Why I think League 1 is a must for us... (12 Viewers)

dongonzalos · Mar 13, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
We were a poorly financed top tier team Now we're a poorly funded second tier side.

The problem with memory, evidently, is that it gives rise to erroneous quotes. By checking back and referring to facts, I can see the financial reality of the situation as opposed to your 'recollection'.

I can see Gould being appointed on 01.05.83, and in the season 82/83, Daly, Kaiser and Blythe leave. In the following season 83/84, There's a real exodus - Gillespe, Thomas, Sealey, Hateley, Hendrie. Four of those look like painful departures. Does this sound about right?

But I see those four departures, and try and understand their significance to the team at the time, but equally look at the departures we've seen in the last 12 months, namely Westwod, Turner, Gunnarrson and King. I suggest their importance to our new team is as significant ad the departures in the '80s.

However, to hark back to the point I've tried to make earlier, I can also see players being signed back then - Ashley Grimes was a £200K player, and other values I've cited earlier. Now you may tell me they're poor players. History appears to back that assertion, but some money was spent. Admittedly less than was grossed income, but decent value players were signed and cash expended. As I keep on eluding to, index link those values into today's currency and we're talking about players in the hundreds of thousands of pounds bracket and above.

That is the luxury that's not been afforded the current manager; whatever you think of him. And that why I stand by the original statement I made, even if you readily refute it as you seem to be able to sit as judge and jury and dismiss me as I didn't take in every game - home and away - of the '75 season!?!

I have to say that is my point. I understand that we have to sell players and we have to be financially prudent. However we should not sell a player till a suitable player is lined up as a replacement.
If we sell a millionpound player have a decent free transfer lined up if you cant get hime then spend up to half a million. You still make a profit but you do not jeapordise the future of the club. keep doing this till the books balance and the tide turns.
Dont sell without having a replacement. Cause the team to get relegated and exsperate the problem.
People will say conspiracy theorist but i my book there can only be one logical reason why SISU would take such action........

sly_old_fox · Mar 13, 2012

when a team is relegated to a lower tier it is imperative that they are promoted back as soon as possilbe, or else they soon become settled at that level. see both Leic & Cov, 1990s established prem teams, ten years on established Champ teams. When Lesta were relegated 5 years ago we had the luxury of a wealthy owner and a very good manager (at that level) so the year spent in the third tier became an enjoyable 'holiday', traveling to places we hadn't been to for a very long time or never been before, but it was only enjoyable because we were winning. Even though we had a strong squad (It was the size & depth of our squad that gave us the edge) very few games were a walk over. Once a team spends more than 1 season in a division they begin to become established at that level, thats why Leeds & Forest only managed to scrape their way out after spending 3 years in Lg 1.

SydneySkyBlue · Mar 13, 2012

dongonzalos said:
For me if we had kept the Juke and signed Nimely and Norwood. It would have been a better possibility. Now it all depends on people staying fit and a bit of luck. However if you have such a bare thread squad like we have if you have the likes of Clingan, Cody, Clarke, Wood, McPake injured for long periods you are screwed and Fat boy refusing to act like a professional.

We needed 4 more players of the quality of Juke, Nimely, Norwood and one other we lost one of them and got the other two in January.

Dongonzalos, agree with you 100%.

If you'd told me the above in the summer, having already lost King and Westwood, I'd be impressed that we were only 4 points a drift at this stage.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 13, 2012

Do you know, if you really drill down into it, it becomes hugely depressing. Thorn's been with the club for three years. We started off by the big sell off of 2009/10. Dann, Fox, Best all left, as did players like Mifsud, Doyle, Ward and Mckenzie; bringing in circa. £7.4m. Thorn, who would have been scouting at the time found some decent loans to patch things up - Stead, Madine, van Aanholt, Barnett, but we don't tie a single player down to stay with us.

The next year, 2010/11 we at least spend a little money on 2 players - Jutkiewitz, who Thorn scouted for Evertom signs, as does Keogh for £88K; but beyond that it's 'frees' all the way - ROD, Platt, Carsley, O'Halloran, etc.

Then this season, into Thorn's tenure proper, we lose 9 players close-season, including Westwood, King and Gunnarsson, then sell Turner as soon as he's fit; and then top that by selling our leading scorer, Jutkiewitz. To compensate, Thorn's given s small value to spend on McDonald - who's unfortunately been unfit (which happens in football) and the loans of Gardner, Nimely and Norwood.

