Why I think League 1 is a must for us... (1 Viewer)

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Yes it is mischief but only in response to people like Rich who keep citing we only have crap players. You have to admit that then is the obvious response. Honest view is he probably is a good a scout as we are likely to get.

Still guarded praise when you actually look back at who he's scouted. How valuable in recent years have Arteta, Cahill and Lescott been to Everton?

 

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[Grendel]

Still guarded praise when you actually look back at who he's scouted. How valuable in recent years have Arteta, Cahill and Lescott been to Everton?

Why is it guarded. He could be the Scout of the Universe - he is not a manager in my view.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

The first!

Was that the squad with Mark Hately (who dated my first wife - trivia question for you), Gary Gillespie and Danny Thomas?

 

[Grendel]

Was that the squad with Mark Hately (who dated my first wife - trivia question for you), Gary Gillespie and Danny Thomas?

No - they left before he took over the whole squad left??!

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

No - they left before he took over the whole squad left??!

He had some cash though - Dave Bennett signed for £100K in '83. We can't match that now, even allowing for index-linking the sum! Sam Allardyce was at the club too; but beyond that I'm struggling to find a full squad list

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Why is it guarded. He could be the Scout of the Universe - he is not a manager in my view.

It's guarded because most reading his achievements would count him a damn fine scout. Whereas your comments with regards his scouting normally only associate his record with our less attractive 'stars'. I'm trying to see if you'll at least afford him some grace as a decent coach; albeit promoted beyond his station by SISU due to his low cost

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Just looked at the team that started the 4-0 defeat of Liverpool at Highfield Rad in the 83-84 season; Pearce, Peake, Allardyce, Bennett, Gynn, Gibson. Hmmm......

 

[SydneySkyBlue]

As a scout he may have merit but that does not make him a manager in my book. It's hardly astounding someone posts consistently for a managers head when we are in the worst league position in over half a century.

Why symapthise it's his job and he gets paid to do it.

While things are this black and white for him there's no hope MMM.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

In fact, the more I look at it, even the darkest Gould years seems like something from a Disney film compared to now. Nicky Platnauer signed from Bristol Rovers for £50K as a promising goal-scoring 22 year old from lower-league Bristol City in '83. The stuff of dreams. Now we're paying lower wages than Crawley Town and being beaten to signatures by Barnsley and Doncaster, and jealously eyeing Peterborough structuring £1m deals....

God sent me to provide his salvation GSS!

 

[SydneySkyBlue]

Now we're paying lower wages than Crawley Town and being beaten to signatures by Barnsley and Doncaster, and jealously eyeing Peterborough structuring £1m deals....

God that's upsetting. I'm going to get a beer.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

God that's upsetting. I'm going to get a beer.

It's not a bowl of cherries though, as Crawley do have a certain Scott Shearer as goalkeeping back-up ;-)

 

[Paxman II]

So much opinion and always given with a disregard for others opinions and creating argument.

Look I think we are going down. No offense anyone but that is what I think. That does not mean it's certain or I'm right. I just think we are going down.

I also think having studied what is happening in football currently with financial restraints etc we will hold onto a good portion of our squad. Reason is because no one else has the finance to buy them, offer no more optimism for the future than us, is likely to be a club no bigger or better than us, will not invest in too much youth and will be mindful of new rules, not want players from a squad who are responsible for no away wins and relegation and the list goes on...

I accept the so called 'better' players will move on but even those may have a surprise to find a new club? If we keep the core of this squad - those young new 'stars' we have then they will grow enormously with us and are already very experienced at championship level. I firmly believe with a god manager in place we can more than compete in League 1 and also think we will be promotion challenging especially with the likes of the Sheffield clubs and Charlton out the way.
Look at that league and study the remaining teams and their finance and squad situations and you will see we are in fact probably the most stable and well equipped club about to be in it.

I also think with wins on a regular basis our attendances will improve because it will be the first time we have been at the right end of a League for more than 35 years! Can you imagine that? People will get interested again.

Those that believe SISU will continue to decimate our club have not been paying proper attention to matters the last few months. getting our house in a sustainable order will give us strength to go forward. Any potential new investment will add fuel to the momentum. Even a takeover would imply investment.

