The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (15 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It was a joint thing between Smith making the Labour party good again and policies from the Tories. Once people saw through him he got out.

Think it was more the economy being about to collapse

 

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[Sick Boy]

Social attitude surveys show very little difference between England and Scotland

And when was the last time the UK had a true left wing government?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No I was quoting a source I can quote others if you wish

I don’t think Mr Corbyn took action against the story did he?

I also only see right wing papers covering it 4 years ago and not a word since. Curiously nothing against Margaret Hodge though she was used to compare Corbyn to the Nazis by Sky

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And when was the last time the UK had a true left wing government?

That isn’t the point people vote against their own self interests for reasons well established. For what it’s worth, probably not since 1945

 

[tisza]

So why do the Tories get away with it every cycle

Because nobody reads the manifesto and believes the poshos

Every cycle? We are on a run of Tory Govts which started with a coalition and has ended with something similar. Before that we had the Blair Govts which commanded huge majorities. what is it 12 Tory Govts vs 9 Labour since WW2? Hardly conclusive
People have far greater access to manifestos and information due to internet, social media etc. than at any time in our history. Been more than enough

 

[tisza]

Seems to me like the whole bundle of policies is popular. More to the point they are mainstream in some parts of Europe.

Throw that against Tory pledges to deny teachers a pay rise, reinstate a 3 tier education system, grant above inflation increases to military funding etc

So how do they not win an election? The swing vote is there.
Is Labour so wholly untrustworthy that it isn't to be believed? Nonsense we've had modern Labour Govts.
Is Corbyn so unpopular that he negates all the policy appeal? Can't be.
Maybe the rumours of him being ousted if there was a Labour win at the last election were off-putting? Doubtful.
Last 3 elections show the Tories were there for the taking so why couldn't it be done?

 

[Ian1779]

So how do they not win an election? The swing vote is there.
Is Labour so wholly untrustworthy that it isn't to be believed? Nonsense we've had modern Labour Govts.
Is Corbyn so unpopular that he negates all the policy appeal? Can't be.
Maybe the rumours of him being ousted if there was a Labour win at the last election were off-putting? Doubtful.
Last 3 elections show the Tories were there for the taking so why couldn't it be done?

Labour's No.1 problem is losing Scotland at the moment. It makes an outright majority very difficult as it stands. There is a big proportion of swing voters, but it only impacts if they are in marginal seats. Having swing voters in safe seats has no impact.

 

[tisza]

Have to applaud Speaker telling MPs that they are not traitors and are voting with their consciences.
Maybe the way forward is to properly remove the whip system completely to allow free votes on all issues. But maybe only when they can repair the perceived disconnect between politicians and their voters.

 

[Sick Boy]

Have to applaud Speaker telling MPs that they are not traitors and are voting with their consciences.
Maybe the way forward is to properly remove the whip system completely to allow free votes on all issues. But maybe only when they can repair the perceived disconnect between politicians and their voters.

Agreed, they should also vote based on their actual beliefs and principles rather than clinging to power.

 

[tisza]

Labour's No.1 problem is losing Scotland at the moment. It makes an outright majority very difficult as it stands. There is a big proportion of swing voters, but it only impacts if they are in marginal seats. Having swing voters in safe seats has no impact.

But surely the Blair majorities showed there are enough swing voters to make a big difference? Took an 8% ?? swing to get him in and even 2 notable swings away in next 2 elections still saw him hold big majorities.

 

[tisza]

TUC and CBI in full agreement. Maybe it is a new dawn.

 

[Ian1779]

But surely the Blair majorities showed there are enough swing voters to make a big difference? Took an 8% ?? swing to get him in and even 2 notable swings away in next 2 elections still saw him hold big majorities.

It is worth pointing out that he achieved a big swing after being 'endorsed' by the UK's biggest selling newspaper at the time.

 

[Grendel]

And when was the last time the UK had a true left wing government?

1970’s went really well

 

[tisza]

It is worth pointing out that he achieved a big swing after being 'endorsed' by the UK's biggest selling newspaper at the time.

Slightly ironic as it was the day Blair came out with his opposition to a European superstate and single currency that The Sun switched sides

 

[SIR ERNIE]

driving the country off the cliff

I want to remain. I want close trading ties with our closest neighbours. The whole thing is madness.
Second best is being in the customs union, because no amount of trade deals with fucking Timbuktu will make up for the size of the lost market.
Waaaaaaay down the list is a no deal that makes us butt buddies to the US and china.