The quality that's left this club in the last three seasons, without replacement, is wholly unsustainable

Grendel · Mar 13, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
The problem with memory, evidently, is that it gives rise to erroneous quotes. By checking back and referring to facts, I can see the financial reality of the situation as opposed to your 'recollection'.

I can see Gould being appointed on 01.05.83, and in the season 82/83, Daly, Kaiser and Blythe leave. In the following season 83/84, There's a real exodus - Gillespe, Thomas, Sealey, Hateley, Hendrie. Four of those look like painful departures. Does this sound about right?

But I see those four departures, and try and understand their significance to the team at the time, but equally look at the departures we've seen in the last 12 months, namely Westwod, Turner, Gunnarrson and King. I suggest their importance to our new team is as significant ad the departures in the '80s.

However, to hark back to the point I've tried to make earlier, I can also see players being signed back then - Ashley Grimes was a £200K player, and other values I've cited earlier. Now you may tell me they're poor players. History appears to back that assertion, but some money was spent. Admittedly less than was grossed income, but decent value players were signed and cash expended. As I keep on eluding to, index link those values into today's currency and we're talking about players in the hundreds of thousands of pounds bracket and above.
!

OK last attempt. The real exodus left the month Gould started the players you refer to left in June although we had sold Thompson in January which was the beginning of the end for Sexton as manager. The money spent on players was a fraction of what was yielded. We sold a player to Liverpool got one back from Lincoln, bought a player from Blackpool to replace a player who a year later was playing for England. Tottenham replacement from Bristol Rovers. Players who were sold were worth massively more than the ones who joined. At to your list Whitton as well. The main point is that we were massive odd on favourites to go down.

3 years before that the failed american investement and the ridiculous all-seater stadium fiasco meant the goalscoring machines of Wallace and Ferguson were moved on and Sexton had to develop his youth players (those you mention) and turn them into a team. Paxman is correct and I am trying to tell you that historically we have been a selling club and these restraints have been there before except then we were in the higher league. The Liverpool game you referred to gained national media exposure it was hailed as one of the upsets of all time.

Even in the early 90's once Butcher has butchered the squad we were left with dire players and no money to re-invest. A striker from Swansea, Steve Morgan, Rennie, Derby all playing in the new Premier League. John Gayle? No doubt you will find an optima stat describing him as a "bustling centre forward with purpose" He wasn't.

This argument has become too protracted. Point is we as a club have historically always sold since the early 70's and there are some examples of mass squad culling.

The argument deployed that we are favourites for the drop seems to be the accepted justification. Well I am glad previous managers didn't take that mantra as gospel we were favourites for relegation 35 times and avoided it for 34 of them - even Don Mackay managed it!

skybluesteve76 · Mar 13, 2012

Being the so called biggest team in the league is very dangerous! As we found when relegated to the championship. Everyone treats it like a one off cup final.
There is no way we will be the biggest team, there are clubs with bigger average attendances, and teams that are more established in that league. If we go down, I think we will struggle just as much as we have done for the last 12 years or however long it's been!

All the best

ccfcway · Mar 13, 2012

biggest team with the biggest empty ground !!!

torchomatic · Mar 13, 2012

I remember that close season very well when Gould had to sign a whole new team. Lower league players yes, not kids. Although you could argue the best of the bunch, Stuart Pearce, had the least experience. Another point is. Football was very different then than it is now. A team like our '87 bunch would never win the Cup now.

Grendel · Mar 13, 2012

torchomatic said:
I remember that close season very well when Gould had to sign a whole new team. Lower league players yes, not kids. Although you could argue the best of the bunch, Stuart Pearce, had the least experience. Another point is. Football was very different then than it is now. A team like our '87 bunch would never win the Cup now.

I agree and the current squad would thrash Gould's team however the point is the task of a Coventry manager is often not an easy one.

We did have a young kid in goal though for half the season and also some real quality youngsters like Andy Spring.

Otis · Mar 13, 2012

It was a bunch of misfits and lower league players that season Gould was in charge. He somehow motivated them into believing they were good. Most of them simply weren't though.

Grendel · Mar 13, 2012

Otis said:
It was a bunch of misfits and lower league players that season Gould was in charge. He somehow motivated them into believing they were good. Most of them simply weren't though.

Exactly my point. Apparently Dave Bamber was a fantastic centre foward and Platnauer a midfield maestro.

Otis · Mar 13, 2012

He had Platnauer playing out of his skin. Bamber too.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 13, 2012

kduffy said:
Exactly my point. Apparently Dave Bamber was a fantastic centre foward and Platnauer a midfield maestro.

