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Wasps current finances & hope (1 Viewer)

  • Thread starter oldskyblue58
  • Start date Nov 19, 2017
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oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
  • May 7, 2018
  • #1,121
The financials. Will summarise then make a few points

Turnover up - improved
Gross Profit up - improved
Gross margin up - improved
other income up - improved
administrative expenses down - improved
Operating profit before exceptional & other shareholders 2017 £499K loss 2016 £3.772m - improved
exceptional costs down - improved
operating loss 2017 £1.384m 2016 loss £6.212m - improved
Finance costs down - improved
loss for year 2017 £3.809 2016 £6.370 - improved
Lease value up - improved
Stocks up - positive possibly but is cash tied up
trade and other debtors up - positive but is better in cash
Loans & borrowings up - negative
deferred tax up - only a negative if lease actually sold at that value it isnt payable otherwise
deferred income long term down - could be positive or negative
trade creditors and other creditors down - positive
current loans and borrowing up - negative
deferred income current up - could be positive
Cash flow shows 1.5m deficit 2017 in 2016 £279 surplus - negative

Looked at it like that then still heading right direction

Forget the fingers being pointed at the audit report most of those comparatives are positive. The key one however is the last one which shows a squeeze on cash flow. (however we know that the shareholder has put in £1.1m). That is their biggest problem, cash flow, that will be softened by the shareholder having make sure enough is kept on deposit for interest payments if the company cant, under the new bond terms

Revenue in total is up. But some areas show there is still room for improvement. This seasons crowds have dropped off and they havent got a home semi final so there will be some revenue to catch up in 2018. Central distributions from RFU have gone up 1.1m this year The Ricoh deal was a rolling deal it is now a two year deal so thats money they can rely on.

Wage costs are down basically less employees.

in the year they spent 1.64m on fixed assets mainly furniture fittings & equipment

The debtor book has grown - so they are owed 600K more than last year

Borrowings are up 5.2m . The Bond has not changed Richardson put it 3.8m the rest mainly over draft facilities

Creditors are down 2.9m mainly because trade creditors & accruals have fallen but what is owed to HMRC has doubled

Make of it what you will but whilst I think they are finding it tight they are not about to go bust any time soon whilst Richardson is prepared to stump up. Following the new bond agreement then even the pressure on interest payments would appear lessened and the basis of calculation of the EBITDA covenant has been relaxed to include shareholder contributions will ease the pressure too. Their biggest issue is cash flow same as many sports clubs, but ...............

Final thought, they need cash flow, they now have a tenant who has no obvious alternative ground option in Coventry, who it is common knowledge have expectations of sizeable transfer funds (Maddison Wilson etc) who are still taking them to court.........................
 
Last edited: May 7, 2018
Reactions: duffer, Captain Dart, speedie87 and 2 others

Moff

Well-Known Member
  • May 7, 2018
  • #1,122
italiahorse said:
It's the mobile internet. You don't need to be in your bedroom to post.
You thought it was a serious comment ? Wow
Depends how big your writing is not how big the stamp is.
Click to expand...

I was out having a life you dick, if you can't leave the Internet alone mobile or not to post your drivel then I suggest once again to get a life.
I don't post in my bedroom but the fact it's something you suggest says more about you than me.
I didn't think your comment was serious I didn't understand it, no one seems to, it didn't make sense.
I suppose you could write a lot on a stamp if your writing is as small as your wit and intelligence on this matter.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • May 7, 2018
  • #1,123
italiahorse said:
That's before they moved from Wycombe.
Obviously reverting back to just Wasps makes them more transportable.

Saracens and Harlequins next ?
Click to expand...

Like if the Ricoh starts to turn into a money pit and Richardson finds another desperate council to help him out?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • May 7, 2018
  • #1,124
oldskyblue58 said:
Make of it what you will but whilst I think they are finding it tight they are not about to go bust any time soon whilst Richardson is prepared to stump up. Following the n
Click to expand...
That seems to be the key. I think its debatable now much room for improvement there is in a lot of the other numbers. We're told business is fantastic and there are events practically every day. There will be a ceiling that will be reached and in my opinion they are pretty much at that.