You see this is what people who've never negotiated a deal don't get. They swallow Guardian garbage like 'cliff edge' and 'crash out' without understanding that the best way to get a great deal, a close trading relationship, is to walk away.

No deal = great deal.

 

[Astute]

You avoided it because you assumed I wouldn’t engage. I can and will

Wrong. Have had enough of the idiots that don't want a debate but constantly post crap.

 

[Astute]

Think it was more the economy being about to collapse

Sounds like you don't have a clue about John Smith and what he did for Labour. This is what we should be looking for. Corbyn wasn't even fit to clean the shoes of the man.

John Smith would have led us to a decent world | John McTernan

So what do you think of the man now?

 

[Sick Boy]

Wrong. Have had enough of the idiots that don't want a debate but constantly post crap.

More like those who don’t agree with you or call you out.

 

[shmmeee]

UKIP's level of support at last GE showed what people thought of their politics once they moved from basically a single issue party to a far right agenda 1.8% of votes cast.

I'd like to see some data about these polls that show how popular they are but aren't so much when voters are told they belong to the Labour Party.
Why is it people like the policies but not the party? Surely good policies is what swings votes. The current UK swing vote is around 40% and on a steady increase. It's certainly what helped put New Labour in.
what do you mean by "socially liberal" or is it the American "socially liberal, fiscally conservative"?

Socially liberal/identity politics/SJW crap focusing on “social justice” rather than economic justice. Being anti-police and anti-military. Left wing social authoritarianism stuff. The Dems in the states have a similar problem.

UKIP collapsed because of the referendum. Before that, there was quite a debate in the party over stuff like privatising the NHS for example. They’re an alt-right meme party now not a serious party so pretty irrelevant.

As for polls: How popular are the parties’ manifesto policies? | YouGov

First result on google. Last elections policies. Take out the immigration stuff and all the economic stuff (even from the Tories) that’s popular is left wing (more money for NHS, raise NMW etc) and there’s a good argument the left wing position economically on immigration should be against it.

Here’s another from a couple of months ago on Corbyns policies specifically: Eurotrack: Corbyn’s policies popular in Europe and UK | YouGov


And an older article on Green Party policies;
If people voted for policies, the Green Party would win the next

 

[clint van damme]

So how about as far back as yesterday when he walked out of a very important meeting because an ex Labour MP was invited?

It isn't bad press. It is bad decisions.

I wouldn't sit in a room with ummana he's a snake.

 

[Astute]

I wouldn't sit in a room with ummana he's a snake.

Even if you were the leader of the Labour party and wanted to put your views and thoughts ahead on Brexit?

Of course you would.

 

[clint van damme]

Even if you were the leader of the Labour party and wanted to put your views and thoughts ahead on Brexit?

Of course you would.

The meeting was a waste of time as confirmed by Vince cable.
The independents are a bunch of ego maniacs who should have had the bollocks to resign when they quit their parties.
I get the general point your driving at but like I say, I'd be quite happy to have another leader with the similar policies but is there a candidate?

 

[Astute]

The meeting was a waste of time as confirmed by Vince cable.
The independents are a bunch of ego maniacs who should have had the bollocks to resign when they quit their parties.
I get the general point your driving at but like I say, I'd be quite happy to have another leader with the similar policies but is there a candidate?

Starmer has been the one for me for a long time. He had a successful career before going into politics. He isn't in politics for the money or to have a career. He always worked to help people in need as a barrister. And he was also DPP and Head of the Crown Prosecution Service.

 

[shmmeee]

Starmer has been the one for me for a long time. He had a successful career before going into politics. He isn't in politics for the money or to have a career. He always worked to help people in need as a barrister. And he was also DPP and Head of the Crown Prosecution Service.

I’m here for Kier, but he’s pretty bland and has no real policy platform to speak of. Also he’s been pretty anonymous on Brexit (though partly because of Corbyns strategy TBF).

There really is a talent drought in politics at the moment. I voted Corbyn because I align with his politics (and the rest were as inspiring as a talk on data protection methods), then I voted Smith because Corbyn is a fucking terrible leader and the good policies aren’t even his babies (he’s all about mental foreign policy). If it wasn’t for the baggage I’d go for McDonnell for his politics, but I doubt he’d do any better than Corbyn with voters.