 

[SydneySkyBlue]

It's not a bowl of cherries though, as Crawley do have a certain Scott Shearer as goalkeeping back-up ;-)

It amazes me that Luke Steele still plays at our level!

 

[edgy]

SISU are still cost cutting towards a Championship budget. If we are relegated, expect further drastic cuts in costs, as TV revenue dries up. They say a club loses approx £4m a year just by dropping from Championship to L1. That will probably mean no contracts renewed of top earners & free transfers sanctioned, even if the player is worth something.

If we get relegated, Murphy, Keogh, Craine, Bell, Christie, possibly Thomas will all be off. Then take away Norwood & Nimely, and we are looking poor.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I can see some wisdom in what Paxman states. If we can keep the younger players at the club, then they'll be well served by their experiences of this year. As a cohesive unit, they have the scope to be very, very good; especially allowing for further excellent youngsters from our table-topping under 18's to come through, such as Clarke-Harris.

However, if SISU are getting our house in order - and I can see that there's more sustainability to our planning than many others in the league - why the late filing of our accounts? They must have a provision for a worst-case scenario; and why the revolving pantomime door of Directors coming and going like a Frenchman's dignity?

 

[Grendel]

Just looked at the team that started the 4-0 defeat of Liverpool at Highfield Rad in the 83-84 season; Pearce, Peake, Allardyce, Bennett, Gynn, Gibson. Hmmm......

I am a bit busy working at the minute. However you clearly never attended every home and away game that season as I did. Boy I'm going to enjoy my response. I'd start checking my years if I were you and I'd start researching raddy avramvich, Dave bamber, Graham withey, Peter hormansrhuck, Ashley grimes and by the way allardyce was a disaster, platneur was a nuneaton borough lad who was well out of his depth and the national newspapers at the time laughed at the squad and said they would be relegated at Christmas. Pearce was signed from wealdstone and you clearly have no idea at all what you are talking about. Compare that team to the one that played in the previous year. As you are such an expert why did I also mention 1975 what happened then?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Dave Bamber had a good reputation when signed from Blackpool, with 36 goals in 100 appearances. Just because he was terrible for us, doesn't bear any semblance to the main point of the debate - which was which of the relevant squads was subject to the more generous levels of investment, then or now. He was an investment. The quality of the result is another issue.

And I like your point about attending more games than me in 1975. Thanks. You probably did. Does that mean - as your insinuation makes - that you therefore are better qualified as me to speak about that time? Yes if you did, you probably are. Just as in the same way I notice you don't appear to attend as many games as I under Thorn's tenure. Hence you won't mind the same rules applying ;-)

 

[Grendel]

What league were we in at the time. What league was Pearce, bennet, bamber, gynn, withey, pkatnuar, avramobic in when we signed them? Did you ever see them play. 1975 think america if you want a clue.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Even Pearce cost money. A huge amount for a non-league player. Bennett cost money. Decent money. Platnauer cost decent money from Bristol City. Bamber cost money and was seen as promising when at Blackpool.

The point of the debate, as you've moved away in the way you often favour, is which team in comparative terms was best funded. I think you have your answer.

Now what next? What pie did you have on the 3rd game of the '79 season?

 

[Grendel]

Simple question did you ever see them play and do you know anything about the team sold off the year before?

Do you know why i also mentioned 1975 as a comparable year for financial issues?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Again, nothing to do with the point of the debate. If you want to start a trivia quiz, start your own thread on it. Then I'll decide if I want to join in.

The debate related to comparative levels of investment over the last 50 years. Yo cited a couple of seasons - as is your prerogative - and I proved the levels of investment at the time were greater than now. Micky Gynn, another from your list, being a £60K purchase in '83. One of the years you cite. Index link that value and it's akin to a £500K player now. No, make that another player signed for reasonable values in a season you cited as being akin to our current state. It's not.

You agree that you were wrong on citing the years you did, and I'll play your trivia game; okay?

 

[oldskyblue58]

So whatever the team or manager the results aren't acceptable? So if we had pub players it wouod be unacceptable?

