The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (45 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Yes. I’m dating a Dutch girl.

Can you not clog up this thread with personal anecdotes please

 

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[SkyblueBazza]

Nothing stops them now and they can drive around Europe unchecked. Hence why it is important countries that border a non-EU country have checks in place.

I thought one of the reasons for leaving was to 'take back control'? Or are we conceding that was another lie and we'll actually have less control of our borders?

We can (attempt to) stop ANYONE or ANYTHING crossing our borders at any time we decide fit to do so if we have control of them.
It then becomes a case of what controls do WE wish to have of them, both now & in the future. At the moment many things either have or could be 'negotiated' away

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[SkyblueBazza]

According to the Sunday Times Boris is to tell the queen sack me if you dare. Is this really what we’ve come to? The PM playing chicken with the monarchy? What next? Spin the bottle to decide deal or no deal.

So now you are choosing to believe a newspaper reporting hearsay.

Incredible!

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[CCFCSteve]

According to the Sunday Times Boris is to tell the queen sack me if you dare. Is this really what we’ve come to? The PM playing chicken with the monarchy? What next? Spin the bottle to decide deal or no deal.

Spin the bottle in my youth wasn’t used to decide such trivial matters Tony !!

Look, this all Johnsons pretence to keep the pressure on the EU to do a deal. Otherwise as I’ve said (probably 100 times before) there’s little incentive for the EU, it will always be extend and dictate the length of extension

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

This really isn’t hard. WTO rules require you to have a border, as do EU rules. That’s the nature of a customs union, it can’t be porous.

We literally have three options:

- Hard Brexit and build a border
- CU Brexit and no borders
- CU Brexit just gotta NI and border in the Irish Sea

We have refused to choose one and instead played silly buggers so no politician has to be the one to break some eggs for this omelette.

EU rules require a border but we won't be in the EU so from your simplified choices I'd say a hard border requires the EU to put one in place.
That's fine. Let's get on with it. They can put it up.
What's the problem? Why the delay ?

 

[Sick Boy]

Spin the bottle in my youth wasn’t used to decide such trivial matters Tony !!

Look, this all Johnsons pretence to keep the pressure on the EU to do a deal. Otherwise as I’ve said (probably 100 times before) there’s little incentive for the EU, it will always be extend and dictate the length of extension

It’s a hell of a long way away from the UK holding all of the cards and being able to dictate on terms.

Just imagine negotiations with world superpowers, the UK is going to get completely dictated to and taken to the cleaners.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

It’s a hell of a long way away from the UK holding all of the cards and being able to dictate on terms.

Just imagine negotiations with world superpowers, the UK is going to get completely dictated to and taken to the cleaners.

We never held all the cards but threw away what we had when no deal was taken way by the lily livered softies in parliament.

 

[skybluetony176]

We never held all the cards but threw away what we had when no deal was taken way by the lily livered softies in parliament.

So what happened to the Germans still wanting to sell us cars and the French still wanting to sell us cheese and wine? Are you suggesting that the leave campaign were lying? Boris even repeated it in the televised debates of the Tory leadership contest.

 

[RegTheDonk]

Blimy, here's me thinking we're also a superpower. Reading all this I get the impression we're about as appealing as Greece and need to go cap in hand to every other place not in the special EU club to get investment and trade.
Begs the question why do so many fuckers want to come and work here. I assume post Haloween everyone will be rocking up into France, Italy or Germany as the UK will be a wasteground.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

So what happened to the Germans still wanting to sell us cars and the French still wanting to sell us cheese and wine? Are you suggesting that the leave campaign were lying? Boris even repeated it in the televised debates of the Tory leadership contest.

What on earth are you blabbering on about ?
Are you suggesting that I'm suggesting that the leave campaign were lying ?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Blimy, here's me thinking we're also a superpower. Reading all this I get the impression we're about as appealing as Greece and need to go cap in hand to every other place not in the special EU club to get investment and trade.
Begs the question why do so many fuckers want to come and work here. I assume post Haloween everyone will be rocking up into France, Italy or Germany as the UK will be a wasteground.

The apocalypse is less than 4 weeks away. By then end of November we'll all be wasting away living on the scraps we usually feed to the birds and no cheap skilled builders from the east to fix us up a decent place to survive the years of poverty ahead.

 

[RegTheDonk]

The apocalypse is less than 4 weeks away. By then end of November we'll all be wasting away living on the scraps we usually feed to the birds and no cheap skilled builders from the east to fix us up a decent place to survive the years of poverty ahead.

Oh no!

Psssst - don't worry Al, I've got a plan. Some of the lads here live in the EU I'm sure they'll welcome us when we're homeless and desolute. We just need to butter them up a bit.....

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Oh no!

Psssst - don't worry Al, I've got a plan. Some of the lads here live in the EU I'm sure they'll welcome us when we're homeless and desolute. We just need to butter them up a bit.....

