Do you want to discuss boring politics? (29 Viewers)

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The scramble was pre-Brexit...

The 'and related workers' part is important because this includes the private sector. You're presenting the 50k as if it is part of the 120k growth, it's not. A few examples of department increases post-Brexit:
- Ofgem, 165% increase in headcount (1.4k)
- Office of Qualifications and Examinations Regulation, 75% increase
- Housing, Communities and Local Government, 60% increase (1.8k)
- Home Office, 51% (17k)
- Scottish Government, 42% increase (8.2k)
- National Crime Agency, 37% (1.6)
- Justice department, 28% (21k)
- Health and Social Care, 32% (2.6k)
- Work and Pensions, 16% (13k)

That's already over half the increase in the civil service and this list isn't exhaustive. By contrast, HMRC's headcount was only up 2% (1.6k) and the Department for Business and Trade was down by 25% (-3k). Two of the most important departments for customs "Brexit" matters. In fairness, there are increases in statistics offices, the foreign office and the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. The latter will be driven by Brexit and Net Zero policies combined.

The public sector growth is up year on year, is that still because of Brexit?

It's also worth noting that there is also an increased amount of job-sharing going on now, with people being paid pro-rata. Due to other commitments such as children, being a carer or just taking on less hours for health reasons or winding down as people prepare for retirement. Many roles are also PT.

So while you might see an increase in the numbers of people, in terms of salary it's not much different. There are of course other costs etc. involved with having more workers but it doesn't necessarily equate to FT employees.

 

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Nadhim Zahawi joining Reform, another stellar recruit

I know! Can you believe I'm in the same party as this grifting wanker!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

At this point, you’ve got to consider the possibility it’s deliberate…

A history graduate being pulled up on his typos by a scientist...

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

A history graduate being pulled up on his typos by a scientist...

MA now though! Science graduates at my uni had a reasonable amounts of essays to do. The closest I get to essay writing nowadays is on here!

Even then, I type quite quick, have got into poor habits and autocorrect saves me from complete gibberish at times.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It’s my favourite Tarantino film, Christoph Walz is brilliant.

Not what I asked though sadly.

 

[wingy]

MA now though! Science graduates at my uni had a reasonable amounts of essays to do. The closest I get to essay writing nowadays is on here!

Even then, I type quite quick, have got into poor habits and autocorrect saves me from complete gibberish at times.

The reliance on aids like these are corrupting in the end.

 

[Captain Dart]

There's no problem there but that's not going to do anything to help the issues I mentioned or the article references.

The system grinds to a halt when care is needed over and above what can be provided at home by the family. Whether its at the lower end, with occasion visits by carers to the home, or the higher end, with people needing round the clock specialised treatment, the same problem remains. There is no capacity so people don't get discharged from hospital.

View attachment dr-appoint.mp4

 

[chiefdave]

View attachment 48268

There's not a single bit that isn't true in that.

Mate of mine Mrs is a GP, they moved to Sweden a couple of years back as she was offered far better pay and conditions to work there. Said the difference is stark. She's encouraged to get to know her patients and for each appointment to take as long as needed to cover anything and everything the patient wants to discuss. An that lasts less than 20 minutes is considered unusual at the practice she now works at.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

There's not a single bit that isn't true in that.

Mate of mine Mrs is a GP, they moved to Sweden a couple of years back as she was offered far better pay and conditions to work there. Said the difference is stark. She's encouraged to get to know her patients and for each appointment to take as long as needed to cover anything and everything the patient wants to discuss. An that lasts less than 20 minutes is considered unusual at the practice she now works at.

There's good reasons why the Scandinavian countries are the happiest on the planet, and some or a lot of these would be brushed off as 'hard left' in this country.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

There's good reasons why the Scandinavian countries are the happiest on the planet, and some or a lot of these would be brushed off as 'hard left' in this country.

