Womens football (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter We'll_live_and_die
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How many transgender players do you think there are? And how would you suggest the FA verify that?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Have a friend who is a lawyer who specialises in safeguarding. Works on some very high profile cases taking the government and other large organisations to court over safeguarding failures.
They've spent the last couple of weeks studying every detail of the verdict and say its so badly worded and contradicts other areas of law to the point that if and when it gets challenged in court there is a good chance it will fall apart and be deemed completely unenforceable.
They've spent the last couple of weeks studying every detail of the verdict and say its so badly worded and contradicts other areas of law to the point that if and when it gets challenged in court there is a good chance it will fall apart and be deemed completely unenforceable.
oakey
Well-Known Member
No idea. Neither has the FA. That's the point. They don't know and they don't care.
They are the regulating body and it's not up to me or you to suggest how they verify it. If they wanted to take it seriously they could
+ Have a registration process which says,
SEX at BIRTH
MALE
FEMALE
+ Make clear that false pretences will lead to disqualification
To imply this is really difficult is disingenuous. We have had men and women's categories for decades without failing to address imposters.
Olympian Sharron Davies addresses this in her book. They used to do simple cheek swabs ONCE when a swimmer entered a competition. This is a simple, cheap verification for life.
There are many ways to do it. Only the simple belief in fairness is needed.
oakey
Well-Known Member
I don't think a supreme court judgement can be challenged. It would need a change in the law. Only parliament can do that. But we shall see.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
You don't challenge the supreme court judgement, case law is more pertinent. If and when a case reaches court it will be for that court to decide how to interpret and apply the judgement. That then becomes the reference for future cases.
What they are saying is that the wording of the judgement makes it very hard to enforce when you're dealing with a real world case.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
But are we suggesting DNA tests for everyone?
Are you saying that at your walking football people should be forced to do these tests before being allowed to play? Seems like a huge cost for what is effectively a kickaround.
Or in other words, a self-ID system? I assume players who mis-state their gender when they’re registered are already disqualified from the relevant competition.
I don’t know, if you’re going to complain that the FA’s current verification system is insufficient then it seems reasonable to ask what the alternative should be. The idea that the FA is going to do genetic cheek swabs for the 11 million people who play football in this country doesn’t sound like a “simple” solution to a problem when no-one even seems able to define how many people it affects.
oakey
Well-Known Member
The logic of having categories suggests they include some and exclude others. How does it work with age categories? If we can do it for ages we can do it for sex - if we choose to.
Alternatively we can make spurious arguments about it all being too difficult and open to challenges and waiting for statutory guidance blah blah blah.
I am actually quite shocked at the lengths some people want to go to in order to defend this indefensible and illegal discrimination against females
Alternatively we can make spurious arguments about it all being too difficult and open to challenges and waiting for statutory guidance blah blah blah.
I am actually quite shocked at the lengths some people want to go to in order to defend this indefensible and illegal discrimination against females
Grendel
Well-Known Member
It can't be challenged - seems the lawyer does not understand what a Supreme Court is
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
But how do those age restrictions get implemented at the very amateur levels we're talking about? By self-ID, usually filling in a form. I never had to provide my birth certificate to prove I could play in the U12's, it was just written on the registration form. I know that because we registered a kid who was a year older with a fake DoB. We also once played a team at U14 level where pretty much the entire opposition were taller than our near 6ft tall manager. 2 of them had full beards! When we saw them we assumed there'd been a mix up and they were an older age group, or even the men's team, but apparently not.
All that would have taken was sending in a document and them ticking a box or photocopying it. This would need labs involved.
For the professional levels by all means have DNA swabs or whatever as proof, but for a kickaround at the Powerleague it's just over the top and adds in a ridiculous amount of time and expense for that level.
oakey
Well-Known Member
I expect people to obey the law and tell the truth on official registration forms. If they do not there should be a system for expelling them.
