The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (48 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Whoever gets it has to face up to the biggest social media & propaganda assault the world has ever seen

Mayor Cheat as he is coming to be known won't handle it. Sanders remains the best chance.

 

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[shmmeee]

It's beyond naïve to think that we and the Yanks don't do it to other countries. Heck the Americans have been rigging foreign elections and initiating coups for decades. Are you claiming that it's down to them Trump got elected and Brexit happened?

Not at all. I think that’s down to a decades long trend away from low education workers towards knowledge workers in first world economies.

But they do it and they do it well, though part of what they do well is give the impression of further reach and power than they actually have.

There is significant evidence of them running troll farms on a wider scale than we do by some distance. That’s mass labour work, not something a few spooks in a computer lab can do and so will leak out if it’s done at scale. It has in Russia, it hasn’t here. They also use state media and influence in a far more blatant way than we do (as part of a strategy). There is lots of evidence of our politicians on both sides having dodgy links and a lot history of spy craft between both countries. Ultimately I am British and care more about being attacked by someone who’s values are so different to mine than my own country doing similar, on a smaller scale, in defence of values I believe in.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Not at all. I think that’s down to a decades long trend away from low education workers towards knowledge workers in first world economies.

But they do it and they do it well, though part of what they do well is give the impression of further reach and power than they actually have.

There is significant evidence of them running troll farms on a wider scale than we do by some distance. That’s mass labour work, not something a few spooks in a computer lab can do and so will leak out if it’s done at scale. It has in Russia, it hasn’t here. They also use state media and influence in a far more blatant way than we do (as part of a strategy). There is lots of evidence of our politicians on both sides having dodgy links and a lot history of spy craft between both countries. Ultimately I am British and care more about being attacked by someone who’s values are so different to mine than my own country doing similar, on a smaller scale, in defence of values I believe in.

Yes

They want to destabilise. And you have to concede that in the war of misinformation, they have routed USA and us.

 

[shmmeee]

Yes

They want to destabilise. And you have to concede that in the war of misinformation, they have routed USA and us.

They have adapted to the Internet age, specifically the modern social based internet, far better than we have. We do mass data collection and analysis on a much wider scale though.

Very much the insurgent vs superpower model TBF.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Required reading, they’ve been planning this for years, and it’s all playing out now
https://amp.news.com.au/world/europe/1990s-manifesto-outlining-russias-plans-is-starting-to-come-true/news-story

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Not at all. I think that’s down to a decades long trend away from low education workers towards knowledge workers in first world economies.

But they do it and they do it well, though part of what they do well is give the impression of further reach and power than they actually have.

There is significant evidence of them running troll farms on a wider scale than we do by some distance. That’s mass labour work, not something a few spooks in a computer lab can do and so will leak out if it’s done at scale. It has in Russia, it hasn’t here. They also use state media and influence in a far more blatant way than we do (as part of a strategy). There is lots of evidence of our politicians on both sides having dodgy links and a lot history of spy craft between both countries. Ultimately I am British and care more about being attacked by someone who’s values are so different to mine than my own country doing similar, on a smaller scale, in defence of values I believe in.

Here we go again penning people into boxes based on where they're born

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yes

They want to destabilise. And you have to concede that in the war of misinformation, they have routed USA and us.

Which country has done more to destabilise the world since the collapse of the USSR? Them or the West?

 

[shmmeee]

Here we go again penning people into boxes based on where they're born

?

I’ve not got a problem with Putins values because he’s Russian.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Which country has done more to destabilise the world since the collapse of the USSR? Them or the West?

Too broad a question. The west has used force to achieve their aims, Russia has used more subversive and inarguably more effective means. Which has done ‘more’ to destabilise? Russia I would say, they’ve pushed Brexit and played a part in the US presidency, the very countries who have done their share of destabilising. They destabilised the destabilisers if you like. Not bad going.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

?

I’ve not got a problem with Putins values because he’s Russian.

