Worth more liquidated? (1 Viewer)

[chiefdave]

Interesting, and worrying, conversation today with a chap at work involved in land purchases.

Regarding Ryton it was suggested that if there isn't buyer willing to purchase at a price SISU deem acceptable they could skip admin and go straight for liquidation and get a decent amount of money back.

The thinking was the land at Ryton is worth around £8m with permission for housing. If the club no longer exists there is no longer anything in the way of granting that planning permission. What was then suggested that, at a relatively low outlay, the site could be readied for building by having gas, electric etc ready to go which is was suggested could raise the value to around £20m.

Just relaying the conversation but if there is anything close to the truth why would SISU walk for less than they could get out of liquidation?

 

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[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Interesting, and worrying, conversation today with a chap at work involved in land purchases.

Regarding Ryton it was suggested that if there isn't buyer willing to purchase at a price SISU deem acceptable they could skip admin and go straight for liquidation and get a decent amount of money back.

The thinking was the land at Ryton is worth around £8m with permission for housing. If the club no longer exists there is no longer anything in the way of granting that planning permission. What was then suggested that, at a relatively low outlay, the site could be readied for building by having gas, electric etc ready to go which is was suggested could raise the value to around £20m.

Just relaying the conversation but if there is anything close to the truth why would SISU walk for less than they could get out of liquidation?

Unless of course somebody offered them 8 million

 

[italiahorse]

More like £2M for a plot like that going for housing.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Unless of course somebody offered them 8 million

Tell you what, if anybody did do that I'd question their sanity first out.

Then I'd be lookinbg very carefully at what was in it for them...

 

[Colin Steins Smile]

Interesting, and worrying, conversation today with a chap at work involved in land purchases.

Regarding Ryton it was suggested that if there isn't buyer willing to purchase at a price SISU deem acceptable they could skip admin and go straight for liquidation and get a decent amount of money back.

The thinking was the land at Ryton is worth around £8m with permission for housing. If the club no longer exists there is no longer anything in the way of granting that planning permission. What was then suggested that, at a relatively low outlay, the site could be readied for building by having gas, electric etc ready to go which is was suggested could raise the value to around £20m.

Just relaying the conversation but if there is anything close to the truth why would SISU walk for less than they could get out of liquidation?

Interesting point and SISU's strategy will be to maximise returns, so if you are correct, then the current business model of selling assets and charging management fees, etc until the tipping point when the company can be wound up makes sense.

 

[chiefdave]

More like £2M for a plot like that going for housing.

Maybe he's got his figures wrong then which would be good news for us. He said to me £2m without planning, £8m with and in the region of £20m if the land was ready to start building on with utilities in place.

 

[oldskyblue58]

made the same point a couple weeks back CD.

SISU do not need to go to administration what purpose would it serve them?

If CCFC liquidated then ARVO sweep up all the assets including Ryton probably at a low value (creating losses) and can sit on Ryton until they (a) get use changed/accepted (b) a good price

If they apply to court for liquidation then what court is going to say CCFC is viable ...... massive debts, falling incomes, disaffected customer base, no base, no long term agreements, etc etc. The process could be quite quick, leaving little time or opportunity for rescue.

Right now it is just one of a number of scenarios though

One thing they would miss out on is the add on payments that might be due on player sales, unless of course ARVO retain claim on those somehow.

A crunch time could be this summer when there is little income, few players to sell, hugely reduced season ticket sales etc .............

Also was TF so glum this weekend because likely relegation (and perhaps fan troubles) has pushed potential new owners out the door ....... there has been something going on behind the scenes it seems to me .....

 

[NorthernWisdom]

One thing they would miss out on is the add on payments that might be due on player sales,

Assuming we haven't taken a deal on them already, to get cash into the club right now...

 

[Captain Dart]

Also was TF so glum this weekend because likely relegation (and perhaps fan troubles) has pushed potential new owners out the door ....... there has been something going on behind the scenes it seems to me .....

They need to be transparent.

 

[Otis]

Tell you what, if anybody did do that I'd question their sanity first out.

Then I'd be lookinbg very carefully at what was in it for them...

And I'm more than happy to be subjected to any clinical and psychological tests you wish to perform upon my person.

 

[clint van damme]

I've often asked why would they liquidate? That's a valid and worrying reason.

 

[Astute]

made the same point a couple weeks back CD.

SISU do not need to go to administration what purpose would it serve them?