I'm sure if you entered a 14 yo child in the under 12s you risk being reported, questioned and the child will be told to leave and apply to the correct category.
I'm sure if you entered a 14 yo child in the under 12s you risk being reported, questioned and the child will be told to leave and apply to the correct category.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I agree, but that's just the same system you're complaining about now. Fill in a form and hope/assume people will tell the truth.
oakey
Well-Known Member
I'm not complaining about having a form. I want a simple 'sex at birth' form, with the expectation that people tell the truth and can verify the truth, if required. I may be naive, but I expect people to obey laws or campaign to change them. I also expect punishment if I break laws. I have zero sympathy for cheats and lawbreakers.
I think there is a suggestion that lots of people will ignore the law, enter the wrong category and kick up a fuss if they are disqualified. I also fear that anyone who tries to enforce the law will be vilified.
This is lawlessness and must be resisted not celebrated.
oakey
Well-Known Member
In addition there is the insurance angle. If you enter false information the insurance is invalidated. I have no doubt that this is why the FA and ECB acted so quickly. If they break the law and allow males in the female category they are open to being sued, particularly if a female player is injured.
This is literally what the FA are already doing when asking players to specify if they are transgender, but you said this was the FA being disingenuous and unreliable.
oakey
Well-Known Member
They have not cared about protecting women or used a clear exception in the 2010 act which allowed them to keep women's football for females. They have been told for 15 years that they are guilty of sex discrimination so I don't think we can trust them now. Only fear of being sued moves them.
www.legislation.gov.uk
Put simply they could and should have excluded males from the women's game all along. They chose not to.
Equality Act 2010 - Explanatory Notes
Put simply they could and should have excluded males from the women's game all along. They chose not to.
Considering you openly admit to having no clue how many people were even affected by this policy, and considering that your proposed solutions are near-identical to the long-standing FA policy, I find this level of anger and mistrust to be quite surprising.They have not cared about protecting women or used a clear exception in the 2010 act which allowed them to keep women's football for females. They have been told for 15 years that they are guilty of sex discrimination so I don't think we can trust them now. Only fear of being sued moves them.
Equality Act 2010 - Explanatory Notes
Put simply they could and should have excluded males from the women's game all along. They chose not to.
oakey
Well-Known Member
You expect me to know how many people are playing football in the wrong category in England or expect me to simply believe the FA? That's plainly ridiculous.
They make no real attempt to keep accurate records so their figure of 30 is just plucked out of the air.
The FA has not proposed any solutions to the problems they have created by not gatekeeping the women's game and I have every right to mistrust them.
They have had to be forced to make these changes.
Why are you surprised that sex discrimination angers somebody. I am disappointed that it doesn't anger you.
Do you believe in equal opportunities for women and girls, or not? If you do then you should be angry too, because the FA has failed to provide fair opportunities for female players.
They make no real attempt to keep accurate records so their figure of 30 is just plucked out of the air.
The FA has not proposed any solutions to the problems they have created by not gatekeeping the women's game and I have every right to mistrust them.
They have had to be forced to make these changes.
Why are you surprised that sex discrimination angers somebody. I am disappointed that it doesn't anger you.
Do you believe in equal opportunities for women and girls, or not? If you do then you should be angry too, because the FA has failed to provide fair opportunities for female players.
You haven’t given any good reason why we shouldn’t believe the FA’s numbers. Indeed, you’ve gone on to propose a verification system that was near-identical to what the FA was already doing.
The suggestion that I don’t believe in equal opportunities for women just because I don’t agree with you on this point is totally unnecessary.
oakey
Well-Known Member
If the FA has a verification process why are any males playing in the women's game?
This point is crucial for equal opportunities. You seem to believe the FA has somehow innocently allowed males to be playing in the women's game?
Is your position that the FA knew there were X amount of males playing and thought that was okay OR that they couldn't have known? I'm confused.
