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Wasps downward spiral... (14 Viewers)

  • Thread starter CCFC54321
  • Start date Oct 20, 2018
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napolimp

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 3, 2022
  • #6,581
If Wasps manage to refinance their bond, I'm going to walk into one of their lenders branches and say - could you lend me a few million quid please? I have a shed in my garden worth 5 million, no money in the bank, and I can be regularly found down the strip club throwing £50 notes around.
 
Reactions: Terry Gibson's perm and duffer

joemercersaces

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 3, 2022
  • #6,582
chiefdave said:
but where does that £4m a year come from when they're losing millions a year already?
Click to expand...
Council, obvs
 
Reactions: Saddlebrains

SBAndy

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 3, 2022
  • #6,583
It’s only 3.5 months since HSBC were doing their “final due diligence”. Find it interesting that the lender hasn’t been named on this occasion - once bitten, twice shy? Or a fabrication? I’d imagine evidence would have had to be provided in order to release the notification.
 
Reactions: CCFC54321 and CCFCSteve
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oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 3, 2022
  • #6,584
SBAndy said:
It’s only 3.5 months since HSBC were doing their “final due diligence”. Find it interesting that the lender hasn’t been named on this occasion - once bitten, twice shy? Or a fabrication? I’d imagine evidence would have had to be provided in order to release the notification.
Click to expand...

Waiting for the WMCA money tree to bear fruit?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 3, 2022
  • #6,585
SBAndy said:
It’s only 3.5 months since HSBC were doing their “final due diligence”. Find it interesting that the lender hasn’t been named on this occasion - once bitten, twice shy? Or a fabrication? I’d imagine evidence would have had to be provided in order to release the notification.
Click to expand...
Yet over on their forum they're taking this statement as proof the bond is to be repaid shortly as the prospective, unnamed, lender would't have allowed the statement to be put out otherwise. They take head in the sand to a whole new level.
 
Reactions: duffer

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 3, 2022
  • #6,586
Grendel said:
40 years at 12% would be £4 million a year
Click to expand...
Unless it’s
a) an offer to buy the company which holds the head lease
b) a local authority helping out
 

jordan210

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 4, 2022
  • #6,587

Read the comments under so many salty wasps fans

as the picture doesn't show wasps are rumoured to be roughly 112m in debt
 
Last edited: Sep 4, 2022
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wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 4, 2022
  • #6,588
Interesting they seem to be fairly accurate regards our level considering it rarely gets headlines IMO.
 

tisza

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 4, 2022
  • #6,589

Premiership clubs rack up more than £500MILLION in debt

The financial crisis facing English rugby has been laid bare after a Mail on Sunday investigation found that Premiership clubs have racked up debts of more than £500million.
www.dailymail.co.uk
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
  • Sep 4, 2022
  • #6,590
Rugby is in a massive mess. It needs a complete reset and I am not sure how they can do it. Further down the rugby pyramid things are pretty grim too.

The article itself is inaccurate and clearly the paper gave the investigation to people who don't understand accounts.

I am sure all clubs owe HMRC and possibly more than 38m total shown. What they would owe is VAT & PAYE not deferred tax.

Deferred tax is an accounting provision for potential corporation tax on the disposal of assets above their ordinal cost in simple terms. In wasps case the increase in value on stadium and other land assets. It is not something that has to be paid to HMRC unless those assets are sold.

A summary like this ignores the assets each club so it doesn't really tell you where each club is at.

I suspect that wasps could still be the club with the biggest net debt.

Whole premiership is in danger of complete collapse. I suspect the clubs that will remain join the European leagues
 
Reactions: AOM, clint van damme and duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 4, 2022
  • #6,591
I think they're hanging an awful lot on this potential refinancing of the bond.

I'm not convinced it's going to happen, personally, but even if it does it doesn't resolve the huge structural issues at Wasps.

If anything taking on more debt at higher interest (which seems the most probable solution) will simply magnify the problems in the long run; sooner or later they're going to run out of road, imho.
 
Reactions: torchomatic and CCFC54321
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wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 4, 2022
  • #6,592
oldskyblue58 said:
Rugby is in a massive mess. It needs a complete reset and I am not sure how they can do it. Further down the rugby pyramid things are pretty grim too.

The article itself is inaccurate and clearly the paper gave the investigation to people who don't understand accounts.

I am sure all clubs owe HMRC and possibly more than 38m total shown. What they would owe is VAT & PAYE not deferred tax.

Deferred tax is an accounting provision for potential corporation tax on the disposal of assets above their ordinal cost in simple terms. In wasps case the increase in value on stadium and other land assets. It is not something that has to be paid to HMRC unless those assets are sold.

A summary like this ignores the assets each club so it doesn't really tell you where each club is at.

I suspect that wasps could still be the club with the biggest net debt.

Whole premiership is in danger of complete collapse. I suspect the clubs that will remain join the European leagues
Click to expand...
Or a complete sell out to the media companies
Edit:- which in reality is pretty worthless to them with a closed league without progression.
 
C

CCFC54321

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 4, 2022
  • #6,593
duffer said:
I think they're hanging an awful lot on this potential refinancing of the bond.

