Immigration and Asylum (6 Viewers)

[Mucca Mad Boys]

A child, an elderly person or a disabled person is also a net tax drain - why are they exempted from this workhouse community service you’re envisaging? If the argument is that they will pay tax in the future, or have paid tax in the past, why does the same exemption not apply to the vast numbers of migrants and UC claimants who are also past/prospective future taxpayers?

Children don’t get state handouts and pensioners qualify for state pension based on tax they’ve paid. As for severely disabled people who can’t work, they need state support. Not people with low level ADHD and Austin’s/Aspergers.

Why doesn’t it apply to migrants because the social contract is between British citizens and the British state? If a foreign national cannot sustain themselves, they should leave and if their circumstances change, reapply to enter the country. This is a v basic concept practiced globally. If I wanted to relocate to UAE, Australia and Thailand, do you think they’d be paying be benefits if I run out of money after 5 years?

 

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[Grendel]

As I say propels moral compass has been corrupted by migrants and rich grifters

My main mantra is there but for the grace of god go I. People just don’t give a shit

Mine hasn't - I have never agreed that people should be allowed benefits for a prolonged period

We have made it worse by dumping PIP payments on people who clearly do not need it but will claim - it should be scrapped

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Do i have too much empathy or am i just not suited to grown up politics. The idea of leaving people with nothing is crazy

Suicidal empathy, yes. When the welfare state was created, a v small % of people were out of work and it was heavily stigmatised.

Look, no reform means the comprehensive welfare state will fail. The warning signs are there.

 

[SBT]

Children don’t get state handouts and pensioners qualify for state pension based on tax they’ve paid. As for severely disabled people who can’t work, they need state support. Not people with low level ADHD and Austin’s/Aspergers.

Why doesn’t it apply to migrants because the social contract is between British citizens and the British state? If a foreign national cannot sustain themselves, they should leave and if their circumstances change, reapply to enter the country. This is a v basic concept practiced globally. If I wanted to relocate to UAE, Australia and Thailand, do you think they’d be paying be benefits if I run out of money after 5 years?

Children don’t get state handouts? I don’t recall getting a monthly invoice for my primary school education when I was 6, but ok.

If the UAE is your model for what a functioning society (and welfare state, and attitude to migration) should look like then that says it all.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

Suicidal empathy, yes. When the welfare state was created, a v small % of people were out of work and it was heavily stigmatised.

Look, no reform means the comprehensive welfare state will fail. The warning signs are there.

Suicidal empathy so be it.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

…Straw man arguments throughout here.

Actually, I’d support scrapping the triple lock pension and raising the state pension age and that would save a lot of money. In addition, I’d also reform public sector pensions because this is quickly becoming a large sum of money that isn’t actually funded properly by HMRC. All of these measures are unpopular and frankly, rather than go after pensioners who have paid into their pots their working lives, there are areas across the welfare state that need looking at.

Your point on maternity isn’t relevant because these people are employed and get SMP from their employer. Likewise for schools, they’re an investment to educate the next generations taxpayers. Besides, the education budget is separate to the welfare, it’s a complete misnomer.

The point about long-term sick/severely disabled, these numbers remain low %. No one is suggesting severely disabled people should get nothing. What’s actually driving up the costs of disability/long term sick is low level behavioural a mental health disorders. Frankly, a welfare state is unsustainable if 15-20% of your working age population is out of work. Around 15% of the population is in population when you count unemployment and long sickness benefits (excluded from unemployment stats).

With respect, on this issue it’s plainly obvious that you and others want to obfuscate and use straw man arguments rather than confronting fundamental drivers of the swelling welfare state. If you care about the welfare state, reform is badly needed before the whole thing implodes.

Inconvenient truths rather than straw man arguments. Someone who is unemployed but can prove that they're looking for work is as likely to be a future taxpayer as someone in primary or secondary school. A child gets their education paid for for 11-13 years, sometimes lunch and breakfast on top of that...it's a very big cost to the state for someone who isn't contributing in the here and now.

The pension is the biggest component of this spiralling welfare bill. That's happening because more of us are living for longer, while the birth rate is falling in part thanks to a raft of non-family friendly policies which disincentivise having children. You can kick every unemployed person on the street tomorrow and take all of their benefits away, that trend isn't going anywhere. The pension is the fundamental driver of the swelling welfare state, and there isn't a single government or political party I've seen entertain a serious conversation on what we do about it.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Mine hasn't - I have never agreed that people should be allowed benefits for a prolonged period

We have made it worse by dumping PIP payments on people who clearly do not need it but will claim - it should be scrapped

100% correct. I came from a low income background and know several people who have lived a life on benefits. Speaking anecdotally, there are plenty of people abusing PIP and over egging the extent of how their ADHD/ASD to claim it. This is immoral because we all know people with severe conditions out there who genuinely need support.