If CCFC liquidated then ARVO sweep up all the assets including Ryton probably at a low value (creating losses) and can sit on Ryton until they (a) get use changed/accepted (b) a good price

If they apply to court for liquidation then what court is going to say CCFC is viable ...... massive debts, falling incomes, disaffected customer base, no base, no long term agreements, etc etc. The process could be quite quick, leaving little time or opportunity for rescue.

Right now it is just one of a number of scenarios though

One thing they would miss out on is the add on payments that might be due on player sales, unless of course ARVO retain claim on those somehow.

A crunch time could be this summer when there is little income, few players to sell, hugely reduced season ticket sales etc .............

Also was TF so glum this weekend because likely relegation (and perhaps fan troubles) has pushed potential new owners out the door ....... there has been something going on behind the scenes it seems to me .....

I am sure that if we are liquidated all players are free to move where they want as all contracts are null and void. Nobody is allowed to hold on to players registration. They are with the football club. And if liquidated there is no football club.

 

[chiefdave]

One thing they would miss out on is the add on payments that might be due on player sales, unless of course ARVO retain claim on those somehow.

We don't really know what is outstanding or how likely it is to ever be paid do we? Maybe that's why some of the rumoured fees have been lower than expected, lower total fee but pay it all up front.

 

[Astute]

Maybe he's got his figures wrong then which would be good news for us. He said to me £2m without planning, £8m with and in the region of £20m if the land was ready to start building on with utilities in place.

The only difference between the club being a going concern and being liquidated for the sale of Ryton is that if liquidated they don't have to replace Ryton. And by the look of the information so far they can rent a training ground.

 

[mrtrench]

Tell you what, if anybody did do that I'd question their sanity first out.

Then I'd be lookinbg very carefully at what was in it for them...

If it's true that the land is worth that then the club is worth at least 8 million

 

[clint van damme]

I am sure that if we are liquidated all players are free to move where they want as all contracts are null and void. Nobody is allowed to hold on to players registration. They are with the football club. And if liquidated there is no football club.

every cloud!

 

[NorthernWisdom]

If it's true that the land is worth that then the club is worth at least 8 million

So my second point holds, no?

 

[Monkeyface]

They need to be transparent.

Was just going to say if they just announced the club is for sale they could stop all this.

 

[oldskyblue58]

If it's true that the land is worth that then the club is worth at least 8 million

The club, which is currently otium, still has massive debts that remain larger than the total assets even if Ryton were valued at 8m

so the value of the present set up is still £nil

 

[Nick]

Was just going to say if they just announced the club is for sale they could stop all this.

How would it stop anything?

 

[oldskyblue58]

I am sure that if we are liquidated all players are free to move where they want as all contracts are null and void. Nobody is allowed to hold on to players registration. They are with the football club. And if liquidated there is no football club.

yes but my guess is that SISU/ARVO might seek to argue that the right to those future payments become ARVO's by virtue of the debenture. Would be up to the FA/FL to decide whether they continue or perish with liquidation...... and then the courts

all academic really and frankly unimportant....... safety of the club first and right now I do not feel it is safe at all

 

[Nick]

yes but my guess is that SISU/ARVO might seek to argue that the right to those future payments become ARVO's by virtue of the debenture. Would be up to the FA/FL to decide whether they continue or perish with liquidation...... and then the courts

all academic really and frankly unimportant....... safety of the club first and right now I do not feel it is safe at all

If thats what they are planning its almost worth letting them have Ryton to go.

 

[davebart]

What I cannot work out is what they are waiting for? They can't think the value of the meagre assets is going to go up surely?
They must think their best chance is to find a buyer.

 

[chiefdave]

If thats what they are planning its almost worth letting them have Ryton to go.

Suggested similar when fan ownership was being discussed. The Trust could put together an offer that involves the club setting up their training ground (including academy) at Warwick Uni. Sure there would be some funding / finance available to add something similar to the Sky Blue Lodge to the planned Uni facilities. Then SISU leave with Ryton to sell.

Don't think we can get where we need to be long term with fan ownership but I think it could work as essentially a middle man. Come in, stabilise the club, get the fans / local businesses back and get things ready to sell on a few years down the line.

 

[mrtrench]

The club, which is currently otium, still has massive debts that remain larger than the total assets even if Ryton were valued at 8m

so the value of the present set up is still £nil

True, I was referring to a sale without inheritance of debt. If sisu doesn't write off the debt the club has a value less than zero.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I think anyone coming in would do it via a new company, would buy the assets as they are currently used and have to take on the football creditors. That net price is not going to be much.

