Do you want to discuss boring politics? (147 Viewers)

[CCFCSteve]

The undervaluing of medical professionals on this forum is pretty crazy.

If we weren't rapidly becoming a fatter and unhealthier nation too maybe you could dismiss it.

If we keep getting fatter and unhealthier as a nation it won’t matter what we pay resident doctors, the nhs, in its current form, will be fucked

I mentioned the other day that it’s forecast that by 2036/37 1 in 11 workers will work for the NHS. Crazy numbers. We as a country need to sort our shit out, we can’t help the aging demographic but we can improve our collective health….won’t happen though

 

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[Nick]

Train drivers? Over 1k a week isn't enough?

I guess that's another question, whether their wages compare with doctors, firemen etc etc.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Not sure if mentioned on here but Jake berry has left Tories for Reform

 

[Grendel]

In this case the government. Personally I think we should offer strong wages and working conditions to attract and retain the best quality.

I’m sure on a matter as important as healthcare you agree.

Who actually establishes what strong wages are?

 

[Nick]

Who actually establishes what strong wages are?

And what happens when somebody decides the strong wage they were happy with last year needs to be 30% more the year after.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I'm asking how it's defined.

It's all well and good saying it over and over every time somebody wants to strike but define it.

You only have to see what the train driver union thing as bad working conditions. (The poor sods having to use a tablet)

Nah, it's saying it because we're struggling to retain doctors and we're relying on an increasing proportion of foreign labour to keep the health service going.

 

[Nick]

Nah, it's saying it because we're struggling to retain doctors and we're relying on an increasing proportion of foreign labour to keep the health service going.

So what are you defining as a strong wage and working condition in this instance?

 

[PVA]

Not sure if mentioned on here but Jake berry has left Tories for Reform

His wife was Boris Johnson's office manager.

No further comment.

 

[Lamps]

I guess that's another question, whether their wages compare with doctors, firemen etc etc.

Doctors take years of qualifying. Firemen on less than half the wage. Train drivers over 1k a week on average.

I was a member of Unite for nearly 30 years. The amount of years we went against their advice is unbelievable. I got to know people like Rayner. I don't trust them anymore. They're not for the general public but for themselves. Look at Rayner and the council house she bought then rented out. Said she lived in but didn't before selling.

 

[shmmeee]

Genuine question, at what point would some of you say "taking the piss now" with people demanding pay rises or striking?

Never. That’s entirely within their rights. When you have a single employer your options are limited and industrial action is one of the few forces that raises wages.

Why are you so bothered with what other people earn? Either they price themselves out of the market or they don’t.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So what are you defining as a strong wage and working condition in this instance?

I'm not a healthcare professional, but in teaching the working conditions are a far bigger issue than the pay. So there needs to be more done to cap class sizes, reduce administrative work, change the culture of unpaid overtime as an expectation etc etc. The point being that the quality of education children will ultimately also improve.

I was on close to £50k when I left teaching and it was because of those and other issues, not the money.

 

[shmmeee]

Doctors take years of qualifying. Firemen on less than half the wage. Train drivers over 1k a week on average.

I was a member of Unite for nearly 30 years. The amount of years we went against their advice is unbelievable. I got to know people like Rayner. I don't trust them anymore. They're not for the general public but for themselves. Look at Rayner and the council house she bought then rented out. Said she lived in but didn't before selling.

What a random thing to complain about. Pure coincidence there was a load of nothing stories about it I guess.

 

[Nick]

Never. That’s entirely within their rights. When you have a single employer your options are limited and industrial action is one of the few forces that raises wages.

Why are you so bothered with what other people earn? Either they price themselves out of the market or they don’t.

So no matter what they earn, it will never be enough.

Just like what they were happy with a couple of years ago is now 30% short.. then the next couple of years, then the next.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So no matter what they earn, it will never be enough.

To be clear, the happiest countries on the planet are also the most heavily unionised. They seem to manage just fine.

 

[shmmeee]

So no matter what they earn, it will never be enough.

How do you think wages are set? Do you think there’s some correct wage we’re all aiming for? You get what you can negotiate with the tools at your disposal.

Shelf stackers can’t strike because there’s twenty others willing to do the job for the same conditions. If the same is true of anyone else then they lose bargaining power, otherwise they have it. This is how wages are decided.

Public sector workers can’t negotiate with their employer and can’t leave for another so often the only tool they have is strikes. Do I want a world where workers have no tools to raise wages? Obviously not because people earning good wages is a good thing and not something to be jealous of. Ironically considering how you normally talk about anyone earning above the average as gods own people.

 

[Lamps]

What a random thing to complain about. Pure coincidence there was a load of nothing stories about it I guess.

Complain?

Do you think train drivers on over 1k a week get paid enough? They don't think so. The next lot of threatened strikes will be in about 6 months.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Complain?

Do you think train drivers on over 1k a week get paid enough? They don't think so. The next lot of threatened strikes will be in about 6 months.

They're not all employed by a single employer so your point as irrelevant really

 

[Nick]

How do you think wages are set? Do you think there’s some correct wage we’re all aiming for? You get what you can negotiate with the tools at your disposal.

Shelf stackers can’t strike because there’s twenty others willing to do the job for the same conditions. If the same is true of anyone else then they lose bargaining power, otherwise they have it. This is how wages are decided.

Public sector workers can’t negotiate with their employer and can’t leave for another so often the only tool they have is strikes. Do I want a world where workers have no tools to raise wages? Obviously not because people earning good wages is a good thing and not something to be jealous of. Ironically considering how you normally talk about anyone earning above the average as gods own people.

