George Floyd (8 Viewers)

Ring Of Steel

Well-Known Member
It is alarming how many institutions have buckled in the face of this latest progressive onslaught, and it makes me wonder who's behind this huge agenda push.

George Floyd died on the 25th May, and less than 2 weeks later we have some woman in the centre of Cov reading a prepared speech rolling off a long list of examples of why Britain is a quasi-fascist country. Reminds me of the ANL back in the early 80s, which similarly appeared in a matter of weeks with prepared slogans, banners and even a group with anti-fascist songs. People should be wary of having their honourable intentions harnessed for the benefit of wider political agendas.

I thought Candace Owens puts her point across very well - ignore the left/right labels and just listen for the truth you will hear it from people across the political spectrum. She's certainly better than MLMcD.

Perhaps the people behind this progressive onslaught are the people who don't like us glorifying our history of owning slaves & who are a little tired of us refusing to acknowledge the deeply murky aspects of our past.
 

Ring Of Steel

Well-Known Member
He was a caricature; a parody of himself. It was comedy, and everyone loved it.
As i posted on Twitter a little while ago, i though all this PC nonsense was left behind in the late 80s when the loony left Labour councils in places like Liverpool and Leicester (where i lived at the time) insisted on renaming the Christmas tree as "a midwinter arboreal feature", and they wouldn't put Christmas lights up on Belgrave Road (vibrant, mainly Hindu area), in case these acts offended the Hindu (and other BAME) community, only to be told that "well, actually, we're not remotely offended, and rather like joining in with the culture of the country we chose to come to".
The lights now get put up before Diwali and stay up until after Christmas. It wasn't hard.
Can't we focus on doing the stuff that really helps?

Like what? Don't just sit there banging on about "its PC gone mad"- what exactly is it that you think would help?
 

Harry Krishner

Well-Known Member
Perhaps the people behind this progressive onslaught are the people who don't like us glorifying our history of owning slaves & who are a little tired of us refusing to acknowledge the deeply murky aspects of our past.

There's never been any refusal to acknowledge anything. The info is all there if you want it - unlike a lot of countries I could mention.

The point is history is history - it should not be obliterated. You can't expect people who lived years ago to live by standards you now consider normal - they all did what they thought was right/best at the time. Slavery was a big thing right through history until 160 or so years ago, and still goes on now under various guises around the world - but, silence from BLM et al. because it would entail thought and effort.

Knocking down statues will change absolutely nothing for the people that were involved. Which version of history would you prefer?
 

Ring Of Steel

Well-Known Member
There's never been any refusal to acknowledge anything. The info is all there if you want it - unlike a lot of countries I could mention.

The point is history is history - it should not be obliterated. You can't expect people who lived years ago to live by standards you now consider normal - they all did what they thought was right/best at the time. Slavery was a big thing right through history until 160 or so years ago, and still goes on now under various guises around the world - but, silence from BLM et al. because it would entail thought and effort.

Knocking down statues will change absolutely nothing for the people that were involved. Which version of history would you prefer?

You say BLM have been silent on slavery because that would entail thought and effort? wow

You're clearly very wound up by the temerity of people who want to have these abhorrent monuments taken down- for the record my opinion is that they shouldn't be ripped down by people on the street, and there needs to be more thought on what exactly is an 'offensive statue', you are right there. And I wouldn't be chucking them in the river, they should be preserved but in a museum where people can actually learn history- accurate history.

But going back to the original statue- when thousands of people have been trying for years to get it removed without success as a shadowy organisation want to airbrush history and pretend Colston was a hero, I completely get why people would say "enough is enough" and smash the thing to the ground.

People have learned more about Colston, slavery and our past in the last few days than they have done in the many years beforehand, which is a good thing- your point about 'history' is therefore stupid and flawed because what we're seeing now is a real life history lesson. Some such as yourself don't like it, because it forces you to confront some things we did which were horrendous and want it all to go away using the old favourite silly phrases such as "PC gone mad", without grasping that if it is really 'history' then it belongs in a place which aims to educate about history, not on a street as a monument of celebration of people who profited from the suffering of others.
 

Ring Of Steel

Well-Known Member
Robert Clive was a vicious asset-stripper. His statue has no place on Whitehall | William Dalrymple

Having read this, I dont understand why the statue was ever erected and why it is still in situ

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Because there isn't a country on earth with such a troubled relationship with its past as us.