Sweden has one of the highest populations of billionaires per capita in the world and Scandanavian countries are culturally homogenous. These are inconvenient truths to those on the left. If you want to maximise public spending, you need an environment that attracts top rate tax payers to reside in the country and is incompatible with mass migration. Something Sweden has recognised and is rowing back on significantly.

This government is taking measures that encourages capital flight as well as simultaneously attracting low wage migration and in doing so, impoverishes us all.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

There's good reasons why the Scandinavian countries are the happiest on the planet, and some or a lot of these would be brushed off as 'hard left' in this country.

The reality is the countries used to be a lot better. It was a different world there 15-20 years ago. Depends where you go now really.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Sweden has one of the highest populations of billionaires per capita in the world and Scandanavian countries are culturally homogenous. These are inconvenient truths to those on the left. If you want to maximise public spending, you need an environment that attracts top rate tax payers to reside in the country and is incompatible with mass migration. Something Sweden has recognised and is rowing back on significantly.

This government is taking measures that encourages capital flight as well as simultaneously attracting low wage migration and in doing so, impoverishes us all.

I keep telling you...I'm not an open door immigration supporting socialist. These are also countries with very high trade union membership which negates the need for minimum wage laws and the undercutting of people's salaries.

The reality is the countries used to be a lot better. It was a different world there 15-20 years ago. Depends where you go now really.

Maybe you're right, I've never been. Though they keep ranking near the top for happiness so are still getting the balance right; the world overall has changed for the worse so perhaps that's why.

 

[rob9872]

Sweden has one of the highest populations of billionaires per capita in the world and Scandanavian countries are culturally homogenous. These are inconvenient truths to those on the left. If you want to maximise public spending, you need an environment that attracts top rate tax payers to reside in the country and is incompatible with mass migration. Something Sweden has recognised and is rowing back on significantly.

This government is taking measures that encourages capital flight as well as simultaneously attracting low wage migration and in doing so, impoverishes us all.

Got to look at the positives.

While everything is great, people keep coming. When it's finally all gone to shit, we're broke, have no NHS, no freedom and are looking like a third world country, no fucker will want to come and live here.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Got to look at the positives.

While everything is great, people keep coming. When it's finally all gone to shit, we're broke, have no NHS, no freedom and are looking like a third world country, no fucker will want to come and live here.

We'll get our own back and move to Turkey to start opening curiously empty fish and chip shops.

 

[rob9872]

We'll get our own back and move to Turkey to start opening curiously empty fish and chip shops.

5 in a row, all empty.

 

[Grendel]

I think its a fairly safe bet certain people would find something to whine about wherever they lived.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I keep telling you...I'm not an open door immigration supporting socialist. These are also countries with very high trade union membership which negates the need for minimum wage laws and the undercutting of people's salaries.

Maybe you're right, I've never been. Though they keep ranking near the top for happiness so are still getting the balance right; the world overall has changed for the worse so perhaps that's why.

No, my response was addressing a wider audience as well.

As discussed previously, the legacy of Thatcher on industrial relations is terrible. To generalise, trade unions and employers are adversarial and interactions are zero-sum. In Germany, for example, trade unions sit on the boards of big companies and labour relations are much more cooperative.

Looking at the railways and TfL, trade unions and being intransigent is slowly pushing themselves into extinction. The calls for driverless trains will only grow.

 

[Grendel]

No, my response was addressing a wider audience as well.

As discussed previously, the legacy of Thatcher on industrial relations is terrible. To generalise, trade unions and employers are adversarial and interactions are zero-sum. In Germany, for example, trade unions sit on the boards of big companies and labour relations are much more cooperative.

Looking at the railways and TfL, trade unions and being intransigent is slowly pushing themselves into extinction. The calls for driverless trains will only grow.

The unions relations with the 70’s Labour government were worse and finished Labour off as a serious political party until it reinvented itself

 

[SBAndy]

No, my response was addressing a wider audience as well.

As discussed previously, the legacy of Thatcher on industrial relations is terrible. To generalise, trade unions and employers are adversarial and interactions are zero-sum. In Germany, for example, trade unions sit on the boards of big companies and labour relations are much more cooperative.