Given that they were moved across the country as their owner didn't want to keep covering losses if I was a fan I wouldn't be too confident he's going to keep on doing that if he doesn't see a return down the line.

One questions. It was said elsewhere that the bond money is now gone and they are borrowing from the owner and other sources. Doesn't that mean they now also need to cover the interest payments to stand still?
 
Reactions: Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • May 7, 2018
  • #1,125
italiahorse said:
So why do CCFC want it ?
Click to expand...
It is more like needs somewhere to play that is secure.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • May 7, 2018
  • #1,126
Moff said:
I was out having a life you dick, if you can't leave the Internet alone mobile or not to post your drivel then I suggest once again to get a life.
I don't post in my bedroom but the fact it's something you suggest says more about you than me.
I didn't think your comment was serious I didn't understand it, no one seems to, it didn't make sense.
I suppose you could write a lot on a stamp if your writing is as small as your wit and intelligence on this matter.
Click to expand...

Getting this life seems to make you miserable.
I'm retired so my life is one big holiday.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • May 7, 2018
  • #1,127
oldskyblue58 said:
The financials. Will summarise then make a few points

Turnover up - improved
Gross Profit up - improved
other income up - improved
administrative expenses down - improved
Operating profit before exceptional & other shareholders 2017 £499K loss 2016 £3.772m - improved
exceptional costs down - improved
operating loss 2017 £1.384m 2016 loss £6.212m - improved
Finance costs down - improved
loss for year 2017 £3.809 2016 £6.370 - improved
Lease value up - improved
Stocks up - positive possibly but is cash tied up
trade and other debtors up - positive but is better in cash
Loans & borrowings up - negative
deferred tax up - only a negative if lease actually sold at that value it isnt payable otherwise
deferred income long term down - could be positive or negative
trade creditors and other creditors down - positive
current loans and borrowing up - negative
deferred income current up - could be positive
Cash flow shows 1.5m deficit 2017 in 2016 £279 surplus - negative

Forget the fingers being pointed at the audit report most of those comparatives are positive. The key one however is the last one which shows a squeeze on cash flow. (however we know that the shareholder has put in £1.1m). That is their biggest problem, cash flow, that will be softened by the shareholder having make sure enough is kept on deposit for interest payments if the company cant, under the new bond terms

Revenue in total is up. But some areas show there is still room for improvement. This seasons crowds have dropped off and they havent got a home semi final so there will be some revenue to catch up in 2018. Central distributions from RFU have gone up 1.1m this year The Ricoh deal was a rolling deal it is now a two year deal so thats money they can rely on.

Wage costs are down basically less employees.

in the year they spent 1.64m on fixed assets mainly furniture fittings & equipment

The debtor book has grown - so they are owed 600K more than last year

Borrowings are up 5.2m . The Bond has not changed Richardson put it 3.8m the rest mainly over draft facilities

Creditors are down 2.9m mainly because trade creditors & accruals have fallen but what is owed to HMRC has doubled

Make of it what you will but whilst I think they are finding it tight they are not about to go bust any time soon whilst Richardson is prepared to stump up. Following the new bond agreement then even the pressure on interest payments would appear lessened and the basis of calculation of the EBITDA covenant has been relaxed to include shareholder contributions will ease the pressure too. Their biggest issue is cash flow same as many sports clubs, but ...............

Final thought, they need cash flow, they now have a tenant who has no obvious alternative ground option in Coventry, who it is common knowledge have expectations of sizeable transfer funds (Maddison Wilson etc) who are still taking them to court.........................
Click to expand...

What you are really saying is the only way they will be able to sustain the business is if the owner funds losses.

The stadium returns for non sport related events are not good and never will be. You wouldn’t locate an exhibition / concert hall next to a big rival like the NEC if you wanted any returns of significance. Repair costs will become an issue.

You assume Richardson moved here for two reasons:

Increased profitability and less reliance on him to support the project
A growth in image and increased success on the field

The attempt to attract their desired sponsor exposed how absurd they overvalued themselves.