I could game the system and claim PIP, the moral choice is to not claim.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Children don’t get state handouts? I don’t recall getting a monthly invoice for my primary school education when I was 6, but ok.

If the UAE is your model for what a functioning society (and welfare state, and attitude to migration) should look like then that says it all.

You can have your turkey twizzlers and potato smiley faces little SBT, but I need you in at 9 am on Saturday to clean all the windows. If you're expecting an apple as well, the doors will need painting.

 

[Grendel]

You can have your turkey twizzlers and potato smiley faces little SBT, but I need you in at 9 am on Saturday to clean all the windows. If you're expecting an apple as well, the doors will need painting.

You of course had the luxury of Private Education and boy does it show

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I do not support child benefit payments either. They should be vouchers where there is proof the child is the recipient of the benefit

We live like kings on that £25 a week let me tell you.

What is £5k?

A year's worth of JSA payments.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You of course had the luxury of Private Education and boy does it show

Didn't you also put your children through private education? I did at least pay towards my own fees.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Inconvenient truths rather than straw man arguments. Someone who is unemployed but can prove that they're looking for work is as likely to be a future taxpayer as someone in primary or secondary school. A child gets their education paid for for 11-13 years, sometimes lunch and breakfast on top of that...it's a very big cost to the state for someone who isn't contributing in the here and now.

The pension is the biggest component of this spiralling welfare bill. That's happening because more of us are living for longer, while the birth rate is falling in part thanks to a raft of non-family friendly policies which disincentivise having children. You can kick every unemployed person on the street tomorrow and take all of their benefits away, that trend isn't going anywhere. The pension is the fundamental driver of the swelling welfare state, and there isn't a single government or political party I've seen entertain a serious conversation on what we do about it.

Inconvenient truths… ok, so because children, pensioners and the disabled are all ‘unproductive’ we can’t reform the welfare system to avoid record numbers of working age, able bodied people from working? No wonder the modern social-democrats, socialists and so on are toast.

What reforms would you make, if any?

The amount of people on UC that are in work/searching for work is around 2.5-2.7m people. The people who never have to work totals 4 million people. So yeah, let’s start looking at reforming this aspect of the welfare state as a ba

Children don’t get state handouts? I don’t recall getting a monthly invoice for my primary school education when I was 6, but ok.

If the UAE is your model for what a functioning society (and welfare state, and attitude to migration) should look like then that says it all.

Which comes out of the education budget and doesn’t get paid to children directly so it’s a moot point.

 

[SBT]

Which comes out of the education budget and doesn’t get paid to children directly so it’s a moot point.

So the 12 years of state-provided education that I received as a child at zero personal expense to myself doesn’t count as a state handout….because it comes out of the education budget? What are you even talking about at this point?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Inconvenient truths… ok, so because children, pensioners and the disabled are all ‘unproductive’ we can’t reform the welfare system to avoid record numbers of working age, able bodied people from working? No wonder the modern social-democrats, socialists and so on are toast.

What reforms would you make, if any?

The amount of people on UC that are in work/searching for work is around 2.5-2.7m people. The people who never have to work totals 4 million people. So yeah, let’s start looking at reforming this aspect of the welfare state as a ba

I've said above, rather than demonising unemployed people, make full time work more attractive. Start with the gig economy where employment rights are minimal and pay is dubious; give these workers the same rights as 'traditional' employees and at the same time eliminate things like Deliveroo drivers letting anyone use their account unchecked.

You keep ignoring that pensions are the biggest chunk of the welfare system and it's the one that politicians won't touch because of the senior vote. There's still this undercurrent in your posts that people aren't working because they can't be arsed. I can accept that applies to some people, but smearing everyone with the same brush is something I want to see some evidence for.

 

[Grendel]

So the 12 years of state-provided education that I received as a child at zero personal expense to myself doesn’t count as a state handout….because it comes out of the education budget? What are you even talking about at this point?

You are resorting to desperation - the budget is funded by taxpayers and the idea clearly is to create a productive society through education and an ethos of wanting to contribute to a future society

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

So the 12 years of state-provided education that I received as a child at zero personal expense to myself doesn’t count as a state handout….because it comes out of the education budget? What are you even talking about at this point?

This silly game of yours is embarrassing. Public services and welfare benefits are not the same thing.