Looking at the railways and TfL, trade unions and being intransigent is slowly pushing themselves into extinction. The calls for driverless trains will only grow.

I’m going to speak in generalistic (and probably incorrect!) terms here, but my issue with unions is that a lot of the time it seems they are trying to preserve the status quo. Take that driverless trains example, it’ll happen - there’s no reason for it not to in the long run - but the union whose members comprise train drivers are (understandably) going to push back on that. We need proper workforce planning whereby a viable path to alternative employment is found - unlike the closure of the mines in time gone by. That requires a bit of effort and compromise at both ends, neither of which seems to want to give an inch a lot of the time.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The unions relations with the 70’s Labour government were worse and finished Labour off as a serious political party until it reinvented itself

The unions needed to be brought to heel because they were militant and hugely disruptive. I just think that if unions had a stake in the various businesses their members work for, perhaps industrial relations would be less adversarial.

That said, in Germany they have a lot more temp jobs than we do and German companies have a reputation for being ruthless to their temps. This is despite having stronger employment laws i.e. the Employment Rights Bill Rayner wants to introduce.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I’m going to speak in generalistic (and probably incorrect!) terms here, but my issue with unions is that a lot of the time it seems they are trying to preserve the status quo. Take that driverless trains example, it’ll happen - there’s no reason for it not to in the long run - but the union whose members comprise train drivers are (understandably) going to push back on that. We need proper workforce planning whereby a viable path to alternative employment is found - unlike the closure of the mines in time gone by. That requires a bit of effort and compromise at both ends, neither of which seems to want to give an inch a lot of the time.

That's a fair generalisation. Unions are there for their members so they will push for higher wages and so on without care if the business goes under and the whole house of cards collapses. Trade unions don't create wealth and do not innovate. As you say, they fight for the status quo and resist necessary changes at times. It's all horribly ironic if all their members become jobless.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The unions needed to be brought to heel because they were militant and hugely disruptive. I just think that if unions had a stake in the various businesses their members work for, perhaps industrial relations would be less adversarial.

That said, in Germany they have a lot more temp jobs than we do and German companies have a reputation for being ruthless to their temps. This is despite having stronger employment laws i.e. the Employment Rights Bill Rayner wants to introduce.

We deliberately make it very hard for workers to obtain collective bargaining rights in this country, or simply to even start organising in a given workplace. If you then manage that, industrial action can only be obtained by postal ballots (which we do not insist on for any other kind of vote in this country). The NMW was made necessary because union membership fell below a critical mass you need for collective bargaining to keep wages at a decent level.

The German car industry is very heavily unionised still and it's an industry which continues to perform strongly.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The unions needed to be brought to heel because they were militant and hugely disruptive. I just think that if unions had a stake in the various businesses their members work for, perhaps industrial relations would be less adversarial.

That said, in Germany they have a lot more temp jobs than we do and German companies have a reputation for being ruthless to their temps. This is despite having stronger employment laws i.e. the Employment Rights Bill Rayner wants to introduce.

Nothing worth gaining ever came easy
We can forget without workers organising we’d still be working 7 days and week for poor money and probably be out of education at 12
The points made are valid though as I’m very proud of my union activism and representing and most of the time my role is identifying win win rather than lose lose which is what tends to be the outcome when people dig their heels in

 

[chiefdave]

Take that driverless trains example, it’ll happen - there’s no reason for it not to in the long run - but the union whose members comprise train drivers are (understandably) going to push back on that.

This is actually quite a good example of how the story we are presented with doesn't really match the reality. We've seen many claims in the media that striking rail workers are striking against 'modernisation'. Except modernisation has been accepted by unions, what hasn't been accepted is the lowering of safety standards.

One example of the 'modernisation' that the unions were against were changes to track inspection. We've been here before, changes similar to the proposals being made led to the Potters Bar derailment which killed 7 and injured 76. The results of the subsequent inquiry were to reverse those changes and bring everything back under the control on Network Rail. Why then are we proposing to go down the same route again in the name of 'modernisation'?

