Wasps current finances & hope (1 Viewer)

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 4, 2018

italiahorse said:
I guess they can spot a sound business case ?
CCFC only returned because Wasps were coming. No other reason.

Yes the council which doesn't know its arse from its elbow knows a good deal when they see one. Seems to me hedge fund-owned clubs are fine as long as the hedge fund isn't SISU. Also a good chance for Lucas to get a photo with James Haskell on the Ricoh pitch, never saw her bother at Highfield Rd or the Ricoh with Cov players.

italiahorse said:
No they had ample opportunity to buy into Higgs share. A little more negotiation and who knows.
Applying a strangle hold to CCC was always risky and it went wrong.
Having said that we lost the stadium long before Sisu arrived.

That part is true, the blame for that lies with Ranson who failed to take up the option when presented with it on a silver plate. Still it made possible to see first class egg-chasing and drink alcohol in sight of the playing area.

Terry Gibson's perm · Mar 4, 2018

Italia has got one right he said that they wouldn’t use the away stand today they didn’t need to, the video I just saw on twitter they could have got the whole lot of them in one stand and had space, if there are 10k in there I would be stunned is it a friendly.

Moff · Mar 4, 2018

italiahorse said:
They couldn't afford it, particularly in London area.

Proof of which is where? Just making up things to prove your point again?
I assume you can load debt onto property/land in London just like Coventry, or is that just a special gift given by CCC to out of town Rugby teams?

italiahorse · Mar 4, 2018

Terry Gibson's perm said:
Italia has got one right he said that they wouldn’t use the away stand today they didn’t need to, the video I just saw on twitter they could have got the whole lot of them in one stand and had space, if there are 10k in there I would be stunned is it a friendly.

A lot of season ticket holders never turned up. No idea what the attendance was today.
No queue to renew season tickets either.

Terry Gibson's perm · Mar 4, 2018

italiahorse said:
A lot of season ticket holders never turned up. No idea what the attendance was today.
No queue to renew season tickets either.

What do you think the crowd was 8k?

Were the freebies less readily available today

fernandopartridge · Mar 4, 2018

Moff said:
Proof of which is where? Just making up things to prove your point again?
I assume you can load debt onto property/land in London just like Coventry, or is that just a special gift given by CCC to out of town Rugby teams?

Of course you can, and you'd no doubt find it a LOT easier to raise the finance for it considering the demand for and value of land in London, instead of going down the unusual route of a retail bond.

Moff · Mar 4, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
Of course you can, and you'd no doubt find it a LOT easier to raise the finance for it considering the demand for and value of land in London, instead of going down the unusual route of a retail bond.

I was just being sarcastic about it to him, as tired of the same old lines being thrown out when its just a load of bluff and bluster.

italiahorse · Mar 4, 2018

Terry Gibson's perm said:
What do you think the crowd was 8k?

Were the freebies less readily available today

If you count up like CCFC did the other week there was 28,500.

I would say about 8,000 but a lot of season ticket holders never bothered so the official will be about 12,000 as a guess.

Lot of scouts there today in kids corner. Bit like our games but with woggles on.

Captain Dart · Mar 4, 2018

Waspy Bob said:
I know the majority of folk here aren't interested in more details, but there are a couple of things that are relevant to these issues.

Cipriani is leaving which is a damn shame, but he is being replaced by Lima Sopoaga who is rated as one of the best 10s in the world and to date has been a regular for the All Blacks. So whilst it is likely to have an impact on team cohesion, it isn't likely to be a reflection of anything negative regading finances.

The salary cap thing was very disappointing, but not as big a deal as it has been painted. There is an allowance in the Salary Cap which the club gets when a player is away on England duty. If said player is injured and therefore unable to be part of the England camp that allowance is not given. With Hughes, Haskell and Daly all having been injured for some time that would account for the discrepancy. This wouldn't be an issue, apart from the fact that you have to agree what people will be getting paid at the begining of the year, and you find out what the size of the allowance you get from the RFU is as it happens. If it shows anything, it is how close Wasps are skirting to the limit of the cap.

Don't give a fuck, stupid game.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 4, 2018

italiahorse said:
If you count up like CCFC did the other week there was 28,500.

I would say about 8,000 but a lot of season ticket holders never bothered so the official will be about 12,000 as a guess.

