Do you want to discuss boring politics? (7 Viewers)

[rob9872]

If it was a progressive tax they were raising, I would...

It is

 

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[rob9872]

Or what's actually happening... Let's penalise those worse off and let the rich just carry on, as always. Tories gonna tory.

Imagine actually voting for these shit cunts.

Nope. The worst off are not working and don't contribute If I earn more than you I pay more. Also my employer pays the same. Is that not fair enough for you?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

You're arguing with yourself now! Tax them more because they earn more but most of their income doesn't come from salary??? You really are mixed up.

We need to encourage people to want to take more on and better themselves. Where is the incentive if you're going to be giving it all away? Already 42p in every additional £ earned is lost over £50k and I'm no more burden on services than you or anyone else. And that's just at source without vat or all of the tax I pay on my fuel etc, so I imagine it's considerably more than that.

Hence a wealth tax amongst other things...

'Better' themselves. So I guess all nurses should fuck off their job and do something that earns more so they can 'better' themsleves. Perhaps they could sell expensive tat to trendy people? Or become an influencer?

Richer does not mean better,

If you have high tax rates the more you earn, you still end up with more money.

The fact you used the term 'lost' shows that you've been taken in. It's not 'lost', it's used to improve society. They don't just take it to a field and burn it.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It is

No it isn't.

It's actually a regressive tax because above a certain level the percentage contributed goes down

 

[rob9872]

Hence a wealth tax amongst other things...

'Better' themselves. So I guess all nurses should fuck off their job and do something that earns more so they can 'better' themsleves. Perhaps they could sell expensive tat to trendy people? Or become an influencer?

Richer does not mean better,

If you have high tax rates the more you earn, you still end up with more money.

The fact you used the term 'lost' shows that you've been taken in. It's not 'lost', it's used to improve society. They don't just take it to a field and burn it.

Last time I checked nursing was a caring profession that people went into not just for wealth or career only and yet despite that they do quite nicely. I imagine most nurses (who I agree do a fantastic job) earn more than lots of people on this board with an average salary over £33k. They are far from the breadline although you'd not think that with all of the outrage when they only get a 3% increase - an increase that doesn't only go to the front line, but many of the tory hating middle management pen pushers that the NHS is filled up with playing the system.

 

[PVA]

Nope. The worst off are not working and don't contribute If I earn more than you I pay more. Also my employer pays the same. Is that not fair enough for you?

It particularly affects younger and less well off people. Older, well off people with property and wealth (i.e Tory voters) are not affected so much.

Good thread here on what could have been done instead:

 

[rob9872]

No it isn't.

It's actually a regressive tax because above a certain level the percentage contributed goes down

So it's progressive until it's regressive. The % might reduce, but the contributions increase. Earn more, pay more unless it doesn't suit the agenda so play with a different matrix.

 

[rob9872]

It particularly affects younger and less well off people. Older, well off people with property and wealth (i.e Tory voters) are not affected so much.

Good thread here on what could have been done instead:

So you think pensioners should pay NI after they've already paid for 50 years?

 

[clint van damme]

I love how all of those who didn't even vote for the manifesto are the ones most outraged by it being broken, because they can use it as a new stick to beat the Govt with. You can argue all day about the root cause to suit your agenda, but surely you must with your roots, applaud the increase and what it's being used for.

Those who possibly could rightfully be outraged are people like me who voted for them, are paying the increase and don't have huge savings, but after the past 18 months it's a small price to pay and nothing that can't be reversed in time. If anything they should be commended for recognising the shortfall, finding a solution and having the balls to make that change to their direction knowing how unpopular a decision it would be.

That's bollocks Rob.
They were elected to serve the people based on a manifesto. Whether people voted for them or not is immaterial.
We should be holding our elected officials, from whichever party, to account far more than we do.

 

[PVA]

Hence a wealth tax amongst other things...

'Better' themselves. So I guess all nurses should fuck off their job and do something that earns more so they can 'better' themsleves. Perhaps they could sell expensive tat to trendy people? Or become an influencer?