You see, yet again, this is where your attitude lets you down. I never stated Bamber was a fantastic centre forward. What I stated was that he was highly regarded at the time he left Blackpool, and has scored 36 in 100 starts; which made him a one-in-three striker, and for whom we paid good money. Platnauer was a promising league three 23 year old who - from midfield - had scored 7 in 24 for Bristol Rovers, and for whom we paid £50K. That's akin to a £500K player now.

When you try and put words into other people's mouths to prove your objective, it negates any semblance of worth in what you try and forward :facepalm:

Grendel · Mar 13, 2012

It was a joke!

Otis · Mar 13, 2012

torchomatic said:
Clingan and Crane will go, but who else? Maybe Keogh. I can't see anyone else leaving.

'Relegation to prove costly if City are to be relegated

Whoever owns Coventry City next season could find themselves having to fund even bigger losses if the club were to relegated at the end of this season.

The Sky Blues currently receive £2.2m in solidarity payments from the Premier League as a Championship club plus the money from the television deals and other deals which brings the figure to the region of £4m.

However, dropping down a division will see these payments drop to around £800,000 for clubs in League One.

City, who will also have to deal with a wage cap which may see top earners.as players wages increase every year, being sold or allowed to leave.

If that wasn't bad enough, the club might have to deal with a drop in season ticket income if supporters decide that they don't want to watch what is basically third division football on a regular basis as well as a decrease in sponsorship due to a lack of television coverage/ media interest.

All these losses will be have to covered by the owners who will be hoping that a return to Championship football will be sooner rather than later.'

Wake up and smell the coffee. Laughable to think only Cranie, Clingan and maybe Keogh will go in the Summer.

covcity4life · Mar 13, 2012

dont wanna go down:facepalm:

Godiva · Mar 13, 2012

Otis said:
'Relegation to prove costly if City are to be relegated

Whoever owns Coventry City next season could find themselves having to fund even bigger losses if the club were to relegated at the end of this season.

The Sky Blues currently receive £2.2m in solidarity payments from the Premier League as a Championship club plus the money from the television deals and other deals which brings the figure to the region of £4m.

However, dropping down a division will see these payments drop to around £800,000 for clubs in League One.

City, who will also have to deal with a wage cap which may see top earners.as players wages increase every year, being sold or allowed to leave.

If that wasn't bad enough, the club might have to deal with a drop in season ticket income if supporters decide that they don't want to watch what is basically third division football on a regular basis as well as a decrease in sponsorship due to a lack of television coverage/ media interest.

All these losses will be have to covered by the owners who will be hoping that a return to Championship football will be sooner rather than later.'

Wake up and smell the coffee. Laughable to think only Cranie, Clingan and maybe Keogh will go in the Summer.

More or less what was posted on this board a few weeks ago:

Godiva said:
In this league FFP dictates that any club can only spend 100% of the clubs income on player wages. As we have been cutting wages all season we should now be one of a handfull clubs who are in compliance. Other clubs will need to reduce wages significantly ... here's looking at you Leicester!

Should we get relegated we can only spend 55% of the clubs income on player wages. Our income would be reduced from approx £8mio (I am guessing here as we don't know the figure yet) this season to approx £5mio in league 1.
In short, we would need to reduce wages to about half of what we currently spend.

It sounds like a dramatic change, and it is. But the rules kick in for all clubs. If we stay up we are ahead of most clubs in terms of compliance - if we get relegated we will need to offload quite a few players, so don't expect us to bounce straight back ... we won't have the team of today.

Oh, and the rules and the basic economics stays unchanged even if there was a change of ownership!

TheSnoz · Mar 13, 2012

Interesting side conversation going on here, Bobby Gould's players and situation and a bit of the Dave Sexton era. It was so bad under Sexton, playing resources wise, that the club brought in a few players from GEC on a regular basis to fulfill reserve team fixtures (and they weren't bad either). This in times when clubs had smaller squads, no 7 players or 5 players sitting on the bench every week. So less spending on wages. Those players that Bobby Gould brought in - the unfashionable players like Plantenauer, kept us in the top division. And later on down the line other players such as Pickering and Morgan did the same. Just a few short years later the so called big name players like Hadji, Bellamy & co didn't. Gould also had one arm tied behind his back, but he rarely gets enough credit. He did well in a city full of lukewarm 'fans.' Part timers.
It isn't 'big star' names that win things generally, it is a team being moulded, getting the right balance.
I don't want us to get relegated either and will be there encouraging them to win a few games. And there next season, whatever happens.
The major reason clubs sell players is to pay bills because not enough supporters come through the turnstiles. Historically that is the case at Coventry. Mortimer, Wallace, Keane, Jutkiewicz, Gibson (Terry and Ian) et al, they would have all been City stalwarts if enough of you lukewarms had got off your arses and actually turned up. But no you all got your excuses (fill this space).