Lot of scouts there today in kids corner. Bit like our games but with woggles on.

Supplies of craft ale still holding firm?

oldskyblue58 · Mar 5, 2018

I don't wish to get involved in the usual circular arguments but just some facts

The freehold at the Ricoh and the build costs still remain the property of CCC. It still remains as an asset on the CCC balance sheet at the value they choose to include. The freehold and build has never been sold
Wasps paid for the shares of ACL and a lease extension not the ownership of the freehold stadium (ie the build costs) So two completely different assets being compared when looking at values
Whilst you can equate long leasehold as freehold for valuation purposes that is completely different to legal rights of ownership
The ultimate owner of Wasps Holdings is Moonstone Holdings Limited controlled by Derek Richardson - do we know it is a hedge fund or is it simply a tax avoidance vehicle? Is it his family money that Moonstone invests or other individuals and entities ? There is a difference.
The Freehold of the Ricoh does not appear in any Wasps related company financials nor did it appear in ACL pre Wasps sale
Currently this season on the home matches Wasps have a total attendance from 9 fixtures of 154398 at same point last year (2016/17) it was 161235 (on a team for team basis). Average so far is 17155 last year 17915.
Last Sport Turnover details we have are for 2015/16 when average crowds were 16916 and totalled £12.3m. With similar averages so far, then has turnover greatly dived despite all the apparent free tickets then and now?
Total Wasps turnover to 30/06/2017 £33m
Attendances so far this season in the AVIVA Premiership have generally dropped, only Exeter & Worcester show a small increase on the season so far. Wasps do not show the biggest drop so far around 19% comparing average to seasons league average last year- even Leicester are down at the moment 15% on same basis. That could change of course, my guess (and therefore not a fact) is that on the regular season Wasps will be down around 14% in the end.
Wasps have 2 home games left, local derbies against Worcester & Northampton (both games last year brought crowds of 19k+)
Crowd 04/03/2018 given as 12,466

other than that as you were and carry on......................

fernandopartridge · Mar 5, 2018

oldskyblue58 said:
I don't wish to get involved in the usual circular arguments but just some facts

The freehold at the Ricoh and the build costs still remain the property of CCC. It still remains as an asset on the CCC balance sheet at the value they choose to include. The freehold and build has never been sold
Wasps paid for the shares of ACL and a lease extension not the ownership of the freehold stadium (ie the build costs) So two completely different assets being compared when looking at values
Whilst you can equate long leasehold as freehold for valuation purposes that is completely different to legal rights of ownership
The ultimate owner of Wasps Holdings is Moonstone Holdings Limited controlled by Derek Richardson - do we know it is a hedge fund or is it simply a tax avoidance vehicle? Is it his family money that Moonstone invests or other individuals and entities ? There is a difference.
The Freehold of the Ricoh does not appear in any Wasps related company financials nor did it appear in ACL pre Wasps sale
Currently this season on the home matches Wasps have a total attendance from 9 fixtures of 154398 at same point last year (2016/17) it was 161235 (on a team for team basis). Average so far is 17155 last year 17915.
Last Sport Turnover details we have are for 2015/16 when average crowds were 16916 and totalled £12.3m. With similar averages so far, then has turnover greatly dived despite all the apparent free tickets then and now?
Total Wasps turnover to 30/06/2017 £33m
Attendances so far this season in the AVIVA Premiership have generally dropped, only Exeter & Worcester show a small increase on the season so far. Wasps do not show the biggest drop so far around 19% comparing average to seasons league average last year- even Leicester are down at the moment 15% on same basis. That could change of course, my guess (and therefore not a fact) is that on the regular season Wasps will be down around 14% in the end.
Wasps have 2 home games left, local derbies against Worcester & Northampton (both games last year brought crowds of 19k+)
Crowd 04/03/2018 given as 12,466

other than that as you were and carry on......................

That said, attendance may be about the same as a mean average but I think they might have played less games at home due to being knocked out of competitions earlier. Then again not sure match day income is necessarily their breadwinner

Moff · Mar 5, 2018

oldskyblue58 said:
Attendances so far this season in the AVIVA Premiership have generally dropped, only Exeter & Worcester show a small increase on the season so far. Wasps do not show the biggest drop so far around 19% comparing average to seasons league average last year- even Leicester are down at the moment 15% on same basis. That could change of course, my guess (and therefore not a fact) is that on the regular season Wasps will be down around 14% in the end.
Wasps have 2 home games left, local derbies against Worcester & Northampton (both games last year brought crowds of 19k+)
Crowd 04/03/2018 given as 12,466 ..