Put me down for a room.

 

[djr8369]

I haven't seen the plans but I would guess it would be like every other border in the world. Do you know of a border outside a customs union that has zero border infrastructure?

But lets say we do just leave an open border, or have checks miles away from the border, how have we then 'taken back control'? How are you stopping people and / or goods that shouldn't be crossing the border from doing so? Are you also expecting the EU to not enforce its own regulations regarding borders and just let Ireland remain indefinitely with an open border to a non EU / customs union country?

The problem is people are so used to the single market they now can’t imagine an actual border.


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[djr8369]

EU rules require a border but we won't be in the EU so from your simplified choices I'd say a hard border requires the EU to put one in place.
That's fine. Let's get on with it. They can put it up.
What's the problem? Why the delay ?

Really?

WTO requires a border as well. Plus we’ll still need a trade deal of some kind with the E.U. You can’t just have an open border else you’re open to all sorts of illegal activity and you spread that to anyone else you have any kind of free movement of goods with.


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[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Really?

WTO requires a border as well. Plus we’ll still need a trade deal of some kind with the E.U. You can’t just have an open border else you’re open to all sorts of illegal activity and you spread that to anyone else you have any kind of free movement of goods with.


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So does that mean we need to put up a border on the Northern Ireland side (WTO) and the Irish/EU need to put up a border on their side as well , so we get a duplicate or will one border satisfy both the EU and WTO ? Two would be really stupid wouldn't it ? If there is to be one border, which side would it be on ?

 

[djr8369]

So does that mean we need to put up a border on the Northern Ireland side (WTO) and the Irish/EU need to put up a border on their side as well , so we get a duplicate or will one border satisfy both the EU and WTO ? Two would be really stupid wouldn't it ? If there is to be one border, which side would it be on ?

I’d imagine in reality they’d be some shared use of resources and infrastructure but imagine what the negotiations for that would be like!


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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I’d imagine in reality they’d be some shared use of resources and infrastructure but imagine what the negotiations for that would be like!


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I assume it'd be one border with us checking stuff coming into NI and them checking stuff going into Eire.

 

[skybluetony176]

What on earth are you blabbering on about ?
Are you suggesting that I'm suggesting that the leave campaign were lying ?

I’m not suggesting anything. I asked questions. Hence the question marks.

 

[fernandopartridge]

We never held all the cards but threw away what we had when no deal was taken way by the lily livered softies in parliament.

The threat of no deal has been there for 3 years and got us precisely nowhere. Bark up another tree.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

I’m not suggesting anything. I asked questions. Hence the question marks.

Oh really ? How thick I am ? I think you need to get yourself a little sense of humour.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

The threat of no deal has been there for 3 years and got us precisely nowhere. Bark up another tree.

A no deal threat only works when the deadline is imminent. We have never reached that point. You're barking at the moon.

 

[skybluetony176]

Oh really ? How thick I am compared to you.

You did think no deal was a credible threat so you tell me.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

You did think no deal was a credible threat so you tell me.

But of course, like all those with a master's in hindsight, you doubtlessly knew better. Now it's gone we'll never really know will we? Still you must be absolutely delighted now that no deal's been removed. A mighty relief I should think.

 

[skybluetony176]

But of course, like all those with a master's in hindsight, you doubtlessly knew better. Now it's gone we'll never really know will we? Still you must be absolutely delighted now that no deal's been removed. A mighty relief I should think.

Said from the off that our hand was overstated and like others who made the same point got loads of shit for saying so because the French would still want to sell us cheese and wine, the Germans still want to sell us cars, they have more to lose than us and other nonsense along those lines from the leave campaign. No hindsight needed if it was what you were saying all along and I and others were.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Said from the off that our hand was overstated and like others who made the same point got loads of shit for saying so because the French would still want to sell us cheese and wine, the Germans still want to sell us cars, they have more to lose than us and other nonsense along those lines from the leave campaign. No hindsight needed if it was what you were saying all along and I and others were.

Well done to you then. Of course those in the leave camp are far , far more likely to dole out "shit" than the more educated and reasonable remainers. You have to make allowances for ignorance in this world and it's shameful how unreasonable some people are.

 

[chiefdave]

What's the problem? Why the delay ?

Do you genuinely not know what the issue is with putting up a hard border between NI and the Republic?

 

[skybluetony176]

You have to make allowances for ignorance in this world and it's shameful how unreasonable some people are.

Do you genuinely not know what the issue is with putting up a hard border between NI and the Republic?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Do you genuinely not know what the issue is with putting up a hard border between NI and the Republic?

Clearly not. Go ahead and give me your take on it. Do you know exactly what the EU want as regards the Irish border because I don't .