 

[Grendel]

I've said above, rather than demonising unemployed people, make full time work more attractive. Start with the gig economy where employment rights are minimal and pay is dubious; give these workers the same rights as 'traditional' employees and at the same time eliminate things like Deliveroo drivers letting anyone use their account unchecked.

You keep ignoring that pensions are the biggest chunk of the welfare system and it's the one that politicians won't touch because of the senior vote. There's still this undercurrent in your posts that people aren't working because they can't be arsed. I can accept that applies to some people, but smearing everyone with the same brush is something I want to see some evidence for.

Are our pensions not some of the worst in Europe?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You are resorting to desperation - the budget is funded by taxpayers and the idea clearly is to create a productive society through education and an ethos of wanting to contribute to a future society

No wonder this conversation is going nowhere when the basic distinction between public service and state handout is being made.

I've said above, rather than demonising unemployed people, make full time work more attractive. Start with the gig economy where employment rights are minimal and pay is dubious; give these workers the same rights as 'traditional' employees and at the same time eliminate things like Deliveroo drivers letting anyone use their account unchecked.

You keep ignoring that pensions are the biggest chunk of the welfare system and it's the one that politicians won't touch because of the senior vote. There's still this undercurrent in your posts that people aren't working because they can't be arsed. I can accept that applies to some people, but smearing everyone with the same brush is something I want to see some evidence for.

I’ve addressed pension reform directly and I don’t think acknowledged anything I’ve said on that.

On a fundamental level, do you think there’s any areas in the welfare system that needs reforming? A simple yes or no will suffice.

@SBT @Sky Blue Pete @Ccfcisparks @chiefdave, the same question applies.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This silly game of yours is embarrassing. Public services and welfare benefits are not the same thing.

You said it was an investment by the state into prospective future tax payers. One could just as easily argue that unemplyoment benefit is an investment by the state into someone so that they eventually return to being a tax payer.

 

[Grendel]

You said it was an investment by the state into prospective future tax payers. One could just as easily argue that unemplyoment benefit is an investment by the state into someone so that they eventually return to being a tax payer.

That is a grade A for stupidity

 

[SBT]

This silly game of yours is embarrassing. Public services and welfare benefits are not the same thing.

So if I pay no tax but consume vast amounts of free public services, am I considered a productive member of society so long as I don’t also claim any welfare benefits?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Are our pensions not some of the worst in Europe?

If that is true and pensions still comprise the biggest chunk of the welfare budget, we're in bigger trouble than I thought.

 

[rob9872]

So the 12 years of state-provided education that I received as a child at zero personal expense to myself doesn’t count as a state handout….because it comes out of the education budget? What are you even talking about at this point?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I’ve addressed pension reform directly and I don’t think acknowledged anything I’ve said on that.

On a fundamental level, do you think there’s any areas in the welfare system that needs reforming? A simple yes or no will suffice.

@SBT @Sky Blue Pete @Ccfcisparks @chiefdave, the same question applies.

You aren't a political party the last time I checked, which was my point.

To answer your question...pensions need the most urgent look. If you want the number of people out of work to go down, then double down on making work pay. To use my own personal example, I'd be better off out of work than in full time education; I've said repeatedly that cannot be right and makes no logical sense.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

No wonder this conversation is going nowhere when the basic distinction between public service and state handout is being made.



I’ve addressed pension reform directly and I don’t think acknowledged anything I’ve said on that.

On a fundamental level, do you think there’s any areas in the welfare system that needs reforming? A simple yes or no will suffice.

@SBT @Sky Blue Pete @Ccfcisparks @chiefdave, the same question applies.

Yes of course there is. Will you agree theres a need for a wealth tax of some sort to be implemented?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That is a grade A for stupidity

Your idea of effectively forcing someone into homelessness and thereby probably never returning to work takes the cake there my friend.

 

[SBT]

You are resorting to desperation - the budget is funded by taxpayers and the idea clearly is to create a productive society through education and an ethos of wanting to contribute to a future society

Whether or not you believe it’s successful in its implementation, isn’t this what the (also taxpayer-funded) welfare system is set up for?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You said it was an investment by the state into prospective future tax payers. One could just as easily argue that unemplyoment benefit is an investment by the state into someone so that they eventually return to being a tax payer.

Nice idea in theory, the data suggests this isn’t happening and it’s a growing problem. Specifically, young people are claiming incapacity benefits at record levels.

So if I pay no tax but consume vast amounts of free public services, am I considered a productive member of society so long as I don’t also claim any welfare benefits?