I am not sure that either the Worcester or Northampton game will hit those heights this season, especially the Saints who are having a terrible campaign which will put fans off coming. I don't like seeing my team struggle, but if it brings less money into wasps coffers then there is a silver lining.
Attendances have dropped this year in the Premiership as the overall spectacle is certainly not of the quality of previous years, and frankly is quite drab. I am sure our resident fanboy will be on telling us otherwise, but even the pests rugby hasn't been as free flowing this season, and generally what's on show hasn't been as good.

fernandopartridge · Mar 5, 2018

Moff said:
I am not sure that either the Worcester or Northampton game will hit those heights this season, especially the Saints who are having a terrible campaign which will put fans off coming. I don't like seeing my team struggle, but if it brings less money into wasps coffers then there is a silver lining.
Attendances have dropped this year in the Premiership as the overall spectacle is certainly not of the quality of previous years, and frankly is quite drab. I am sure our resident fanboy will be on telling us otherwise, but even the pests rugby hasn't been as free flowing this season, and generally what's on show hasn't been as good.

It's non-tribal nature in the end is what will always put it behind football

italiahorse · Mar 5, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
It's non-tribal nature in the end is what will always put it behind football

Probable a lot of truth in that but Football can learn a lot about respect from Rugby. Particularly between fans and certainly between referee and players.

Terry Gibson's perm · Mar 5, 2018

italiahorse said:
Probable a lot of truth in that but Football can learn a lot about respect from Rugby. Particularly between fans and certainly between referee and players.

Rubbish the sport is sanitised enough it certainly doesn’t need to go around following the lead of a minority sport

italiahorse · Mar 5, 2018

Terry Gibson's perm said:
Rubbish the sport is sanitised enough it certainly doesn’t need to go around following the lead of a minority sport

Then we can't complain if we continue to be separated from other fans by heavy police presence and the club will pay the cost.
No complaints about being shuttled in and out of towns like sheep.
Certainly need to stop moaning about being frisked and bag searches.
I see both and guess which day out experience I prefer ?

clint van damme · Mar 5, 2018

italiahorse said:
Probable a lot of truth in that but Football can learn a lot about respect from Rugby. Particularly between fans and certainly between referee and players.

Disagree about respect between fans, a bit of needle is what makes football great.
Don't like to see refs getting harangued but I don't think lower league players really go over the top, the premiership is a joke, the way they hassle refs.

italiahorse · Mar 5, 2018

clint van damme said:
Disagree about respect between fans, a bit of needle is what makes football great.
Don't like to see refs getting harangued but I don't think lower league players really go over the top, the premiership is a joke, the way they hassle refs.

Rugby has the needle but its more banter than the hate I see in Football.
Premiership and referees is a joke.

Terry Gibson's perm · Mar 5, 2018

italiahorse said:
Then we can't complain if we continue to be separated from other fans by heavy police presence and the club will pay the cost.
No complaints about being shuttled in and out of towns like sheep.
Certainly need to stop moaning about being frisked and bag searches.
I see both and guess which day out experience I prefer ?

It’s a police thing to warrant the excessive charges and allows their staff extra overtime to up theirs money, do the bag searches not happen at wasps because if they don’t I would be worried.

I am not saying the fans need to be fighting but I have no interest in sitting with away fans that isn’t football.

Football has working class roots and so the people are rougher your sport is watched by toffs and people who want to seem above their real place.

You prefer rugby but I bet if we were in the top league your mind would change

italiahorse · Mar 5, 2018

Terry Gibson's perm said:
It’s a police thing to warrant the excessive charges and allows their staff extra overtime to up theirs money, do the bag searches not happen at wasps because if they don’t I would be worried.

I am not saying the fans need to be fighting but I have no interest in sitting with away fans that isn’t football.

Football has working class roots and so the people are rougher your sport is watched by toffs and people who want to seem above their real place.