Wasps are like the working class lottery winner who turns up to a five star resort — they don’t fit in

Will the owner in the end change his objectives and continue to put money into a brand that’s of little significance even in the sport it operates in let alone beyond?

Only time will tell
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
  • May 7, 2018
  • #1,128
chiefdave said:
One questions. It was said elsewhere that the bond money is now gone and they are borrowing from the owner and other sources. Doesn't that mean they now also need to cover the interest payments to stand still?
Click to expand...

There is room for improvement .... whether they can or not I don't know.

As for the interest on the shareholder loan then that seems to have been waived and written off each year.

The direction of travel has been towards breakeven so far as a group.... I would think 2018 has been harder.
 

Moff

Well-Known Member
  • May 8, 2018
  • #1,129
italiahorse said:
Getting this life seems to make you miserable.
I'm retired so my life is one big holiday.
Click to expand...

I'm not miserable, couldn't be happier, I just pity half wits.

I'm retired too, if your memory was what it was you would recall discussing the fact I did at an earlier age than you.
Sounds like you need to engage your brain a bit more as it's lack of action is affecting your memory.
 
Reactions: Astute and ovduk78

Nick

Administrator
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,130
Safe to say the Telegraph have just chosen to completely ignore again. That's telling.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,131
Nick said:
Safe to say the Telegraph have just chosen to completely ignore again. That's telling.
Click to expand...

Perhaps because the details are almost 6 months old.
Move on.

also worth a read
Financial turmoil and discontent at Wasps, pull the other one – Andy Goode
 

Nick

Administrator
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,132
italiahorse said:
Perhaps because the details are almost 6 months old.
Move on.

also worth a read
Financial turmoil and discontent at Wasps, pull the other one – Andy Goode
Click to expand...

Worth a read from a Wasps employee giving it the "nothing to see here"? OK then.

I'd say straight up ignoring anything is a repeat of the ACL stuff.
 
Reactions: duffer

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,133
Moff said:
I'm not miserable, couldn't be happier, I just pity half wits.

I'm retired too, if your memory was what it was you would recall discussing the fact I did at an earlier age than you.
Sounds like you need to engage your brain a bit more as it's lack of action is affecting your memory.
Click to expand...
Sorry I forgot you beat me to retirement
I'm pretty consistent on my thoughts though.
CCFC need Wasps at the moment, them not being here won't work.
We won't reap the full benefits though while Sisu are here or as a minimum they stop fighting everybody that can help CCFC.
 

Terry Gibson's perm

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,134
That’s two minutes of my life I’m never getting back reading that rubbish, what were the issues with planning?
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,135
Nick said:
Worth a read from a Wasps employee giving it the "nothing to see here"? OK then.

I'd say straight up ignoring anything is a repeat of the ACL stuff.
Click to expand...

Ex Wasps employee.
Its called applying common sense and looking past Wasps at the Ricoh to see the full picture.
We need to work with them.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,136
Terry Gibson's perm said:
That’s two minutes of my life I’m never getting back reading that rubbish, what were the issues with planning?
Click to expand...
No idea, but Higgs was never really suitable for either CCFC or Wasps training grounds in my mind.
Too easy access for public and too small.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,137
italiahorse said:
No idea, but Higgs was never really suitable for either CCFC or Wasps training grounds in my mind.
Too easy access for public and too small.
Click to expand...

You said previously it was big enough for both clubs.
 
Reactions: Ian1779 and stupot07

Moff

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,138
italiahorse said:
No idea, but Higgs was never really suitable for either CCFC or Wasps training grounds in my mind.
Too easy access for public and too small.
Click to expand...

If that was the case why did Wasps have it as their number one choice? and plans were afoot to build their training ground at this location.

Further to this if it is too small why didn't Wasps choose another of the locations they have looked at? and why have they not chosen a new site since pulling out of the Higgs?

This argument does seem a little convenient and masks over the fact that Wasps are still borrowing a local amateur clubs facilities, and are no further forward in building their own training facility.
Is this poor management, poor planning, or financial issues? I would hazard all three.
 