So why talk about being British and the values it connotates? Russian citizens are told the same thing about us and look at what good it does on both sides. How many overseas wars has Russia initiated since the 90s? It is far from a model state. But while it has been working away on the internet we have been invading and destabilising countries all over the place.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

So why talk about being British and the values it connotates? Russian citizens are told the same thing about us and look at what good it does on both sides. How many overseas wars has Russia initiated since the 90s? It is far from a model state. But while it has been working away on the internet we have been invading and destabilising countries all over the place.

Russia was not able to go to war with anyone since the 1990s in a traditional manner. But they have been waging their own war and they won it.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Russia was not able to go to war with anyone since the 1990s in a traditional manner. But they have been waging their own war and they won it.

And true to form, we started all of it. The SOE was the ‘inspiration’ for Russian intelligence, historically Russia saw us as their traditional enemies, not the USA.
Actually read some great books on this. The intelligence forces of Russia and GB were head and shoulders above anyone else, but the issue was that the leaders of both countries were bombarded by so much information, so many reports from their ‘spies’, they stopped believing any of it. So the intelligence gathered was rendered useless because nobody believed it.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Too broad a question. The west has used force to achieve their aims, Russia has used more subversive and inarguably more effective means. Which has done ‘more’ to destabilise? Russia I would say, they’ve pushed Brexit and played a part in the US presidency, the very countries who have done their share of destabilising. They destabilised the destabilisers if you like. Not bad going.

Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million mind you and all the Russians did was help to expose Hillary for the corrupt person everyone knew she was. The Middle East is a disaster zone thanks to Western intervention. Libya is the new Somalia thanks to Cameron and Obama. They have been in Afghanistan for nearly 20 years and the situation is worse than when they arrived. Ask most people around the world who the biggest threat is and they don't say Russia, they say the USA.

We are not always the good guys by default.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Russia was not able to go to war with anyone since the 1990s in a traditional manner. But they have been waging their own war and they won it.

It's not thanks to Putin that we're leaving the EU

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million mind you and all the Russians did was help to expose Hillary for the corrupt person everyone knew she was. The Middle East is a disaster zone thanks to Western intervention. Libya is the new Somalia thanks to Cameron and Obama. They have been in Afghanistan for nearly 20 years and the situation is worse than when they arrived. Ask most people around the world who the biggest threat is and they don't say Russia, they say the USA.

We are not always the good guys by default.

I am aware of that and I know we are not, by any measure, the default good guys.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

It's not thanks to Putin that we're leaving the EU

It’s not “thanks” to Putin, that’s too general. But go look at the donations and funding and how much came from Russia, in particular the inimitable Arron Banks who ran leave.eu, the people who pulled at the emotional heartstrings of people with the constant talk of immigration.

They aren’t the only reason but do not underestimate their role.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s not “thanks” to Putin, that’s too general. But go look at the donations and funding and how much came from Russia, in particular the inimitable Arron Banks who ran leave.eu, the people who pulled at the emotional heartstrings of people with the constant talk of immigration.

They aren’t the only reason but do not underestimate their role.

Are we going to ignore the millions that the Cameron government spent trying to get people to vote Remain? The leaflets alone cost Christ knows how much

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Are we going to ignore the millions that the Cameron government spent trying to get people to vote Remain? The leaflets alone cost Christ knows how much

Who reads leaflets? everyone has social media, which was swamped by leave. You can check it, it’s documented.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Are we going to ignore the millions that the Cameron government spent trying to get people to vote Remain? The leaflets alone cost Christ knows how much

£11m wasn’t it

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Who reads leaflets? everyone has social media, which was swamped by leave. You can check it, it’s documented.

Keep blaming the Russians buddy

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Keep blaming the Russians buddy

I already said I didn’t “blame” the Russians, but I did say they had a part to play that you should not underestimate. The info is all around you if you take the time to look- don’t be so blinkered.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Keep blaming the Russians buddy

You don’t have to look far, even bloody Wikipedia has a section on it.

