The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (36 Viewers)

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
What I genuinely don't understand, Astute is why we keep going to the EU and getting rejected over and over again, rather than say to the EU "what do you actually want ?" and publish to our citizens what they come up with . As for the Irish backstop, its a complete red herring.
Are the Frenchies at school wearing our flag, or are there lots of Brits there ?

Because the EU agreed a deal ages ago that has only one point of controversy and the UK hasn’t put forward an alternative. Oh and we’re the ones wanting to leave the club and maybe it’s not the EU’s job to find us the best way out.

You’ll have to keep your middle finger on ice for now until Flip Off Europe Day
 

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
Because the EU agreed a deal ages ago that has only one point of controversy and the UK hasn’t put forward an alternative. Oh and we’re the ones wanting to leave the club and maybe it’s not the EU’s job to find us the best way out.

You’ll have to keep your middle finger on ice for now until Flip Off Europe Day
What's the one point of contention from the deal from a while ago ?
 

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
....backstop. You know, the one JRM and co couldn’t stomach
What I don't genuinely understand is this : no one wants it. The Irish, the EU nor the UK. If there is to be a hard border which would involve physical checkpoints, who is going to actually build them ?
I think the answer is ......no one.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
What I don't genuinely understand is this : no one wants it. The Irish, the EU nor the UK. If there is to be a hard border which would involve physical checkpoints, who is going to actually build them ?
I think the answer is ......no one.

The keyword being 'backstop', i.e. an option of last resort.
 

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
The keyword being 'backstop', i.e. an option of last resort.
But who will actually implement a border ? Has anyone said they will do it and how they'll do it ?
I've not heard anything addressing this basic question. Its all bullshit. There will be no hard border because no one dare build one.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
But who will actually implement a border ? Has anyone said they will do it and how they'll do it ?
I've not heard anything addressing this basic question. Its all bullshit. There will be no hard border because no one dare build one.

If it's all bullshit and never going to happen why did JRM and his crew postpone Brexit by 6 months because of it?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
But who will actually implement a border ? Has anyone said they will do it and how they'll do it ?
I've not heard anything addressing this basic question. Its all bullshit. There will be no hard border because no one dare build one.
Ireland will, they will have contingency plans for it. Varadkar has repeatedly stated they will not allow Ireland to be moved out of the single market by the actions of the UK. If they are to remain in the single market it is their responsibility to enforce any borders. The EU have said they will allow them a grace period to get that operational but that's it.

What do you think is going to happen? Do you really believe it will just be left open as a free for all?
 

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
Ireland will, they will have contingency plans for it. Varadkar has repeatedly stated they will not allow Ireland to be moved out of the single market by the actions of the UK. If they are to remain in the single market it is their responsibility to enforce any borders. The EU have said they will allow them a grace period to get that operational but that's it.

What do you think is going to happen? Do you really believe it will just be left open as a free for all?
No. It can all be done away from the border. Its being used as a political tool. Its utter nonsense.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
No. It can all be done away from the border. Its being used as a political tool. Its utter nonsense.
If you do it away from the border how are you stopping anything not declared passing over the border? How are you stopping illegal immigrants just walking straight in to the UK unchallenged? That doesn't seem to fit the mantra of 'taking back control' to me.

'Away from the border' is a cop out anyway. Its replacing one border with two and some weird nothing zone in between.
 

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
If you do it away from the border how are you stopping anything not declared passing over the border? How are you stopping illegal immigrants just walking straight in to the UK unchallenged? That doesn't seem to fit the mantra of 'taking back control' to me.

'Away from the border' is a cop out anyway. Its replacing one border with two and some weird nothing zone in between.
If there is a hard border are they going to stop and check every vehicle crossing it ?
 

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
If you do it away from the border how are you stopping anything not declared passing over the border? How are you stopping illegal immigrants just walking straight in to the UK unchallenged? That doesn't seem to fit the mantra of 'taking back control' to me.

'Away from the border' is a cop out anyway. Its replacing one border with two and some weird nothing zone in between.
People moving is going to be a problem. Transport of goods/ freight shouldn't be. ANPR and tracking systems will cover most of that.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
If there is a hard border are they going to stop and check every vehicle crossing it ?
I haven't seen the plans but I would guess it would be like every other border in the world. Do you know of a border outside a customs union that has zero border infrastructure?

But lets say we do just leave an open border, or have checks miles away from the border, how have we then 'taken back control'? How are you stopping people and / or goods that shouldn't be crossing the border from doing so? Are you also expecting the EU to not enforce its own regulations regarding borders and just let Ireland remain indefinitely with an open border to a non EU / customs union country?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Transport of goods/ freight shouldn't be. ANPR and tracking systems will cover most of that.
How will it? It will only be effective for those who are happy to abide by the rules and declare their goods.

Do you think someone with a truckload of heroin (extreme example I know but it illustrates the point) is going to voluntarily go to a border check miles away from the border and declare their goods? Or is it more likely they will be on false plates and just drive over the border before changing the plates and disappearing without trace?
 

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
I haven't seen the plans but I would guess it would be like every other border in the world. Do you know of a border outside a customs union that has zero border infrastructure?