So again, you don't think there's a point where people can be taking the piss? They can demand 29% every couple of years else they go on strike?

What happens when the firemen want in on it, then police, etc?

It's not about being jealous to point this out or ask where does it stop.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Complain?

Do you think train drivers on over 1k a week get paid enough? They don't think so. The next lot of threatened strikes will be in about 6 months.

I doubt trains will still be driven by humans in the future in any case.

 

[fernandopartridge]

So again, you don't think there's a point where people can be taking the piss? They can demand 29% every couple of years else they go on strike?

What happens when the firemen want in on it, then police, etc?

It's not about being jealous to point this out or ask where does it stop.

You really are so ridiculously childish, why are you inventing a scenario to justify your anger?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So again, you don't think there's a point where people can be taking the piss? They can demand 29% every couple of years else they go on strike?

What happens when the firemen want in on it, then police, etc?

It's not about being jealous to point this out or ask where does it stop.

The point is that for a decade and a half we tried doing all of this on the cheap, freezing pay and gradually overseeing a decline in working conditions. Had we not had negligence on this for so long the overall cost would probably have been lower.

 

[Nick]

You really are so ridiculously childish, why are you inventing a scenario to justify your anger?

How is it inventing a scenario? You don't think people will jump on the bandwagon if they see others getting close to 60% rise in 5 years?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

How is it inventing a scenario? You don't think people will jump on the bandwagon if they see others getting close to 60% rise in 5 years?

Bloody firemen trying to live like kings

 

[Lamps]

They're not all employed by a single employer so your point as irrelevant really

Is it?

We need to have train services to be brought into something sustainable instead of giving millions to foreign companies that make an absolute fortune each year. Recently I tried to buy a train ticket from London to Edinburgh. They wanted nearly £150 to get me from Stansted to Edinburgh. Got a flight for less than £20. Can someone please explain why it costs many multiples to get the train other than flying?

 

[Lamps]

Bloody firemen trying to live like kings

On less than half of train drivers. I'm sorry but I see firefighters as more important than train drivers yet there's a massive gulf in pay.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Is it?

We need to have train services to be brought into something sustainable instead of giving millions to foreign companies that make an absolute fortune each year. Recently I tried to buy a train ticket from London to Edinburgh. They wanted nearly £150 to get me from Stansted to Edinburgh. Got a flight for less than £20. Can someone please explain why it costs many multiples to get the train other than flying?

Even Grendel agrees that rail should be nationalised in this country. When the house contrarian is agreeing with the common sense position it's time to pound the gavel

 

[Lamps]

I doubt trains will still be driven by humans in the future in any case.

And the sooner the better.

 

[chiefdave]

Just like what they were happy with a couple of years ago is now 30% short.. then the next couple of years, then the next.

Probably worth pointing out they weren't happy with what they got a couple of years ago.

What happened was a change of government in the midst of the longest running dispute in NHS history. There was a will on both sides to get a deal done. The reason the deal was only for 2 years is that it was an interim deal, the government offered a figure lower than that which the BMA was seeking which was accepted on the understanding that there would be be negotiations for the remainder of what the BMA call pay restoration.

Now 2 years on they have received a much lower offer than expected and the government is refusing to negotiate. Their only concession being vague promises around improvements to working conditions which they can't / won't specify.

Whether you think the demands of the BMA are justified or not I'm sure we'd all be pretty pissed off if we'd taken a lower offer on the promise it would be made up in a couple of years only for that to not materialise.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

On less than half of train drivers. I'm sorry but I see firefighters as more important than train drivers yet there's a massive gulf in pay.

I think it's important for both to be well paid. I wouldn't want an unqualified schmuck driving trains and I equally don't want people to be underpaid putting themselves in danger for the emergency services. Not sure who 'deserves' the higher wage.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Is it?

We need to have train services to be brought into something sustainable instead of giving millions to foreign companies that make an absolute fortune each year. Recently I tried to buy a train ticket from London to Edinburgh. They wanted nearly £150 to get me from Stansted to Edinburgh. Got a flight for less than £20. Can someone please explain why it costs many multiples to get the train other than flying?

What's this got to do with the point that train drivers are employed by separate companies?

 

[Lamps]

Even Grendel agrees that rail should be nationalised in this country. When the house contrarian is agreeing with the common sense position it's time to pound the gavel

They just can't see that they're pricing themselves out of a job. When it finally happens they will blame everyone but themselves.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

They just can't see that they're pricing themselves out of a job. When it finally happens they will blame everyone but themselves.

If I were being cynical, I'd say that privately the union can see what's on the horizon and is trying to get its members as much as it can before the inevitable. Though to reiterate, they should be well paid and they should have working conditions that don't ultimately put passengers at risk from incompetent or incapacitated drivers.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Just need to give everybody loads more money, simples.

Seems to be the mantra for executives and shareholders.

As you said "no matter what they earn, it will never be enough."

 

[Lamps]

I think it's important for both to be well paid. I wouldn't want an unqualified schmuck driving trains and I equally don't want people to be underpaid putting themselves in danger for the emergency services. Not sure who 'deserves' the higher wage.

I agree. But when one doesn't even get half of the others it shows something is wrong.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The English doctors seem happy to be trained here and then leave to Australia where they are paid more. I am sure there is a way the government could stop that.

Aren't you arguing they shouldn't get such a big pay rise?

Yet now you're acknowledging they get paid more elsewhere. I thought you believed in the market setting the price. Well, it seems like the market has set a price...