baulk at any policies designed to restrict immigration, ask 'what would you restrict?' or dismiss it as a secondary issue altogether.
I remember bullet pointing areas where immigration directly influences the cost of living and instead of responding, you reacted with '
Questions about what you want the route to this to look like are fair, because we can't click our fingers and make it happen in an instant.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
How many union leaders have come through the ranks as opposed to being professional activists?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The liked of Robinson, Scanlon, Gatskill and Benn opposed the EEC so would certainly have found freedom of movement abhorrent
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Somebody "coming through the ranks" is a professional activist. How many do you think have not "come through the ranks"?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The people who rise to the top of teachers' unions more often than not began as classroom teachers. The union I was a rep for was quite keen to progress me and other 'young' reps up the ladder before I left the profession.
The biggest problem in my experience was some people mixing up what the union is (in my view) there for with wider left wing activism. The feedback I consistently got from my colleagues and the conclusion I came to as well is that unions should not be spending money on anything other than trying to better things for their members. Jaunts to Calais, Gaza and anti nuclear power demonstrations are nowhere near that.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Democracy in action!
Teachers’ union elects former FBU general secretary on turnout below 5%
Former leader of Fire Brigades Union secured 5,249 votes against Neil Butler after legal challenge to executive’s earlier decision
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
NASUWT has been a mess for a long time. That Jonathan Gullis was once a rep for them should say everything.Democracy in action!
Teachers’ union elects former FBU general secretary on turnout below 5%
Former leader of Fire Brigades Union secured 5,249 votes against Neil Butler after legal challenge to executive’s earlier decisionwww.theguardian.com
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Poorly worded question. How many leaders have actually worked as teachers, firefighters, doctors (and so on) who lead these unions rather than just getting a job at a union and rising through the ranks there.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
In the teaching union? You actually were in the negotiations directly with the government?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
If you look through the history of the NEU/NUT, most of the leaders had worked as classroom teachers. The current NEU secretary had taught in both primary and secondary.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
So you were not actually in negotiations with the employer at all then
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
You tell me, you're the one claiming that they haven't
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
I asking a genuine question…
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Negotiations on pay policy yes, negotiations with who ultimately provides the money no.
SBAndy
Well-Known Member
I’m
No, that's the thing. You and others consistently say "no one wants 'open borders'" but baulk at any policies designed to restrict immigration, ask 'what would you restrict?' or dismiss it as a secondary issue altogether.
I remember bullet pointing areas where immigration directly influences the cost of living and instead of responding, you reacted with '
Clearly you’re interpreting things how you want to interpret them. Maybe it’s a communication issue.
Can’t speak for others, but regarding the points you’ve mentioned:
1. “what would you restrict?” - I think it’s more pertinent to recognise the sectors that are hugely overexposed on foreign labour, like the care sector. You’ve called out loopholes that are being exploited in this particular setting but if you shut the doors, or at least heavily restrict, then all of a sudden that sector collapses. How do you overcome something like that unless you taper it at the very least? Or do you just let the sector go to the wall because it’s pay and conditions are shit?
2. Dismissing as a secondary issue - personally, I’m kind of in this boat. I think if something was done about general affordability then the fact that immigration is ‘top of the charts’ starts to disappear anyway. People are disillusioned with the cost of living - as far as I’m aware my energy bills don’t go up because of immigration. Petrol prices don’t go up because of immigration. You could argue that food prices have gone up due to a lack of immigration! I accept this is only half of the equation, and if we earned more then it wouldn’t matter; that’s (I think) the divergence in our points of view. I’ve seen immigration topping the charts before, you correctly call out not enough being done in the last 20 years or so, yet it has also had periods where it’s not high up the list of priorities.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
This is close to where I am on immigration; I will readily admit it hasn't negatively impacted on me, or at least I don't perceive that it has. Communities across the country were abandoned from the 1980s onwards and left to fend for themselves, the right and far right saw their opportunity and pointed to the immigrant bogeyman as the reason why things had got worse. A visible scapegoat with a quick fix solution.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I, and I'm sure many like me, would much prefer it if the jobs were taken by local people.I’m
No, that's the thing. You and others consistently say "no one wants 'open borders'" but baulk at any policies designed to restrict immigration, ask 'what would you restrict?' or dismiss it as a secondary issue altogether.
I remember bullet pointing areas where immigration directly influences the cost of living and instead of responding, you reacted with '
As you pointed out with HGV drivers and the supply/demand during covid, we've got a HUGE undersupply in the care sector, so wages should be going up to reflect this, correct? Wages go up, more people are willing to do the job, supply and demand even out.
Only that's where we reach the problem isn't it? Because increasing those wages will require large increases in spending, and who's paying for that? Talk about increasing tax? "We're already taxed too much!" Tax the wealthy? "They just leave and you end up receiving less tax!" Borrow more? "We have to balance the books!" Print more money? "You'll devalue the currency!"
So ultimately nothing happens and we can't afford to pay those extra wages to get locals to do it. But those positions still urgently need to be filled, and then the only short-term option left is to bring in workers from abroad who will work for low money. Which itself has huge consequences in the short, medium and long term with regards housing, public services, pensions and welfare etc.
The left are suggesting ways to reduce the need for foreign workers by suggesting a more equal sharing of the pot to enable the higher wages to get locals to take the jobs instead. It's the right that are baulking at policies that would restrict immigration by not requiring so many of them needing to come here to work.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
It has been pretty quiet on Iran to be honest, but now we are starting to see some comments emerge, let's hope they aren't all as batshit as this!
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
One of my best mates is Iranian and says he hasn't heard from any of his family for the past week. Reckons it will probably end in regime change.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
And that’s linked with what I said in what way?
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
What's going on over there looks horrible by all accounts. Lots of people being killed. The whole history of that country is very interesting and I don't think we learn about that enough probably.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Some of his family were nearly killed in those bombings Trump/Israel ordered last year, now he doesn’t even know if they’re alive. It’s pretty terrifying.
As I said, he feels pretty certain it will end with regime change.