If you’re paying no tax, you earn less than 13k and will invariably be on UC… so this line of question is misleading. To put answer directly, if you’re not paying tax, you’re not contributing.

People on UC of course are paying little to no tax and consuming public services, so again, it’s a double whammy because they’re receiving handouts and consuming service they’re not funding.

On a fundamental level, you are either ignorant or feigning ignorance that a comprehensive welfare state and good public service provisions is only viable if the tax base remains larger than the claimant base.

Yes of course there is. Will you agree theres a need for a wealth tax of some sort to be implemented?

You’re on the wind up!

You aren't a political party the last time I checked, which was my point.

To answer your question...pensions need the most urgent look. If you want the number of people out of work to go down, then double down on making work pay. To use my own personal example, I'd be better off out of work than in full time education; I've said repeatedly that cannot be right and makes no logical sense.

Why not do both? It’s terrible optics to go after pensioners whilst there are record numbers of people on various benefits and have no requirement to work. This is an issue that’s exploded out of nowhere post-COVID.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Suicidal empathy, yes. When the welfare state was created, a v small % of people were out of work and it was heavily stigmatised.

Look, no reform means the comprehensive welfare state will fail. The warning signs are there.

No reform does but saying kick all these people out and let none in does the same too and makes us look horrid

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

No wonder this conversation is going nowhere when the basic distinction between public service and state handout is being made.



I’ve addressed pension reform directly and I don’t think acknowledged anything I’ve said on that.

On a fundamental level, do you think there’s any areas in the welfare system that needs reforming? A simple yes or no will suffice.

@SBT @Sky Blue Pete @Ccfcisparks @chiefdave, the same question applies.

Many

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why not do both? It’s terrible optics to go after pensioners whilst there are record numbers of people on various benefits and have no requirement to work. This is an issue that’s exploded out of nowhere post-COVID.

I didn't say we shouldn't do both. It's been a long time since I was last on JSA but I had to prove I was applying for jobs, going for interviews and so on in order to keep receiving the payments.

What do you suggest people do if they live in parts of the country with limited opportunities? Kick them out onto the street Grendel style?

 

[SBT]

To put answer directly, if you’re not paying tax, you’re not contributing.

People on UC of course are paying little to no tax and consuming public services, so again, it’s a double whammy because they’re receiving handouts and consuming service they’re not funding.

A double whammy, you say? I guess there isn’t such a big difference between welfare payments and public services after all.

So this brings me back to my original question - why are children (who pay no tax and consume years worth of public services) exempted from your “unproductive” bracket of society? And if it’s because they might one day go on to pay tax, why doesn’t that same courtesy apply to migrants and UC claimants?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I didn't say we shouldn't do both. It's been a long time since I was last on JSA but I had to prove I was applying for jobs, going for interviews and so on in order to keep receiving the payments.

What do you suggest people do if they live in parts of the country with limited opportunities? Kick them out onto the street Grendel style?

Was this pre or post-COVID? I’m assuming pre and frankly the huge pressures on the welfare systems has been exacerbated by the lack of face to face meetings.

For anyone interested, check out Fraser Nelson:

Britain's benefits scandal | Fraser Nelson documentary

Website accompanying Ch4 documentary "Britain's Benefits Scandal" on the sickness benefits crisis, presented by Fraser Nelson

www.benefitstrap.com

Note: the long term claimants has gone up by 700k since the documentary which aired fairly recently.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

A double whammy, you say? I guess there isn’t such a big difference between welfare payments and public services after all.

So this brings me back to my original question - why are children (who pay no tax and consume years worth of public services) exempted from your “unproductive” bracket of society? And if it’s because they might one day go on to pay tax, why doesn’t that same courtesy apply to migrants and UC claimants?

Adults can support themselves, children can’t. They also don’t receive money directly from the government.

I can’t believe you thought that was a good question.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Was this pre or post-COVID? I’m assuming pre and frankly the huge pressures on the welfare systems has been exacerbated by the lack of face to face meetings.

For anyone interested, check out Fraser Nelson:

Britain's benefits scandal | Fraser Nelson documentary

Website accompanying Ch4 documentary "Britain's Benefits Scandal" on the sickness benefits crisis, presented by Fraser Nelson

www.benefitstrap.com

Note: the long term claimants has gone up by 700k since the documentary which aired fairly recently.

This was in 2016, so I can accept a lot of changes to the system have happened since then. I was still pretty sure though that you had to provide evidence of what you were doing to find work.

To reiterate though, the amount is not even £5k per year. Nobody can live in luxury off that.