How unreasonable. We have rejects and children.

we have won 6 in 36 matches this season - none away from home. I didnt say win all the games i said we should expect to win more games, that is not unreasonable or do you expect us to be relegated from League 1 too ?! Because a similar record to this will probably see that and i will have paid my money for no good reason. Do you not set your sights higher than acceptable failure because I dont set my sights so low. It is not unreasonable to expect more wins especially if in a division lower !

As for fielding a pub team? get a grip you know as well as i do we couldnt afford to sign them or pay the beer bill. But seriously its a silly comment because we will have a squad of professional players probably with AT as manager or dont you rate his qualities to inspire the team he puts together. Even 10 or 11 wins would be better even a couple of away wins would be better right now - that isnt expecting miracles

we have proven we can match most teams, surely that proves we are good enough to win some games, or are we saying AT & team fluked it. I didnt ask for promotion or the FA cup, a few more wins isnt unreasonable and is something we should expect - I would think everyone involved at CCFC would expect that

Do you think AT finds it acceptable that we havent won more. Do you think AT doesnt expect more wins. Any manager would expect better and rightly so. Same for the players who are not all rejects and children (not many under 18 in the team as far as I can see)

I am not being unreasonable, thats just asking for better for the hard earnt cash I shell out each year.

 

[Otis]

As usual, a rational. well-reasoned and sensible post.

Tis actually 7 wins in 36, but as you say, we have matched most teams for the most part and that tells you that 7 wins in 36 matches is just not acceptable .... and those defeats are not all down to squad sizes and tiredness and inexperience etc.

7 wins in 36 is shocking and 10 straight away defeats is just scandulous, especially considering the lack of even chances created, let alone goals.

 

[Grendel]

Again, nothing to do with the point of the debate. If you want to start a trivia quiz, start your own thread on it. Then I'll decide if I want to join in.

The debate related to comparative levels of investment over the last 50 years. Yo cited a couple of seasons - as is your prerogative - and I proved the levels of investment at the time were greater than now. Micky Gynn, another from your list, being a £60K purchase in '83. One of the years you cite. Index link that value and it's akin to a £500K player now. No, make that another player signed for reasonable values in a season you cited as being akin to our current state. It's not.

You agree that you were wrong on citing the years you did, and I'll play your trivia game; okay?

I will take that as a no then. No you never did watch them, no you no nothing about the history of the club (Gillespie, Thomas, Hateley exposed you badly) you mention players and no nothing about them - did you know two players yes two players were in the first team in Gould's season that were in Sextons the prior year, the whole squad was sold and a fraction of the budget was allowed on signings for the following season. One player Grimes was displayed in front of the main stand in July as the one signing in the same league and the rest were unknowns. To even suggest the likes of Dave Bamber were of first division quality is laughable. The goalkeeper was a Yugoslavian who had retired from the game to take up law. No one had heard of Peake and Platneur they were lower league players. Pearce cost £20,000 and was thrown in as left back. Allardyce was a joke and Bennett was playing Division 3 football.

1975 - we bought into America - Detroit Express and Garry Collier.

Sorry don't even bother to compare the teams you clearly never saw BOTH of them and there is the difference.

Just forget it.

 

[dongonzalos]

As usual, a rational. well-reasoned and sensible post.

Tis actually 7 wins in 36, but as you say, we have matched most teams for the most part and that tells you that 7 wins in 36 matches is just not acceptable .... and those defeats are not all down to squad sizes and tiredness and inexperience etc.

7 wins in 36 is shocking and 10 straight away defeats is just scandulous, especially considering the lack of even chances created, let alone goals.

the only thing I would say to counter that, is that the bookies are no mugs and they generally get things right. They looked at what happened to us over the summer and made us favorites for relegation. Then we sold Turner and let the Juke go at Christmas. I know it has been mentioned that letting Juke go allowed Nimely and Norwood to come in however I was under the impression we were looking to sign loan players before we sold the Juke.
My point been the bookies had us down as favourites for relegation because of the releasing and sales of players. They are generally right. We then sold two more.
We are 4 points off relegation
So is 7 wins acceptable or unacceptable?
Should we already be relegated?
Is it a massive achievement if we stay up?
Would it make Thorn not the worse manager in the world if we are still fighting to the end but go down? (I know it is bad to go down but the bookies generally dont get things wrong)
What did we expect, that the bookies would be wrong we would tie Thorns other arm behind his back and we would win 14 games and finish mid table. I honestly didnt. For me I agreed with the bookies I expected to get relegated, I hoped we would not sack AT I hoped we would still play attractive football. I prayed that SISU would leave before January so that they could not do more damage.
I know people will disagree but I still enjoy our football I am glad AT is still there.
I am gutted that it looks like SISU will still be her in the Summer so we will lose at least 8 good pros. I am gutted we will more likely than not be relegated