You prefer rugby but I bet if we were in the top league your mind would change

You don't think the police are needed out of normal hours for football ?

Never been searched at Wasps but have been searched at Twickenham and certainly at the Ricoh for the football.
I would say that without the separation in the corner there would always be fighting. It's sad to see.

I hate it going away and being herded around.
Particularly hate being caught in an area with some of our fans where I have felt threatened or barged.
Emphasised for me as I have often taken friends needing wheelchairs.

England on tour in Russia will be interesting for the wrong reasons.
It won't be many England fans but thats won't be reflected in the press.

I don't prefer Rugby but I do see differences that I would like to one day be seen in football.

Grendel · Mar 5, 2018

italiahorse said:
I don't prefer Rugby but I do see differences that I would like to one day be seen in football.

Would you?

Friday night crowd fracas at Bristol is latest example of rugby's falling standards

italiahorse · Mar 5, 2018

Grendel said:
Would you?

Friday night crowd fracas at Bristol is latest example of rugby's falling standards

Wow. Well found

Terry Gibson's perm · Mar 5, 2018

italiahorse said:
You don't think the police are needed out of normal hours for football ?

Never been searched at Wasps but have been searched at Twickenham and certainly at the Ricoh for the football.
I would say that without the separation in the corner there would always be fighting. It's sad to see.

I hate it going away and being herded around.
Particularly hate being caught in an area with some of our fans where I have felt threatened or barged.
Emphasised for me as I have often taken friends needing wheelchairs.

England on tour in Russia will be interesting for the wrong reasons.
It won't be many England fans but thats won't be reflected in the press.

I don't prefer Rugby but I do see differences that I would like to one day be seen in football.

I would be surprised if there is much trouble in Russia as the hooligans leaders have met Putin who has explained any trouble and they head east there was a report on it today.

The police are needed but not in the numbers it’s a big scam.

Hooligans at football is not a new thing and has eased we have a few idiots. I have felt threatened at one game in my life about 1985 I was chased by Arsenal fans never been bothered since and travelled away to loads of places

wingy · Mar 6, 2018

oldskyblue58 said:
I don't wish to get involved in the usual circular arguments but just some facts

The freehold at the Ricoh and the build costs still remain the property of CCC. It still remains as an asset on the CCC balance sheet at the value they choose to include. The freehold and build has never been sold
Wasps paid for the shares of ACL and a lease extension not the ownership of the freehold stadium (ie the build costs) So two completely different assets being compared when looking at values
Whilst you can equate long leasehold as freehold for valuation purposes that is completely different to legal rights of ownership
The ultimate owner of Wasps Holdings is Moonstone Holdings Limited controlled by Derek Richardson - do we know it is a hedge fund or is it simply a tax avoidance vehicle? Is it his family money that Moonstone invests or other individuals and entities ? There is a difference.
The Freehold of the Ricoh does not appear in any Wasps related company financials nor did it appear in ACL pre Wasps sale
Currently this season on the home matches Wasps have a total attendance from 9 fixtures of 154398 at same point last year (2016/17) it was 161235 (on a team for team basis). Average so far is 17155 last year 17915.
Last Sport Turnover details we have are for 2015/16 when average crowds were 16916 and totalled £12.3m. With similar averages so far, then has turnover greatly dived despite all the apparent free tickets then and now?
Total Wasps turnover to 30/06/2017 £33m
Attendances so far this season in the AVIVA Premiership have generally dropped, only Exeter & Worcester show a small increase on the season so far. Wasps do not show the biggest drop so far around 19% comparing average to seasons league average last year- even Leicester are down at the moment 15% on same basis. That could change of course, my guess (and therefore not a fact) is that on the regular season Wasps will be down around 14% in the end.
Wasps have 2 home games left, local derbies against Worcester & Northampton (both games last year brought crowds of 19k+)
Crowd 04/03/2018 given as 12,466

other than that as you were and carry on......................

I'm not sure what it signifies but when I had a look around when Wasps hadn't been long here .
Gloucester were turning over circa £12M on an average of 12K fans around 4 yrs ago .

wingy · Mar 6, 2018

Just had another look at Gloucester .
Most recent available figures 2015 and 2016.
First year turnover circa £14M.profit circa £2M.
Latter figures for 2016 turnover circa £15M
profit just under £0.5M.
I guess a percentage of commercial and elements of matchday operations come under ACL /Compass Joint enterprise?