"In Britain, study of the empire is still largely absent from the history curriculum. This still tends to go from the Tudors to the Nazis, Henry to Hitler, with a brief visit to William Wilberforce and Florence Nightingale along the way. We are thus given the impression that the British were always on the side of the angels. We remain almost entirely ignorant about the long history of atrocities and exploitation that accompanied the building of our colonial system. Now, more than ever, we badly need to understand what is common knowledge elsewhere: that for much of history we were an aggressively racist and expansionist force responsible for violence, injustice and war crimes on every continent.

We also need to know how far the British, every bit as much as the Germans, helped codify a system of scientific racism, creating a hierarchy of race that put white Caucasians at the top and blacks, “wandering Jews” and Indian Muslims at the bottom. Yet while the Germans have faced up to the darkest periods of their past, and are taught about it unvarnished in their schools, we have not even made a start to this process. Instead, while we understand that the Belgian and German empires were deeply sinister, the Raj, we like to believe, was like some enormous rose-tinted Merchant Ivory film writ large over the plains of Hindustan, all parasols and Simla tea parties, friendly elephants and handsome, croquet-playing maharajahs.

This has become a real problem. Our vast ignorance of everything that is most uncomfortable about our imperial past is damaging, every day, our relations with the rest of the world. In particular our misplaced nostalgia for our imperial past is encouraging us to overplay our Brexit hand. Contrary to fantasies of Brexiters, our former colonies are not about to warmly embrace us. Nor can we kickstart the empire, as if it were some sort of old motorbike that has been left in a garage for 70 years. The strategy of trying to strike trade deals with Commonwealth countries - dubbed Empire 2.0 by some in the Civil Service – has been a total failure."
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
first I’ve heard of her, but an interesting piece. Her whole premise is against turning a scumbag into a martyr.

Scumbag?

Yes he'd had a criminal past but he had not been in trouble for a long time and it's doubtful that he even knew he was using an allegedly countrfeit note according to the owners of the store.

But people can fuck off when they refer to his past has there is nothing in it that counters the fact he was choked to death for almost 10 minutes.

Candace Owens is a crank and nothing she says is interesting and if you do think that then you are part of the problem.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
It is alarming how many institutions have buckled in the face of this latest progressive onslaught, and it makes me wonder who's behind this huge agenda push.

George Floyd died on the 25th May, and less than 2 weeks later we have some woman in the centre of Cov reading a prepared speech rolling off a long list of examples of why Britain is a quasi-fascist country. Reminds me of the ANL back in the early 80s, which similarly appeared in a matter of weeks with prepared slogans, banners and even a group with anti-fascist songs. People should be wary of having their honourable intentions harnessed for the benefit of wider political agendas.

I thought Candace Owens puts her point across very well - ignore the left/right labels and just listen for the truth you will hear it from people across the political spectrum. She's certainly better than MLMcD.

The ANL used to oppose the growing NF movement.
I suppose they were a principled mob who you were happy to see March, intimidate people and generally spread their poison?
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
tbf, the main complaint about the Bristol statue is that it wasn't.

The main complaint about the Edward Colston statue was that it only described him as a "wise and virtuous son" and the Merchant Venturers of Bristol stopped the even adding a second plaque to the statue that would of stated he was responsible for up 100,000 Africans being tarnsported as slaves and up to 19,000 of them dying.
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
The ANL used to oppose the growing NF movement.
I suppose they were a principled mob who you were happy to see March, intimidate people and generally spread their poison?

He thinks the deluded and factually incorrect ramblings of Candace Owens who doesn't actually believe what she says (she's in it for the money) are great.

Why do these folk not get that for a lot of their icons it's a grift and tehy are just taking their money.
 