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

But yet again, you have moved the goal posts. The debate was about which team had been in receipt of the most funds. You may scoff at Pearce's value - somewhere between £20K and 35k, demanding upon where you read, but you ignore Bennett signed for £100K, Platnauer signed for £50K (who was proving himself at Bristol), Gynn for £60k, etc. etc. funds were spent. Index link those sums ver the 20 year term that's passed since and they're not insignificant values.

Compare and contrast now and we are not able to compete with Barnsley to sign players such as Drinkwater, and our overall spend being within the bottom two or so clubs of the top two divisions.

And I don't need to watch both teams to be able to access records to prove you were wrong in your claim. Which team was best is another debate. The merits of signing players from lower divisions compared to blooding one's own youngsters another debate. But that wasn't the issue.

But you appear to now stating that I should ignore the facts and now bow to the knee of your superior knowledge as you saw every game home and away of a mid-70's season; and you can therefore you know best as you've lived longer. Well done. That stated, why run a forum like this? Why don't we simply put our ages next to our posts, and the oldest contributor wins every time?

 

[Macca]

This team has shown in patches to be capable. Who is to blame is an ongoing debate but I remain convinced that they have not performed to the best of their ability. If they are that bad why do people still feel we can stay up?

 

[wingy]

Goals,Goals,Goals ,not enough of them ,two defensive coaches explayers ,have felt we needed someone like Dion involved ,or david Kelly who used to work with billy Davis

 

[AFCCOVENTRY]

Bottom line is we have been shit this season and we deserve our league position.

 

[dongonzalos]

This team has shown in patches to be capable. Who is to blame is an ongoing debate but I remain convinced that they have not performed to the best of their ability. If they are that bad why do people still feel we can stay up?

For me if we had kept the Juke and signed Nimely and Norwood. It would have been a better possibility. Now it all depends on people staying fit and a bit of luck. However if you have such a bare thread squad like we have if you have the likes of Clingan, Cody, Clarke, Wood, McPake injured for long periods you are screwed and Fat boy refusing to act like a professional.

We needed 4 more players of the quality of Juke, Nimely, Norwood and one other we lost one of them and got the other two in January.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

1975 - we bought into America - Detroit Express and Garry Collier.

Just as an aside, as I like things to be nice and clear; can you explain this one to me? Detroit Express appears to have been in existence from 1978 to 1980?..

 

[Grendel]

Just as an aside, as I like things to be nice and clear; can you explain this one to me? Detroit Express appears to have been in existence from 1978 to 1980?..

What's the point you are clearly the expert.

The original comment on the 1982 team was that the previous squad was all sold other than Gerry Daly and Ian Butterworth and was then replaced by all players of 2 divisions below and more. All you have done is look at Wikepedia identified names that mean nothing to you and quoted transfer fees. You claim this is then money that Thorn did not have. The point is missed. The comparison would be that all of last seasons squad other than Cranie and Deegan left and were replaced by Division Two players. They survived. I am sure you know all the players that were sold and I am sure you saw them all play.

You may be right it may be 78 it may be 75 I don't really care anymore than you know who Garry Gillespie is (you know the guy who played for Bobby Gould). What I do know is that in 1974/5 the club embarked on a selling spree having purchased a couple of expensive signings (british transfer fee for one player) and then faced financial meltdown. The subsequent disastrous venture into the American Football League and the strange transfer fee of Garry Collier from Bristol City and Dave Jones led to extreme financial hardship.

The difference between me an you is I am not looking up one fact this is all from memory because at least I have a memory of these events something you obviously have no actual recollection of at all.

You can argue what you like but the suggestion Thorn's job is harder than the pieces Gould picked up in 82/83 is laughable - that is to anyone who was there at the time.