But lets say we do just leave an open border, or have checks miles away from the border, how have we then 'taken back control'? How are you stopping people and / or goods that shouldn't be crossing the border from doing so? Are you also expecting the EU to not enforce its own regulations regarding borders and just let Ireland remain indefinitely with an open border to a non EU / customs union country?
This is precisely my point in reality. What are the EU actually going to do ? They have to enforce a border and to be honest without some kind of physical border they can't stop people moving across unchecked. I think that northern ireland is going to suffer with a physical border with the south. Let's face it, you can get from the north to the south without using roads at all. Its virtually impossible to stop as things stand. I think the only answer is for some kind of identity card system in the north which is linked to some kind of national data base along with national insurance number, passport, and the usual stuff which confirms you as a resident of N.I. or the rest of the UK, then there's the problem of those from Europe in the north for legitimate reasons either permanently or for work. Its a nightmare but surely it can be overcome if there is a will on both sides, which I don't think there is.
 

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
How will it? It will only be effective for those who are happy to abide by the rules and declare their goods.

Do you think someone with a truckload of heroin (extreme example I know but it illustrates the point) is going to voluntarily go to a border check miles away from the border and declare their goods? Or is it more likely they will be on false plates and just drive over the border before changing the plates and disappearing without trace?
What stops them now?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
How will it? It will only be effective for those who are happy to abide by the rules and declare their goods.

Do you think someone with a truckload of heroin (extreme example I know but it illustrates the point) is going to voluntarily go to a border check miles away from the border and declare their goods? Or is it more likely they will be on false plates and just drive over the border before changing the plates and disappearing without trace?
Whereas now they can drive unchecked from one side of Europe to the other.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
This is precisely my point in reality. What are the EU actually going to do ?
In terms of putting a border in place absolutely nothing. However a membership requirement is to maintain the integrity of the single market. That places the burden on Ireland. Their government has already stated the options they will be left with is put border controls in place between Ireland and Northern Ireland or face border checks themselves when entering mainland Europe.

That's the issue. Just throwing our hands up and saying 'not our problem' doesn't make the problem go away.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
What stops them now?
Whereas now they can drive unchecked from one side of Europe to the other.
Nothing stops them now and they can drive around Europe unchecked. Hence why it is important countries that border a non-EU country have checks in place.

I thought one of the reasons for leaving was to 'take back control'? Or are we conceding that was another lie and we'll actually have less control of our borders?
 

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
I thought the EU actually didn't want a hard border, because of the threat to the good Friday agreement. If there has to be a hard border, and it's apparent that both sides reluctantly agree that there is no alternative, then it puzzles me as to why they don't just get on with it and do the deal.
They keep saying they can't agree over the Irish backstop but they don't declare what the sticking point actually is. Its either a hard border or something else.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
If you do it away from the border how are you stopping anything not declared passing over the border? How are you stopping illegal immigrants just walking straight in to the UK unchallenged? That doesn't seem to fit the mantra of 'taking back control' to me.

'Away from the border' is a cop out anyway. Its replacing one border with two and some weird nothing zone in between.

Yep, one surefire way to make sure there's no animosity is to create a no man's land....
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
What I genuinely don't understand, Astute is why we keep going to the EU and getting rejected over and over again, rather than say to the EU "what do you actually want ?" and publish to our citizens what they come up with . As for the Irish backstop, its a complete red herring.
Are the Frenchies at school wearing our flag, or are there lots of Brits there ?
Very simple.

The EU wants us to stay. The countries of the EU want us to stay. Why would they want to make leaving easy for us?

Adults as well as children are wearing our flag and displaying it elsewhere. We don't live where there's a lot of Brits.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
According to the Sunday Times Boris is to tell the queen sack me if you dare. Is this really what we’ve come to? The PM playing chicken with the monarchy? What next? Spin the bottle to decide deal or no deal.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
According to the Sunday Times Boris is to tell the queen sack me if you dare. Is this really what we’ve come to? The PM playing chicken with the monarchy? What next? Spin the bottle to decide deal or no deal.

She didn’t stop his proroguing, didn’t stop the illegal war with Iraq and gave assent to Section 28. Her role is meaningless and the position should be scrapped.
 

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
Very simple.

The EU wants us to stay. The countries of the EU want us to stay. Why would they want to make leaving easy for us?
They are not negotiating as far as I can see. The shutters have been pulled down.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
I thought the EU actually didn't want a hard border, because of the threat to the good Friday agreement. If there has to be a hard border, and it's apparent that both sides reluctantly agree that there is no alternative, then it puzzles me as to why they don't just get on with it and do the deal.
They keep saying they can't agree over the Irish backstop but they don't declare what the sticking point actually is. Its either a hard border or something else.

This really isn’t hard. WTO rules require you to have a border, as do EU rules. That’s the nature of a customs union, it can’t be porous.

We literally have three options:

- Hard Brexit and build a border
- CU Brexit and no borders
- CU Brexit just gotta NI and border in the Irish Sea

We have refused to choose one and instead played silly buggers so no politician has to be the one to break some eggs for this omelette.
 

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