Right now, weirdly, the only MP I’d be happy to see in No 10 is Ken Clarke. So often seems like the only adult in the room. Sadly he’s in the mental party.

Jess Phillips has grown on me, would be an interesting outside bet.

 

[tisza]

Socially liberal/identity politics/SJW crap focusing on “social justice” rather than economic justice. Being anti-police and anti-military. Left wing social authoritarianism stuff. The Dems in the states have a similar problem.

UKIP collapsed because of the referendum. Before that, there was quite a debate in the party over stuff like privatising the NHS for example. They’re an alt-right meme party now not a serious party so pretty irrelevant.

As for polls: How popular are the parties’ manifesto policies? | YouGov

First result on google. Last elections policies. Take out the immigration stuff and all the economic stuff (even from the Tories) that’s popular is left wing (more money for NHS, raise NMW etc) and there’s a good argument the left wing position economically on immigration should be against it.

Here’s another from a couple of months ago on Corbyns policies specifically: Eurotrack: Corbyn’s policies popular in Europe and UK | YouGov


And an older article on Green Party policies;
If people voted for policies, the Green Party would win the next

Missing the point.
Not disputing the popularity (or indeed quality) of some of these policies.
What I fail to see is the evidence in falling popularity of policies just because people found out they are Corbyn's.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Zzz

Sounds like you don't have a clue about John Smith and what he did for Labour. This is what we should be looking for. Corbyn wasn't even fit to clean the shoes of the man.

John Smith would have led us to a decent world | John McTernan

So what do you think of the man now?

You're being a dick even when people are trying to agree with you.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

You see this is what people who've never negotiated a deal don't get. They swallow Guardian garbage like 'cliff edge' and 'crash out' without understanding that the best way to get a great deal, a close trading relationship, is to walk away.

No deal = great deal.

Based on what?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

May has refused point blank to renegotiate her red lines either with our sovereign parliament or the EU. Where’s her negotiation?

Maybe she did that because the EU made it absolutely clear their red lines were absolutely unmoveable...so she said & did the same?

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[skybluetony176]

Maybe she did that because the EU made it absolutely clear their red lines were absolutely unmoveable...so she said & did the same?

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It’s got more to do with pandering to a minority in her party I would think. She was up against prominent leavers in the leadership contest who all pulled out leaving her to take the job unchallenged. I don’t know but I suspect that the red lines were agreed as part of that process. It certainly explains why she won’t negotiate them with parliament or the more centralist elements in her own party.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Maybe she did that because the EU made it absolutely clear their red lines were absolutely unmoveable...so she said & did the same?

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Their red lines are written into a series of treaties that form the basis of the EU that cannot just be undone.

May's red lines are a mixture of pet projects of hers and pandering to various factions in the Tory party.

 

[fernandopartridge]

You see this is what people who've never negotiated a deal don't get. They swallow Guardian garbage like 'cliff edge' and 'crash out' without understanding that the best way to get a great deal, a close trading relationship, is to walk away.

No deal = great deal.

You're conflating a political negotiation with somebody trying to buy something in an open market, nonsensical tbh.

 

[fernandopartridge]

 

[SkyblueBazza]

It’s got more to do with pandering to a minority in her party I would think. She was up against prominent leavers in the leadership contest who all pulled out leaving her to take the job unchallenged. I don’t know but I suspect that the red lines were agreed as part of that process. It certainly explains why she won’t negotiate them with parliament or the more centralist elements in her own party.

Or maybe pandering to the noisy minority remain vote camp

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[SkyblueBazza]

Their red lines are written into a series of treaties that form the basis of the EU that cannot just be undone.

May's red lines are a mixture of pet projects of hers and pandering to various factions in the Tory party.

They have foind it easy enough to change things & allow an extension when the chips are down...so I feel sure it can actually be easily undone

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[dancers lance]

Their red lines are written into a series of treaties that form the basis of the EU that cannot just be undone.

May's red lines are a mixture of pet projects of hers and pandering to various factions in the Tory party.

I'm not sure what the final outcome will be, but I know the EU have had to play a very hard line, they can't afford to show any weakness to the UK because that would undermine the whole project. I do know that (even though they are trying to hide it well) that the EU is considered to be on the brink of recession by leading financial experts with Germany considered to go very soon. A no deal brexit would be disastrous for them so I think some last minute concessions will be made to force through an agreement.