Sub · Mar 13, 2012

yeah it all the fans fault all those players were sold :facepalm::facepalm:

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 13, 2012

TheSnoz said:
Interesting side conversation going on here, Bobby Gould's players and situation and a bit of the Dave Sexton era. It was so bad under Sexton, playing resources wise, that the club brought in a few players from GEC on a regular basis to fulfill reserve team fixtures (and they weren't bad either). This in times when clubs had smaller squads, no 7 players or 5 players sitting on the bench every week. So less spending on wages. Those players that Bobby Gould brought in - the unfashionable players like Plantenauer, kept us in the top division. And later on down the line other players such as Pickering and Morgan did the same. Just a few short years later the so called big name players like Hadji, Bellamy & co didn't. Gould also had one arm tied behind his back, but he rarely gets enough credit. He did well in a city full of lukewarm 'fans.' Part timers.
It isn't 'big star' names that win things generally, it is a team being moulded, getting the right balance.
I don't want us to get relegated either and will be there encouraging them to win a few games. And there next season, whatever happens.
The major reason clubs sell players is to pay bills because not enough supporters come through the turnstiles. Historically that is the case at Coventry. Mortimer, Wallace, Keane, Jutkiewicz, Gibson (Terry and Ian) et al, they would have all been City stalwarts if enough of you lukewarms had got off your arses and actually turned up. But no you all got your excuses (fill this space).

It's a Catch 22 though-you don't usually get big crowds without a successful team on the pitch, though on the other hand, poor attendances especially at lower league level will dictate the club's ability to attract the players it needs for success. For the majority, top flight relegation battles and bottom half finishes clearly weren't enough to draw them to games-fickle? Of course, but what set of football fans isn't.

torchomatic · Mar 13, 2012

Andy "disappear without a trace" Spring? To be honest, he was a grafter, nothing more. Did he end up at Rovers with Gould?

kduffy said:
I agree and the current squad would thrash Gould's team however the point is the task of a Coventry manager is often not an easy one.

We did have a young kid in goal though for half the season and also some real quality youngsters like Andy Spring.

Grendel · Mar 13, 2012

torchomatic said:
Andy "disappear without a trace" Spring? To be honest, he was a grafter, nothing more. Did he end up at Rovers with Gould?

Yes he has been voted there all time worst player. Bot harse but that's life.

torchomatic · Mar 13, 2012

Did I miss the sarcasm then or did you genuinely think he was good for us?

kduffy said:
Yes he has been voted there all time worst player. Bot harse but that's life.

oldskyblue58 · Mar 13, 2012

Going down a division is not going to be easy financially at all.

There is a loss on league money and TV money. There is at least an initial loss of gate money. Say as Otis suggested £4m ? I do not think thats unreasonable.

On the other side I reckon we will save an extra £1m in wages when Eastwood, Clingan & Crainie leave. In terms of losses in the accounts then I reckon the write down of player contracts will be greatly reduced - we dont have many players we actually paid a fee for that we expect to be here next year - the charge in 2010 accounts was £2m. Cashflow however is greatly affected and that has always been the key to the business.

There will be player sales - there has to be. we can complain all we like but CCFC has to wheel and deal. Sell at top dollar buy at bargain price. Maybe sell one of our rising young stars, dont want that but given choice between club or no club then realism kicks in.

The club depends on good performance next year. Can we improve the gates overall in League 1. ? Only way is to be successful on the pitch - right now I dont have much faith in that. However for every 1000 increase in average gate above this season income increases by £360k - that is the key to cashflow. Good luck with that then

Of course we may get bought - all problems solved ........ really? Will have same issues to deal with wont they ? Big money signings have big wages = losses unless results and crowds significantly improve. For example Freddy cost £1.2m on what £10k pw ..... gate has to increase by about 1400 on average to finance it doesnt sound much but that is on top of the gate increase required to breakeven. Say losses were only £2m then thats average increase in gates of 5500 just to break even before you add to wage structure with big signings.

the finances are important to any owner, and are now in focus with the League under the FFP rules. It is no longer about just throwing money at it. White knight or no white knight.

It can be done, but am not betting my mortgage on it. Its going to be a rocky road over next 2 years

dongonzalos · Mar 13, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
Going down a division is not going to be easy financially at all.