OffenhamSkyBlue

Well-Known Member
Like what? Don't just sit there banging on about "its PC gone mad"- what exactly is it that you think would help?
To be honest, RoS, I don't know what would help. I don't know the answer to this question (and it is not intended to be antagonistic towards you), but do you suppose that every person of African heritage in the Caribbean and the Americas spends their time feeling bitter towards Edward Colston and his fellow slave-traders, or Great Britain in general, for their lot in life? I would genuinely like to know the answer, if anyone knows. And then what could be done to address that? "Shipping them back to where they came from" is a phrase adopted by racists and fascists across the world, so i'd be surprised if that is what they wanted.
And can (or DO) the AA community in US blame GB or Colston from 200 years ago for being killed and having the life beaten out of them by a bunch of white supremacist thugs in the police there?
What's your thoughts? Am i over-simplifying it? HOW do we set the record straight in a way that THEY want (not a group of people who might be offended on their behalf - that is no better behaviour than ordering them about like they have been through history)?
Thanks - genuinely.
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
To be honest, RoS, I don't know what would help. I don't know the answer to this question (and it is not intended to be antagonistic towards you), but do you suppose that every person of African heritage in the Caribbean and the Americas spends their time feeling bitter towards Edward Colston and his fellow slave-traders, or Great Britain in general, for their lot in life? I would genuinely like to know the answer, if anyone knows. And then what could be done to address that? "Shipping them back to where they came from" is a phrase adopted by racists and fascists across the world, so i'd be surprised if that is what they wanted.
And can (or DO) the AA community in US blame GB or Colston from 200 years ago for being killed and having the life beaten out of them by a bunch of white supremacist thugs in the police there?
What's your thoughts? Am i over-simplifying it? HOW do we set the record straight in a way that THEY want (not a group of people who might be offended on their behalf - that is no better behaviour than ordering them about like they have been through history)?
Thanks - genuinely.

David Olusoga explains the Edward Colston statue issues better than I ever could

 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Your jibes on his age do slightly undermine your points BSB.

Especially when there are so many other things he can be called out on.

You're better than that.

It’s ‘old man’ views that I’m getting at more than his actual age. Three men of similar age, appearance and outdated political views.
 

LastGarrison

Well-Known Member
It’s ‘old man’ views that I’m getting at more than his actual age. Three men of similar age, appearance and outdated political views.
Have to say I didn't read it like that.........

Anyway, I have used up my one and only "stick up for Grendel" card so I'll leave you both to it!
 

olderskyblue

Well-Known Member
Scumbag?

Yes he'd had a criminal past but he had not been in trouble for a long time and it's doubtful that he even knew he was using an allegedly countrfeit note according to the owners of the store.

But people can fuck off when they refer to his past has there is nothing in it that counters the fact he was choked to death for almost 10 minutes.

Candace Owens is a crank and nothing she says is interesting and if you do think that then you are part of the problem.
You should listen to what she says, and then make your judgement, as she addresses all of that too.

Her point is that the cop was very wrong and should be dealt with, but she will not hold a guy who has been jailed multiple times, including for threatening a pregnant mum with a gun as his mates robbed her property, as a martyr. You may agree or disagree with that, it’s your choice.

putting that view down without even hearing it based on your prejudices is ironic though.
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
You should listen to what she says, and then make your judgement, as she addresses all of that too.

Her point is that the cop was very wrong and should be dealt with, but she will not hold a guy who has been jailed multiple times, including for threatening a pregnant mum with a gun as his mates robbed her property, as a martyr. You may agree or disagree with that, it’s your choice.

putting that view down without even hearing it based on your prejudices is ironic though.

I've listened to her and she was wrong.

So you can take your idiotic prejudices line and basically fuck right off. He is a Martyr as nothing in the definition of a political martyr says they have to have had a squeaky clean past.

You seem to me to be the prejudices one here and I'm really not surprised.

Also you seem to have an Alanis Morrissette level of understanding when it comes to irony.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
I've listened to her and she was wrong.

So you can take your idiotic prejudices line and basically fuck right off. He is a Martyr as nothing in the definition of a political martyr says they have to have had a squeaky clean past.

You seem to me to be the prejudices one here and I'm really not surprised.

Also you seem to have an Alanis Morrissette level of understanding when it comes to irony.

Owens has proven herself to be a complete moron many times in the past and this isn’t an exception. Propped up by rich right wingers as a female Herman Cain
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
I can not be bothered to spend all day arguing with someone who thinks a persons past is in any way relevant when talking about a man who has been murdered by a police officer and says the person who said the below about Hitler is interesting.

"I actually don't have any problems at all with the word "nationalism". I think that the definition gets poisoned by elitists that actually want globalism. Globalism is what I don't want. Whenever we say "nationalism" the first thing people think about, at least in America, is Hitler. You know, [Hitler] was a national socialist, but if Hitler just wanted to make Germany great and have things run well, okay, fine. The problem is that he wanted—he had dreams outside of Germany. He wanted to globalize. He wanted everybody to be German, everybody to be speaking German. Everybody to look a different way. That's not, to me, that's not nationalism"
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
You should listen to what she says, and then make your judgement, as she addresses all of that too.