 

[Grendel]

Again, nothing to do with the point of the debate. If you want to start a trivia quiz, start your own thread on it. Then I'll decide if I want to join in.

The debate related to comparative levels of investment over the last 50 years. Yo cited a couple of seasons - as is your prerogative - and I proved the levels of investment at the time were greater than now. Micky Gynn, another from your list, being a £60K purchase in '83. One of the years you cite. Index link that value and it's akin to a £500K player now. No, make that another player signed for reasonable values in a season you cited as being akin to our current state. It's not.

We sold Garry Gillespie, Mark Hateley, Les Sealey, Danny Thomas, Jim Blyth, Peter Bodak, Rudi Kaiser, Jim Haga, Garry Thompson, Steve Whitton but hey they were a doddle to replace just names in history.

 

[dongonzalos]

So much opinion and always given with a disregard for others opinions and creating argument.

Look I think we are going down. No offense anyone but that is what I think. That does not mean it's certain or I'm right. I just think we are going down.

I also think having studied what is happening in football currently with financial restraints etc we will hold onto a good portion of our squad. Reason is because no one else has the finance to buy them, offer no more optimism for the future than us, is likely to be a club no bigger or better than us, will not invest in too much youth and will be mindful of new rules, not want players from a squad who are responsible for no away wins and relegation and the list goes on...

I accept the so called 'better' players will move on but even those may have a surprise to find a new club? If we keep the core of this squad - those young new 'stars' we have then they will grow enormously with us and are already very experienced at championship level. I firmly believe with a god manager in place we can more than compete in League 1 and also think we will be promotion challenging especially with the likes of the Sheffield clubs and Charlton out the way.
Look at that league and study the remaining teams and their finance and squad situations and you will see we are in fact probably the most stable and well equipped club about to be in it.

I also think with wins on a regular basis our attendances will improve because it will be the first time we have been at the right end of a League for more than 35 years! Can you imagine that? People will get interested again.

Those that believe SISU will continue to decimate our club have not been paying proper attention to matters the last few months. getting our house in a sustainable order will give us strength to go forward. Any potential new investment will add fuel to the momentum. Even a takeover would imply investment.

The problem is Paxman I dont think that they have got our finances in order. To do that they would need the club to earning as much as it is losing. I think to do that they would need to buy the stadium or make the team succesful so that we either stay in the championship or get promoted.
IMO we are now facing the serious prospect of relegation and that even attendances of 20,000 a week will not make us earn as much as we lose. Hence more releasing of players and selling any of our young crop that other teams sniff at. Hence no promotion from League 1 more debt.
Just a question do you think that the 1 million from Juke could have been held off till the summer as we may have had more chance of staying up with him in our squad.
If what someone else has suggested is correct we will lose 4 million inTV money from relegation. I would have though if SISU were doing things correctly delaying receiving one million by 4 months in order to attemot to preserve 4 million would have been a financially wise thing?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

We were a poorly financed top tier team Now we're a poorly funded second tier side.

The problem with memory, evidently, is that it gives rise to erroneous quotes. By checking back and referring to facts, I can see the financial reality of the situation as opposed to your 'recollection'.

I can see Gould being appointed on 01.05.83, and in the season 82/83, Daly, Kaiser and Blythe leave. In the following season 83/84, There's a real exodus - Gillespe, Thomas, Sealey, Hateley, Hendrie. Four of those look like painful departures. Does this sound about right?

But I see those four departures, and try and understand their significance to the team at the time, but equally look at the departures we've seen in the last 12 months, namely Westwod, Turner, Gunnarrson and King. I suggest their importance to our new team is as significant ad the departures in the '80s.

However, to hark back to the point I've tried to make earlier, I can also see players being signed back then - Ashley Grimes was a £200K player, and other values I've cited earlier. Now you may tell me they're poor players. History appears to back that assertion, but some money was spent. Admittedly less than was grossed income, but decent value players were signed and cash expended. As I keep on eluding to, index link those values into today's currency and we're talking about players in the hundreds of thousands of pounds bracket and above.

That is the luxury that's not been afforded the current manager; whatever you think of him. And that why I stand by the original statement I made, even if you readily refute it as you seem to be able to sit as judge and jury and dismiss me as I didn't take in every game - home and away - of the '75 season!?!