There is a loss on league money and TV money. There is at least an initial loss of gate money. Say as Otis suggested £4m ? I do not think thats unreasonable.

On the other side I reckon we will save an extra £1m in wages when Eastwood, Clingan & Crainie leave. In terms of losses in the accounts then I reckon the write down of player contracts will be greatly reduced - we dont have many players we actually paid a fee for that we expect to be here next year - the charge in 2010 accounts was £2m. Cashflow however is greatly affected and that has always been the key to the business.

There will be player sales - there has to be. we can complain all we like but CCFC has to wheel and deal. Sell at top dollar buy at bargain price. Maybe sell one of our rising young stars, dont want that but given choice between club or no club then realism kicks in.

The club depends on good performance next year. Can we improve the gates overall in League 1. ? Only way is to be successful on the pitch - right now I dont have much faith in that. However for every 1000 increase in average gate above this season income increases by £360k - that is the key to cashflow. Good luck with that then

Of course we may get bought - all problems solved ........ really? Will have same issues to deal with wont they ? Big money signings have big wages = losses unless results and crowds significantly improve. For example Freddy cost £1.2m on what £10k pw ..... gate has to increase by about 1400 on average to finance it doesnt sound much but that is on top of the gate increase required to breakeven. Say losses were only £2m then thats average increase in gates of 5500 just to break even before you add to wage structure with big signings.

the finances are important to any owner, and are now in focus with the League under the FFP rules. It is no longer about just throwing money at it. White knight or no white knight.

It can be done, but am not betting my mortgage on it. Its going to be a rocky road over next 2 years

You make some excellent points. However why do SISU not come out and explain things like this. That is if your opinion is correct.

Imagine if this was the case and they came out and said it exactly as above.

I think Cov fans would have a lot of respect for what they are doing and would get behind it a bit.

The fact that they dont come out and engage and explain suggests to me that there maybe they have something else up their sleeves

oldskyblue58 · Mar 13, 2012

Do you honestly think that anyone would listen to what they actually say ..... or even believe it.

They should have communicated from the start, told it like it is etc.... they didnt .......... trouble is now if they do it is going to stir up some much rubbish and I can understand why nothing is said. It is in reality only what previous owners did yet some on here think it is a new phenomenum, clearly we were never in the loop with BR or GR and sure as hell were never told the truth.

That said.......Wasnt it Freud (i stand to be corrected) who said something like "sometimes a chair is exactly what it seems to be.... a chair" Some people choose to ignore the possibility that what TF, SISU etc say is actually true. Got to keep an open mind I think.

Godiva · Mar 13, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
Do you honestly think that anyone would listen to what they actually say ..... or even believe it.

They should have communicated from the start, told it like it is etc.... they didnt .......... trouble is now if they do it is going to stir up some much rubbish and I can understand why nothing is said. It is in reality only what previous owners did yet some on here think it is a new phenomenum, clearly we were never in the loop with BR or GR and sure as hell were never told the truth.

That said.......Wasnt it Freud (i stand to be corrected) who said something like "sometimes a chair is exactly what it seems to be.... a chair" Some people choose to ignore the possibility that what TF, SISU etc say is actually true. Got to keep an open mind I think.

I think old Sigmund said 'cigar', but who cares

oldskyblue58 · Mar 13, 2012

I think you are right Godiva

dongonzalos · Mar 13, 2012

Yes it would be nice to believe what they are saying, what are they actually saying BTW?

TheSnoz · Mar 13, 2012

Sub, you're nearly there, all those 'fans' who don't turn up.

Grendel · Mar 13, 2012

torchomatic said:
Did I miss the sarcasm then or did you genuinely think he was good for us?

I would say he was about as good as Peter hormansrhuck - not very.

torchomatic · Mar 13, 2012

Ah, I'm with you there. What about Graham Withey?

kduffy said:
I would say he was about as good as Peter hormansrhuck - not very.

Grendel · Mar 13, 2012

Yes I referred to him in a previous post when someone was suggesting the squad looked quite strong. Awful. Remember seeing him at villa one year and the poor guy was well out of it.

torchomatic · Mar 13, 2012

Sorry, hadn't read that. He was pretty poor. We seem to remember the Pearces and Peakes rather than the Witheys of Goulds era.

Grendel · Mar 13, 2012

torchomatic said:
Sorry, hadn't read that. He was pretty poor. We seem to remember the Pearces and Peakes rather than the Witheys of Goulds era.

Or indeed the midfield general that was Martin Jol.

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