Richer does not mean better,

If you have high tax rates the more you earn, you still end up with more money.

The fact you used the term 'lost' shows that you've been taken in. It's not 'lost', it's used to improve society. They don't just take it to a field and burn it.

Yep, I used to work with a guy like this.

Didn't want to earn more and go to a higher tax band because he didn't want to 'give all his money to the tax man'. Not realising that he would still be earning more money than he is now. Just a bizarre logic.

 

[rob9872]

Yep, I used to work with a guy like this.

Didn't want to earn more and go to a higher tax band because he didn't want to 'give all his money to the tax man'. Not realising that he would still be earning more money than he is now. Just a bizarre logic.

But is it though? If he's comfortable and only getting a small margin more, then the hassle and expectation that sometimes goes with that next level up is not for everyone and quite a trade off.

 

[hill83]

Bloke I used to work with thought if you hit £50k they instantly take 40% of your money off you so you are better off earning £49k.

 

[PVA]

So you think pensioners should pay NI after they've already paid for 50 years?

If they're still working yes.

If a 67 year old is working and earning £60k why shouldn't they pay NI while a 25 year old earning £20k does?

 

[PVA]

Bloke I used to work with thought if you hit £50k they instantly take 40% of your money off you so you are better off earning £49k.

Yeah I think there's a few people who think like that!

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Last time I checked nursing was a caring profession that people went into not just for wealth or career only and yet despite that they do quite nicely. I imagine most nurses (who I agree do a fantastic job) earn more than lots of people on this board with an average salary over £33k. They are far from the breadline although you'd not think that with all of the outrage when they only get a 3% increase - an increase that doesn't only go to the front line, but many of the tory hating middle management pen pushers that the NHS is filled up with playing the system.

You were the one that equated higher earnings as people 'bettering themselves'.

 

[shmmeee]

I love how all of those who didn't even vote for the manifesto are the ones most outraged by it being broken, because they can use it as a new stick to beat the Govt with. You can argue all day about the root cause to suit your agenda, but surely you must with your roots, applaud the increase and what it's being used for.

Those who possibly could rightfully be outraged are people like me who voted for them, are paying the increase and don't have huge savings, but after the past 18 months it's a small price to pay and nothing that can't be reversed in time. If anything they should be commended for recognising the shortfall, finding a solution and having the balls to make that change to their direction knowing how unpopular a decision it would be.

Govenrments are for everyone not just people who voted for them.

Social care 100% needs funding, but this isn’t that. This is basically pandemic costs which should be borrowed and paid off over time like any other emergency disaster spending. And we should be taxing wealth not work IMO.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Bloke I used to work with thought if you hit £50k they instantly take 40% of your money off you so you are better off earning £49k.

I assume he was nowhere close to that, then

 

[hill83]

I assume he was nowhere close to that, then

Suggesting people who don't earn much are thick bastards are we?

 

[rob9872]

You were the one that equated higher earnings as people 'bettering themselves'.

I was and I stand by it, just don't agree with the 'poor nurses' sentiment. They do a great job, but are far from poor.

 

[shmmeee]

Last time I checked nursing was a caring profession that people went into not just for wealth or career only and yet despite that they do quite nicely. I imagine most nurses (who I agree do a fantastic job) earn more than lots of people on this board with an average salary over £33k. They are far from the breadline although you'd not think that with all of the outrage when they only get a 3% increase - an increase that doesn't only go to the front line, but many of the tory hating middle management pen pushers that the NHS is filled up with playing the system.

TIL earning £2k above the average wage is “doing quite nicely”. JFC man. Have some self respect.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yeah lets penalise people for trying to save and look after their money in favour of those who piss it up the wall (also it wouldn't have generated anywhere near as much, but don't let that get in the way of a good grandstanding soundbyte)

Nurses have basically just fronted their own pay rise with the increase in NI, many of whom have also just lost a lump sum of working tax credits and many of whom rely on food banks. What are they pissing up the wall exactly? Doesn’t need to be nurses either, there’s no shortage of working families who again are about to lose a lump sum of working tax credits and that on top of a NI hike of over 10%. Again what are they pissing up the wall.