I'm not convinced it's going to happen, personally, but even if it does it doesn't resolve the huge structural issues at Wasps.

If anything taking on more debt at higher interest (which seems the most probable solution) will simply magnify the problems in the long run; sooner or later they're going to run out of road, imho.
Click to expand...
I’d just like to understand the business plan they have dropped in front of the ‘potential lenders’ of this loan to pay the bond holders.

what ever the plan has been over the last 8 years certainly hasn’t worked so what’s going to change now that didn’t work before?
 
Reactions: duffer

jordan210

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,594
 
Reactions: duffer

Nick

Administrator
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,595
Yeah, the wording "from them".
 
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napolimp

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,596
jordan210 said:
Click to expand...

So the definitely real funding Wasps are close to securing is not from the council.
 
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wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,597
Well it could result (bondholders) take it out of Wasps hands but I'd say it's been slow off the ground and really obstructive and time consuming so likely to fail IMO
 
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oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,598
napolimp said:
So the definitely real funding Wasps are close to securing is not from the council.
Click to expand...

WMCA?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,599
oldfiver said:
WMCA?
Click to expand...

That would still mean £22m funding needed
 

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,600
There's no evidence to say Wasp are getting funding though, it's talk to stall the bondholders. Of course Wasp are going to say we're hopeful of a refinancing package from an unnamed lender. It's like me saying I'm hopeful of a Dubai based consortium taking over CCFC.
 
Reactions: duffer, MacReady and CCFC54321

jordan210

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,601
I do enjoy reading the comments of wasps fans when anything negative gets posted about them.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,602
The securing funding part is just from the Wasps update isn't it so nothing we didn't already know and as has been discussed we've been here before months ago with a named lender.

Unless someone is gifting them the cash somehow they are going to have to pay it off and paying off the capital on top of the interest payments they were previously paying. The question remains how are they going to afford those repayments?
 
Reactions: duffer
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wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,603
Gynnsthetonic said:
There's no evidence to say Wasp are getting funding though, it's talk to stall the bondholders. Of course Wasp are going to say we're hopeful of a refinancing package from an unnamed lender. It's like me saying I'm hopeful of a Dubai based consortium taking over CCFC.
Click to expand...
Just whispers,but potentially if it were local/regional money then timing of announcement is sensitive to political events/consideration or possibly beneficial timing of Wasps manoeuvres.
 
O

oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,604
Grendel said:
That would still mean £22m funding needed
Click to expand...

If a Grant to replace lending it becomes more viable on an LTV basis also reduces outflows
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,605
How on earth could a grant to bail out this type of organisation be justified? If it can, why shouldn’t CCFC get a grant?
 
T

theferret

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,606
jordan210 said:
I do enjoy reading the comments of wasps fans when anything negative gets posted about them.
Click to expand...

They don't know how to handle it, it just doesn't compute.

To them the game is all middle-class back-slapping, dipping cocks in beer and eating artisan pork pies out of the back of Land Rovers. They really struggle when any sort of criticism is levelled at them, especially from football fans.
 
Reactions: djr8369, SkyBlueSam01 and MacReady

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,607
Meanwhile, 4 local Worcestershire MPs have demanded Worcester to placed onto Administration.
 
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Nick

Administrator
  • Sep 5, 2022
  • #6,608
Gynnsthetonic said:
Meanwhile, 4 local Worcestershire MPs have demanded Worcester to placed onto Administration.
Click to expand...

While ours try and justify them not paying tax bills because "Amazon".
 
Reactions: smoothasfudge14, AOM, djr8369 and 12 others

jordan210

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 6, 2022
  • #6,609
 
Reactions: SkyBlueSam01, vow, AOM and 6 others

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 6, 2022
  • #6,610
Just stalling tactics from Wasp then as the bondholders revolt gathers pace. Nobody in there right mind will lend to them (hopefully)
 
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Mcbean

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 6, 2022
  • #6,611
Just sad the national newspaper ( the DT ) focus on Worcester and not Wasps
 

Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 6, 2022
  • #6,612
Gynnsthetonic said:
Just stalling tactics from Wasp then as the bondholders revolt gathers pace. Nobody in there right mind will lend to them (hopefully)
Click to expand...

I think the offer of finance is genuine but whether it does anything other than kick this enormous can further down the road seems highly unlikely.
 

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 6, 2022
  • #6,613
Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon said:
I think the offer of finance is genuine but whether it does anything other than kick this enormous can further down the road seems highly unlikely.
Click to expand...
I think it's a stalling tactic myself, if they did get finance it's more debt to pay off debt, it doesn't make sense to me but I'm sure we'll soon find out one way or other
 
Reactions: duffer

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 6, 2022
  • #6,614
I think offers of finance isn't going to be the problem for the London rugby club to achieve. The problem comes when the lender does their due diligence and the warning lights start going off.

 
Reactions: vow

Frostie

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 6, 2022
  • #6,615
Philosorapter said:
I think offers of finance isn't going to be the problem for the London rugby club to achieve. The problem comes when the lender does their due diligence and the warning lights start going off.

View attachment 26124
Click to expand...

Nah, the 2 Harry Styles gigs will probably raise the £35m if you ask a Wasps fan
 
Reactions: CCFC54321
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