This point is crucial for equal opportunities. You seem to believe the FA has somehow innocently allowed males to be playing in the women's game?
Is your position that the FA knew there were X amount of males playing and thought that was okay OR that they couldn't have known? I'm confused.
The FA allowed transgender women - around 20 of them, it said - to play women’s football. You’re referring to them as males here but the distinction is significant in this context - now the law has clarified that transgender women should no longer have access to single-sex spaces, the FA is no longer allowing these 20-odd players to continue playing.
I’ve not even criticised this decision, I’m genuinely baffled as to why you’re trying to claim that anyone who doesn’t share your particular view on the FA’s motivations here is somehow opposed to equal opportunities for women.
oakey
Well-Known Member
The reason is that the FA knew it was unfair all along. They were shown the science of male advantage.
They were shown the exemption in S.195 which allowed them to exclude transgender males from the women's category.
Read Sharron Davies' book: Unfair Sport.
Yet they chose the '30' males right to play in their preferred category over the safety, dignity and right to fair sport for the thousands of female players.
On that note I am off to bed as it's after midnight where I am. Goodnight
They were shown the exemption in S.195 which allowed them to exclude transgender males from the women's category.
Read Sharron Davies' book: Unfair Sport.
Yet they chose the '30' males right to play in their preferred category over the safety, dignity and right to fair sport for the thousands of female players.
On that note I am off to bed as it's after midnight where I am. Goodnight
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
A genuine question for you: which group should intersex players take part in?
Well again, I’m not sure you can confidently claim that “thousands of female players” were affected, while still maintaining that you have no idea how many transgender women were actually allowed to play.
Considering the FA had recently insisted that those trans players manage their hormone levels in order to play, plus undergo match observations to check they weren’t posing a risk to other players, I find the argument that the FA were indifferent to these concerns a little hard to believe.
oakey
Well-Known Member
Genuine answer.
Each governing body should take expert advice from human biologists and then make a ruling. It is likely those with any 'male advantage' would be barred from entering the women's category.
For example, Caster Semenya is now barred from competing. Seb Coe has vowed to ensure World Athletics protects the women's category.
oakey
Well-Known Member
I think everyone is affected if category breaches are allowed. In this case it would no longer be women's football it would be mixed. A female player would never know when she may encounter a transgender player and she would risk suspension and ridicule if she spoke up. '30' now, who knows how many in future? Some women and girls have already dropped out and many more would in the future.
The FA insisted on the testosterone reduction. This was always a ridiculous compromise as it does not remove male advantage, only reduce it. They failed to uphold the law and listened to poor legal advice.
Rugby and other sports managed to do the right thing years ago.
If you find this hard to believe that's up to you.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
So sort of related to this, if a trans man rocks up to a women’s team, following the legal ruling, and to all intents and purposes presents as male, who verifies that they were born female?
OffenhamSkyBlue
Well-Known Member
... until and unless that court's decision is appealed to a higher court (including the Supreme Court). However, it would be a brave judge in a minor court who contradicted the rule of the Supreme Court, and an idiot prosecutor or defence barrister who didn't capitalise on the ruling. The Supreme Court *has* set legal precedent, at least for the time being.
I saw last week that a former judge, who happens to be a trans-woman, plans to take the case to the European Court of Human Rights. Thankfully, UK Courts are not obliged to take any notice of any decisions made by it.
oakey
Well-Known Member
That's up to the governing body. It's the reason they exist.
“Who knows how many” is indeed the very question I’m hoping you can answer for me. But if you refuse to even consider the FA’s own data to be reliable and will only speak in grand hypotheticals, then I’m afraid it’s difficult to share your level of outrage. Clearly you think that makes me some kind of misogynist.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
So in the mean time, what is the FA’s burden of proof in such a case?
oakey
Well-Known Member
Ask them, not me. If they can't maintain a single sex category without clear rules then they are failing to offer fair competition.