Russian interference in the 2016 Brexit referendum - Wikipedia

it is 100% undeniable, beyond any shadow of doubt that the Russian state has a mass campaign to try and destabilise ‘the west’. What part it played in Brexit can never be quantified, but what we can say is that they went all out to try to influence it their way. Documented fact, not fiction.

 

[shmmeee]

So why talk about being British and the values it connotates? Russian citizens are told the same thing about us and look at what good it does on both sides. How many overseas wars has Russia initiated since the 90s? It is far from a model state. But while it has been working away on the internet we have been invading and destabilising countries all over the place.

It just so happens I believe more in the liberal democracy ideal of the west than the authoritarian east is all. If governments change then fair enough but for now I’m happy with that stance. Why are you so defensive? I’ve said they’re good at modern cold warfare and are using tactics I’d expect from a smaller power with less resource.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You don’t have to look far, even bloody Wikipedia has a section on it.

Russian interference in the 2016 Brexit referendum - Wikipedia

They use computers we and our allies use tanks, bullets and bombs. History won't judge any of them favourably

 

[Ring Of Steel]

It just so happens I believe more in the liberal democracy ideal of the west than the authoritarian east is all. If governments change then fair enough but for now I’m happy with that stance. Why are you so defensive? I’ve said they’re good at modern cold warfare and are using tactics I’d expect from a smaller power with less resource.

And I hate the way that we are becoming less liberal.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

They use computers we and our allies use tanks, bullets and bombs. History won't judge any of them favourably

No I agree, but that wasn’t the point was it?

 

[shmmeee]

And I hate the way that we are becoming less liberal.

I don’t know. While freeze peach is a thing, generally it’s couched in the language of Liberty still. It might be the Liberty to be a bigoted arse, but it’s still Liberty. That’s the price you pay for a truly free society.

edit: so proud of Liberty autocorrect capitalises it

 

[Ring Of Steel]

It just so happens I believe more in the liberal democracy ideal of the west than the authoritarian east is all. If governments change then fair enough but for now I’m happy with that stance. Why are you so defensive? I’ve said they’re good at modern cold warfare and are using tactics I’d expect from a smaller power with less resource.

That’s the point, they do have less resource. They can’t take on USA in traditional warfare, they couldn’t win. They were smart enough to work out other ways to achieve their aims- ie destabilisation.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It just so happens I believe more in the liberal democracy ideal of the west than the authoritarian east is all. If governments change then fair enough but for now I’m happy with that stance. Why are you so defensive? I’ve said they’re good at modern cold warfare and are using tactics I’d expect from a smaller power with less resource.

Because I'm tired of having 'enemy' states where both sets of people are taught that their opposite numbers are bad because xyz. We in the West have done far more physical harm than they have.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

The result of all this is that Brexit is just one aspect of a shift in the world, the world is changing.

 

[shmmeee]

Because I'm tired of having 'enemy' states where both sets of people are taught that their opposite numbers are bad because xyz. We in the West have done far more physical harm than they have.

Im tired of it too, but the fact is Russia don’t like us and are actively engaged in trying to disrupt our democracy. And until that stops we’ll need countermeasures. I hope when (if) Putin goes there can be genuine peace.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Because I'm tired of having 'enemy' states where both sets of people are taught that their opposite numbers are bad because xyz. We in the West have done far more physical harm than they have.

Yes but this isn’t about a historical analysis, its about what is happening now.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That’s the point, they do have less resource. They can’t take on USA in traditional warfare, they couldn’t win. They were smart enough to work out other ways to achieve their aims- ie destabilisation.

They can't do it because of mutually assured destruction.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Im tired of it too, but the fact is Russia don’t like us and are actively engaged in trying to disrupt our democracy. And until that stops we’ll need countermeasures. I hope when (if) Putin goes there can be genuine peace.

Russia have always seen us as the enemy.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yes but this isn’t about a historical analysis, its about what is happening now.

Right now the Americans are involved in multiple conflicts around the world and are still in Afghanistan. They're also still helping the Saudis commit atrocities in Yemen. Oh and they just assassinated a foreign general on foreign ground