 

[COV]

I was and I stand by it, just don't agree with the 'poor nurses' sentiment. They do a great job, but are far from poor.

You say that based on?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

So it's progressive until it's regressive. The % might reduce, but the contributions increase. Earn more, pay more unless it doesn't suit the agenda so play with a different matrix.

Claiming it's progressive because there's a LEL under which people don't contribute is a bit of a stretch. Once you start contributing the percentage you pay goes down the more you earn.

That makes it regressive.

 

[rob9872]

You say that based on?

Based on their average earnings of over £33k

 

[shmmeee]

Yeah can’t move down in Monaco for NHS Nurses in their Lambos

 

[Jamesimus]

So you think pensioners should pay NI after they've already paid for 50 years?

If they can afford it, why not?!

Obviously, not all pensioners are in that boat and some struggle. Should be a tax based on relative wealth (inclusive of assets) rather than accross the board.

Which is a shame because obviously wealth = you have worked harder and made yourself "better" according to some on here

 

[rob9872]

Claiming it's progressive because there's a LEL under which people don't contribute is a bit of a stretch. Once you start contributing the percentage you pay goes down the more you earn.

That makes it regressive.

Only because you're quoting in % and not actual monetary terms which makes it progressive. It's just changing to suit whether you feel it's fair or not. Higher earners pay more into the society pot but only use the same amount. If it were anywhere other than the UK, with our NHS system where we all paid for what we used then there would be a much greater disparity in affordability. Higher earners are already propping up and paying more than their share, so I simply can't see how making them pay even more is right, but even with this tax hike they are.

 

[COV]

Based on their average earnings of over £33k

I earn more than that and I sit on my arse all day, do less hours, never have overtime and I sure as hell haven't ever saved anyone's life. They are underpaid, and wasn't there that controversy where the govt rejected any raises in the pandemic while handing themselves payrises & handing out contracts to chums which turned out to be useless?

Mostly though you seemed to be connecting salary with worth with this talk of 'bettering yourself', which is a pretty horrendous thing to be doing imho

 

[rob9872]

Yeah can’t move down in Monaco for NHS Nurses in their Lambos

I didn't say rich or well off, but not poor which was advocated and a direct quote. A worldo fo difference. I'm not poor, but I also can't afford a lambo in monaco.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Suggesting people who don't earn much are thick bastards are we?

Yeah, we are

 

[COV]

Only because you're quoting in % and not actual monetary terms which makes it progressive. It's just changing to suit whether you feel it's fair or not. Higher earners pay more into the society pot but only use the same amount. If it were anywhere other than the UK, with our NHS system where we all paid for what we used then there would be a much greater disparity in affordability. Higher earners are already propping up and paying more than their share, so I simply can't see how making them pay even more is right, but even with this tax hike they are.

When you say 'higher earners', have you seen the effective taxrates of the really high earners? They absolutely, most definitely do NOT prop up anything.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

I earn more than that

 

[rob9872]

I earn more than that and I sit on my arse all day, do less hours, never have overtime and I sure as hell haven't ever saved anyone's life. They are underpaid, and wasn't there that controversy where the govt rejected any raises in the pandemic while handing themselves payrises & handing out contracts to chums which turned out to be useless?

Mostly though you seemed to be connecting salary with worth with this talk of 'bettering yourself', which is a pretty horrendous thing to be doing imho

If they are paid above average they are not poor. They chose to go into a profession knowing the rates of pay as do plenty of other heroes in the army, police or fire services. All are important. All are paid above average salary. All deserve it. None can claim the wages are poor.

 

[hill83]

Only because you're quoting in % and not actual monetary terms

Correct. And that's where the argument is coming from. It should be percentage, you say it shouldn't be.
This could go on forever.

 

[COV]

If they are paid above average they are not poor. They chose to go into a profession knowing the rates of pay as do plenty of other heroes in the army, police or fire services. All are important. All are paid above average salary. All deserve it. None can claim the wages are poor.

Try converting them to an hourly rate