Ryton might be worth £8m with planning permission but it isn't worth £8m if your only interest is buying the club and need a training ground

 

[Captain Dart]

I think Ryton is gone, ARVO will take it and leave the new owners to sort out the mess.

 

[skybluetony176]

yes but my guess is that SISU/ARVO might seek to argue that the right to those future payments become ARVO's by virtue of the debenture. Would be up to the FA/FL to decide whether they continue or perish with liquidation...... and then the courts

all academic really and frankly unimportant....... safety of the club first and right now I do not feel it is safe at all

Is the debenture secured against all the clubs assets? I always thought it was just specifically Ryton.

 

[Monkeyface]

How would it stop anything?

Apologies, maybe I wasn't transparent myself. I was referring to OSB58 post about something going on behind the scenes, and how the protests at Northampton may have influenced them. I'm pretty confident that if Joy Sepalla said the club is up for sale the protests would stop, or at least be more of strongly worded letter type!

 

[fernandopartridge]

Is the debenture secured against all the clubs assets? I always thought it was just specifically Ryton.

ARVO hold preference shares in OEG which give them first dibs following liquidation on all of OEG's assets (it doesn't have to be a full liquidation either, it could be a sale following liquidation or just a sale i think)

 

[Astute]

yes but my guess is that SISU/ARVO might seek to argue that the right to those future payments become ARVO's by virtue of the debenture. Would be up to the FA/FL to decide whether they continue or perish with liquidation...... and then the courts

all academic really and frankly unimportant....... safety of the club first and right now I do not feel it is safe at all

It goes much deeper than the FA and FL though. There were a couple of high profile cases. So they would also have to take on UEFA and FIFA. Third party ownership is not allowed. And clubs are not allowed to do a deal with third party ownership.

 

[Brylowes]

Have said many times before, if liquidation isn't their ultimate aim then you'd have to question
Their sanity, every decision they make drags us further down. It would be preposterous to
Believe they make so many bad decisions, they are carefully following a plan and if that plan
Includes liquidation, then their decisions actually make sense, which worries me a lot.

 

[oldskyblue58]

ARVO hold preference shares in OEG which give them first dibs following liquidation on all of OEG's assets (it doesn't have to be a full liquidation either, it could be a sale following liquidation or just a sale i think)

The charge comes in before the Preference share rights fp The pref shares would get what was left after that then the ordinary shares after that

There is a fixed and floating charge over all assets including Ryton in favour of ARVO dated 30-12-2013. The fixed part is over the freehold and intellectual rights of Otium, the floating part over everything else

The preference shares are divided in to two types A & B. The A preference shares take precedence over the B (ie A come first). None of the Preference shares are redeemable but they carry no voting rights either. The preference shares could be a barrier to sale and carry rights to dividend that accumulates

What is clear is that the SISU investors take second place to ARVO. Therefore any plan and any sale or settlement would need to address the needs of ARVO first and foremost.

The deed was signed by Dermot Coleman for the lender ARVO, and for the chargor Otium by T Fisher, witnessed by L Deering in both cases

Correspondence to Otium to be sent c/o Tim Fisher 1 Red Place London (the old SISU Capital office)

 

[fernandopartridge]

The charge comes in before the Preference share rights fp The pref shares would get what was left after that then the ordinary shares after that

There is a fixed and floating charge over all assets including Ryton in favour of ARVO dated 30-12-2013. The fixed part is over the freehold and intellectual rights of Otium, the floating part over everything else

The preference shares are divided in to two types A & B. The A preference shares take precedence over the B (ie A come first). None of the Preference shares are redeemable but they carry no voting rights either. The preference shares could be a barrier to sale and carry rights to dividend that accumulates

What is clear is that the SISU investors take second place to ARVO. Therefore any plan and any sale or settlement would need to address the needs of ARVO first and foremost.

The deed was signed by Dermot Coleman for the lender ARVO, and for the chargor Otium by T Fisher, witnessed by L Deering in both cases

Correspondence to Otium to be sent c/o Tim Fisher 1 Red Place London (the old SISU Capital office)

Thanks. If only SISU were good at developing such complex plans to protect and further the interests of the 11 players on the pitch!

 

[Astute]

Thanks. If only SISU were good at developing such complex plans to protect and further the interests of the 11 players on the pitch!

Nothing complex about selling anyone of any value. Or not reinvesting only 20% of funds received.