Her point is that the cop was very wrong and should be dealt with, but she will not hold a guy who has been jailed multiple times, including for threatening a pregnant mum with a gun as his mates robbed her property, as a martyr. You may agree or disagree with that, it’s your choice.

putting that view down without even hearing it based on your prejudices is ironic though.

We’ve heard it. It’s the standard contrarian grifter line. It doesn’t hold up. Should we hold Candace Owens to the anti trump pro SJW views she held more recently when that was making her money, or the attempts to dox right wingers?

The guy last offended in 2007 And Owens just says whatever will get her clicks. That’s all you need to know.
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
Owens has proven herself to be a complete moron many times in the past and this isn’t an exception. Propped up by rich right wingers as a female Herman Cain

And she doesn't even believe what she says, it's a job to her.

She's a joke figure even among the US rght
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
We’ve heard it. It’s the standard contrarian grifter line. It doesn’t hold up. Should we hold Candace Owens to the anti trump pro SJW views she held more recently when that was making her money, or the attempts to dox right wingers?

The guy last offended in 2007 And Owens just says whatever will get her clicks. That’s all you need to know.

Exactly, I don't get why they can't see that it's a grift.

The same as Laurence Fox, it's a grift lads, his career has stalled so he is trying a new career
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
It’s ‘old man’ views that I’m getting at more than his actual age. Three men of similar age, appearance and outdated political views.

No it’s views that you do not agree with - you seem to think views do not change through time.

You only have to look at people born in the 50’s who were banning the bomb and campaigning for love and peace. Do you really think most have not become middle class capitalists

The best Current example is poor old JK Rowling - from a cool hip 50 something to an old out of touch bigot in one tweet.

Conversely of course old piers suddenly seems to be young and down with the kids
 

olderskyblue

Well-Known Member
We’ve heard it. It’s the standard contrarian grifter line. It doesn’t hold up. Should we hold Candace Owens to the anti trump pro SJW views she held more recently when that was making her money, or the attempts to dox right wingers?

The guy last offended in 2007 And Owens just says whatever will get her clicks. That’s all you need to know.
As I said, this is the first ive heard of her, and I thought it was interesting, and worth discussion, because it’s not a view I’ve heard on this issue, but the diddyman assumed I agreed with everything she said and started labelling me because of that.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
No it’s views that you do not agree with - you seem to think views do not change through time.

You only have to look at people born in the 50’s who were banning the bomb and campaigning for love and peace. Do you really think most have not become middle class capitalists

The best Current example is poor old JK Rowling - from a cool hip 50 something to an old out of touch bigot in one tweet.

Conversely of course old piers suddenly seems to be young and down with the kids

Of course views change through time-but you, Francois and Ferrari are of the same ilk and represent a similar way of thinking.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Of course views change through time-but you, Francois and Ferrari are of the same ilk and represent a similar way of thinking.

Nope my views for example on leaving the eu are totally different to theirs.
 

skyblueinBaku

Well-Known Member
I don't have any hate for anyone G, just pointing out some awkward similarities. Admittedly Francois and Ferrari are much more famous gammons than yourself but still close enough.

Who do you think would be a better doppelganger?
Yet another reference to gammon. Would someone please explain the relevance of a joint of pork meat?
 

olderskyblue

Well-Known Member
I can not be bothered to spend all day arguing with someone who thinks a persons past is in any way relevant when talking about a man who has been murdered by a police officer

So many mistakes in one sentence :emoji_laughing:

1 you will argue all day with anyone. It’s your nature
2 it was Candace’s view, not mine. I don’t think she posts on here, so you’re not arguing with her.
3 her issue with his past is regarding making him a martyr, nowt to do with his murder (which she talks about, and agrees with you. Maybe you missed that bit).
4 I’ve never heard of her, or seen the hitler reference before, but nice try to associate me with that comment.
5 lots of things can be extremely contentious but still be interesting. I think it’s a good thing to consider all angles before coming to a view of your own.
 

The coventrian

Well-Known Member
There's a fair bit to be proud of in Britain's history, however there is also a fair bit to be deeply ashamed of. Removing the bad bits & keeping the good- not too sure what the problem is really.
I agree with you but why now? What's changed? Its nothing to do with George floyd. We cant change the past and we shouldn't pander to a small minority.
 

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