The driverless trains thing is very unlikely to happen in the UK at any point unless someone is going to invest tens of billions for upgrades.

Its been found unviable even for the London Underground which would be one of the easiest implementations we have in this country. Cost would be £7bn plus for no financial benefit. You'd also pretty much have to shut down the entire system to replace huge amounts of infrastructure.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Don’t know why grendel is laughing

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This is actually quite a good example of how the story we are presented with doesn't really match the reality. We've seen many claims in the media that striking rail workers are striking against 'modernisation'. Except modernisation has been accepted by unions, what hasn't been accepted is the lowering of safety standards.

One example of the 'modernisation' that the unions were against were changes to track inspection. We've been here before, changes similar to the proposals being made led to the Potters Bar derailment which killed 7 and injured 76. The results of the subsequent inquiry were to reverse those changes and bring everything back under the control on Network Rail. Why then are we proposing to go down the same route again in the name of 'modernisation'?

The driverless trains thing is very unlikely to happen in the UK at any point unless someone is going to invest tens of billions for upgrades.

Its been found unviable even for the London Underground which would be one of the easiest implementations we have in this country. Cost would be £7bn plus for no financial benefit. You'd also pretty much have to shut down the entire system to replace huge amounts of infrastructure.

Also as someone who has actually taken part in salary negotiations as a union rep, the idea that your goal is to rinse the employer to get wages as high as possible is a bit far from the truth. The employer shares their financial data with you in confidence, you look at that and see for yourself what is and is not a realistic negotiating position. Your goal is clearly not to send your own employer into oblivion.

When I first started out my colleagues joked about which colour paint I wanted the target on my back to be, after a few years of doing it SMT had a much healthier relationship with the staff body despite a period of that being during the national strikes. It does not need to be an adversarial relationship.

 

[Grendel]

Don’t know why grendel is laughing

The notion we now need unions to stop match girls from being killed from sulphur poisoning as they had to leave school to earn money

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The notion we now need unions to stop match girls from being killed from sulphur poisoning as they had to leave school to earn money

Phosphorus, get it right

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The notion we now need unions to stop match girls from being killed from sulphur poisoning as they had to leave school to earn money

Well you obviously struggle with comprehension

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The notion we now need unions to stop match girls from being killed from sulphur poisoning as they had to leave school to earn money

Have you seen the working rights of uber drivers and deliveroo and others like it and Amazon warehouses and dpd etc tell me that’s balanced between worker and employer and I’ll show you a liar

 

[Grendel]

Well you obviously struggle with comprehension

I really don't - unions have no place now in the areas you described.

We don't have those conditions now so its irrelevant

The funny thing is its the Unions that led to the Tories being in power for all of the 80's and the growth of Thatcherism

 

[Grendel]

Have you seen the working rights of uber drivers and deliveroo and others like it and Amazon warehouses and dpd etc tell me that’s balanced between worker and employer and I’ll show you a liar

Well I don't buy from Amazon as I have stated before. Do you?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Well I don't buy from Amazon as I have stated before. Do you?

Good for you
Yep

 

[Grendel]

Good for you
Yep

I genuinely also know someone who works for Uber Eats as a sideline and he says its great and he's making plenty of money - I have no idea how it works but he said he is efficient and how can I put this politely - most of the workers are Grade A retards and clueless

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Nothing worth gaining ever came easy
We can forget without workers organising we’d still be working 7 days and week for poor money and probably be out of education at 12
The points made are valid though as I’m very proud of my union activism and representing and most of the time my role is identifying win win rather than lose lose which is what tends to be the outcome when people dig their heels in

There’s a terrible irony here…

Proud of trade union activism yet continues to support mass migration of low income, unskilled workers from outside the EU/EEA.

The traditions of the trade union movement was hostile to low wage immigration because it undercuts their raison d’etre. Something the modern day trade union movement hasn’t cottoned on to yet.