Moff · Mar 6, 2018

italiahorse said:
Probable a lot of truth in that but Football can learn a lot about respect from Rugby. Particularly between fans and certainly between referee and players.

Sorry Italia but the standards I have seen between referee and players in Rugby is dropping. Yes its far better than that in football, but you are comparing it to the couple of years you have watched rugby, and I genuinely feel that in the time I have gone to see games, that the standard in rugby is on a downward spiral.

Captain Dart · Mar 6, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
That said, attendance may be about the same as a mean average but I think they might have played less games at home due to being knocked out of competitions earlier. Then again not sure match day income is necessarily their breadwinner

I had a look at the table & Wasps will probably get an Aviva Premiership play-off game.
Not sure if they run a top 2 or top 4 in play off scheme, but Wasps were lying 2nd.

oldskyblue58 · Mar 6, 2018

wingy said:
Just had another look at Gloucester .
Most recent available figures 2015 and 2016.
First year turnover circa £14M.profit circa £2M.
Latter figures for 2016 turnover circa £15M
profit just under £0.5M.
I guess a percentage of commercial and elements of matchday operations come under ACL /Compass Joint enterprise?

that 2m profit in 2015 was because of a revaluation of the league share which gave them a 2.8m paper profit. They value at 6.5m
2016 included an increase in wages of 1m
2016 was a 500k loss not profit

Wasps revalued the league share in 2014 increasing value from 4.3m to 9.7m

Not sure why the league share value is so different between the two clubs

Premiership teams are feeling the strain of wage demands I believe

stupot07 · Mar 6, 2018

oldskyblue58 said:
that 2m profit in 2015 was because of a revaluation of the league share which gave them a 2.8m paper profit. They value at 6.5m
2016 included an increase in wages of 1m
2016 was a 500k loss not profit

Wasps revalued the league share in 2014 increasing value from 4.3m to 9.7m

Not sure why the league share value is so different between the two clubs

Premiership teams are feeling the strain of wage demands I believe

It won't be long until player and agent power blows the wage cap apart. Then they will be buggered, just like football, wages will only go one way.

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italiahorse · Mar 6, 2018

Moff said:
Sorry Italia but the standards I have seen between referee and players in Rugby is dropping. Yes its far better than that in football, but you are comparing it to the couple of years you have watched rugby, and I genuinely feel that in the time I have gone to see games, that the standard in rugby is on a downward spiral.

It has always looked a lot better to me. Can’t believe the restraint on most players after some decisions. How good was it if this is now a downward spiral ?

Moff · Mar 6, 2018

stupot07 said:
It won't be long until player and agent power blows the wage cap apart. Then they will be buggered, just like football, wages will only go one way.

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Already big problems with wage rises and expectation, a lot of clubs having stressed their concerns about it in the past season or so, couple that with players making a case about the risks in the game and the potential for career ending injuries, then wages are only going to spiral.

Moff · Mar 6, 2018

italiahorse said:
It has always looked a lot better to me. Can’t believe the restraint on most players after some decisions. How good was it if this is now a downward spiral ?

It was much better.
Whilst it is more respectful, you are getting far more chat from players who aren't the captain, players constantly pointing things out and moaning to the referee during play, eg) Farrell and Biggar are two who come to mind, and players being told to shut it and back off far more than ever was.
I know he is not everyone's cup of tea, but I like Nigel Owens refereeing, for the way he deals with players and his put downs.

stupot07 · Mar 6, 2018

Moff said:
Already big problems with wage rises and expectation, a lot of clubs having stressed their concerns about it in the past season or so, couple that with players making a case about the risks in the game and the potential for career ending injuries, then wages are only going to spiral.

Yep, even with my limited knowledge, i know they have a wage bill cap, but can sign 2 players outside that. Players will naturally look at them and say why are you only playing me £80-100k pa when your paying him £500k+ pa.

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italiahorse · Mar 6, 2018

stupot07 said:
Yep, even with my limited knowledge, i know they have a wage bill cap, but can sign 2 players outside that. Players will naturally look at them and say why are you only playing me £80-100k pa when your paying him £500k+ pa.

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That’s life ?

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