 

[chiefdave]

We can (attempt to) stop ANYONE or ANYTHING crossing our borders at any time we decide fit to do so if we have control of them.
It then becomes a case of what controls do WE wish to have of them, both now & in the future. At the moment many things either have or could be 'negotiated' away

In terms of border control if we leave with no deal what control will we have under WTO rules that we didn't have as a member of the EU?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

In terms of border control if we leave with no deal what control will we have under WTO rules that we didn't have as a member of the EU?

As a member of the EU, what border conrols are you thinking we currently have ?

 

[chiefdave]

As a member of the EU, what border conrols are you thinking we currently have ?

When most people talk of 'taking back control' I strongly suspect they are referring to people not goods yet that is something we already control. We currently monitor air, sea and tunnel and require everyone to pass through passport control with the exception of those from Ireland where the CTA removes the need for passports.

Under EU freedom of movement we can refuse entry on security grounds and require people to leave if they do not find employment and / or have the ability to support themselves within three months of arrival. Of course the home office has never enforced that but that is down to our government not the EU.

This is a common pattern our government was also one of only three EU original members, along with Ireland and Sweden, not to implement transitional restrictions when the EU expanded to include several eastern European countries in 2004.

Similarly it was our government, not the EU, who removed exit checks meaning that since 1998 we have no reliable information on who has and hasn't left the country.

And of course it's important to remember that the largest group entering the UK is consistently non-EU migrants. Our membership, or lack thereof, will make no difference to them.

The additional requirements upon leaving will be to control the flow of goods as our border will now be the border to a different trade area. As we all know that means there is either a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland or a border between the Island of Ireland and Great Britain. Both of which have been ruled out as unacceptable to those living and working in Ireland and Northern Ireland. I can't really see any way around that.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

When most people talk of 'taking back control' I strongly suspect they are referring to people not goods yet that is something we already control. We currently monitor air, sea and tunnel and require everyone to pass through passport control with the exception of those from Ireland where the CTA removes the need for passports.

Under EU freedom of movement we can refuse entry on security grounds and require people to leave if they do not find employment and / or have the ability to support themselves within three months of arrival. Of course the home office has never enforced that but that is down to our government not the EU.

This is a common pattern our government was also one of only three EU original members, along with Ireland and Sweden, not to implement transitional restrictions when the EU expanded to include several eastern European countries in 2004.

Similarly it was our government, not the EU, who removed exit checks meaning that since 1998 we have no reliable information on who has and hasn't left the country.

And of course it's important to remember that the largest group entering the UK is consistently non-EU migrants. Are membership, or lack thereof, will make no difference to them.

The additional requirements upon leaving will be to control the flow of goods as our border will now be the border to a different trade area. As we all know that means there is either a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland or a border between the Island of Ireland and Great Britain. Both of which have been ruled out as unacceptable to those living and working in Ireland and Northern Ireland. I can't really see any way around that.

Super clarity. Excellent post

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

When most people talk of 'taking back control' I strongly suspect they are referring to people not goods yet that is something we already control. We currently monitor air, sea and tunnel and require everyone to pass through passport control with the exception of those from Ireland where the CTA removes the need for passports.

Under EU freedom of movement we can refuse entry on security grounds and require people to leave if they do not find employment and / or have the ability to support themselves within three months of arrival. Of course the home office has never enforced that but that is down to our government not the EU.

This is a common pattern our government was also one of only three EU original members, along with Ireland and Sweden, not to implement transitional restrictions when the EU expanded to include several eastern European countries in 2004.

Similarly it was our government, not the EU, who removed exit checks meaning that since 1998 we have no reliable information on who has and hasn't left the country.

And of course it's important to remember that the largest group entering the UK is consistently non-EU migrants. Our membership, or lack thereof, will make no difference to them.

The additional requirements upon leaving will be to control the flow of goods as our border will now be the border to a different trade area. As we all know that means there is either a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland or a border between the Island of Ireland and Great Britain. Both of which have been ruled out as unacceptable to those living and working in Ireland and Northern Ireland. I can't really see any way around that.

Where was this copied from ?

 

[Astute]

Said from the off that our hand was overstated and like others who made the same point got loads of shit for saying so because the French would still want to sell us cheese and wine, the Germans still want to sell us cars, they have more to lose than us and other nonsense along those lines from the leave campaign. No hindsight needed if it was what you were saying all along and I and others were.

Our hand kept getting chopped off.

This is exactly where I differ to most on here. It would be like me taking my wife to buy a car and have her constantly saying that we would be happy to pay the full price when I am trying to knock the price down.

So how did the Swiss get such a good agreement? Was it by half of them in charge making new laws to stop a strong negotiating hand? How about the other countries that are not full members?

Yes you are right. They do want to sell us their wares. But they want us to remain much more than anything else. And we have a majority of MP's that want us to remain. And they don't want to have a stronger hand for leave negotiations.

This is why I constantly say I can't see us leaving. Nothing will be easy to push through.