Reactions: duffer and stupot07
S

SkyBlueZack

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,139
Didn't they purchase extra land at the Higgs from Severn Trent? Would that not make the 'it's too small' argument redundant?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,140
italiahorse said:
Ex Wasps employee.
Its called applying common sense and looking past Wasps at the Ricoh to see the full picture.
We need to work with them.
Click to expand...

When did they get rid of him?
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,141
italiahorse said:
Perhaps because the details are almost 6 months old.
Move on.

also worth a read
Financial turmoil and discontent at Wasps, pull the other one – Andy Goode
Click to expand...

Why are they £1.5m into an overdraft as well as in receipt of shareholder loans? This is Wasps with 365 day income from the stadium yet needing an overdraft to cover cashflow. Even Otium / CCFC haven't used an overdraft despite the club effectively having no regular income for the close season.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,142
Moff said:
If that was the case why did Wasps have it as their number one choice? and plans were afoot to build their training ground at this location.

Further to this if it is too small why didn't Wasps choose another of the locations they have looked at? and why have they not chosen a new site since pulling out of the Higgs?

This argument does seem a little convenient and masks over the fact that Wasps are still borrowing a local amateur clubs facilities, and are no further forward in building their own training facility.
Is this poor management, poor planning, or financial issues? I would hazard all three.
Click to expand...

Why did they spend an not insignificant sum on planning consultancy if it was always too small? Surely the planners would have advised that from the beginning.
 
Reactions: stupot07 and Moff

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,143
Personally I think there is some truth in the middle ground.

Wasps financials should not simply be ignored (as has been the case so far with the CT) but equally the "analysis" done by Reid though having some technical correctness is unbalanced and misleading designed to cause damage, there appears to have an agenda to it. Somewhere between the two lays useful detail

The finances of both clubs. Wasps or CCFC should be questioned and analysed in a balanced manner. People want to know what is really happening to the team they follow. Both local papers in my opinion have failed consistently over many years to really deal with the issues, preferring to cover themselves in perceived and fleeting glory of ,ultimately, inconsequential campaigns

We are never going to get all the details from either club. Bottom line is that both teams are improving but both are vulnerable. Things have not gone to plan for either on some things.

Yes Wasps plans for a training ground have not gone to plan. It would seem CCFC plans for an alternative home ground have not gone to plan either. Wasps have had problems with auditors (one to my mind serious but it will pass in time) we are told CCFC are closing in on new training facilities but nothing actually signed...... so it goes on

We are being played by PR on both/all sides.

Personally my take is that Wasps are continuing to improve but there have been problems along the way, and currently the cash flow is very tight. Similarly the situation at CCFC continues to improve in that the club is more positive in outlook because the team is doing better but some big issues remain unresolved. Both teams rely on their owners to exist, that has been known for years, no great revelation. I do not see imminent doom for either Wasps or CCFC
 
Reactions: duffer and italiahorse

Nick

Administrator
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,144
oldskyblue58 said:
Personally I think there is some truth in the middle ground.

Wasps financials should not simply be ignored (as has been the case so far with the CT) but equally the "analysis" done by Reid though having some technical correctness is unbalanced and misleading designed to cause damage, there appears to have an agenda to it. Somewhere between the two lays useful detail

The finances of both clubs. Wasps or CCFC should be questioned and analysed in a balanced manner. People want to know what is really happening to the team they follow. Both local papers in my opinion have failed consistently over many years to really deal with the issues, preferring to cover themselves in perceived and fleeting glory of ,ultimately, inconsequential campaigns

We are never going to get all the details from either club. Bottom line is that both teams are improving but both are vulnerable. Things have not gone to plan for either on some things.

Yes Wasps plans for a training ground have not gone to plan. It would seem CCFC plans for an alternative home ground have not gone to plan either. Wasps have had problems with auditors (one to my mind serious but it will pass in time) we are told CCFC are closing in on new training facilities but nothing actually signed...... so it goes on

We are being played by PR on both/all sides.

Personally my take is that Wasps are continuing to improve but there have been problems along the way, and currently the cash flow is very tight. Similarly the situation at CCFC continues to improve in that the club is more positive in outlook because the team is doing better but some big issues remain unresolved. Both teams rely on their owners to exist, that has been known for years, no great revelation. I do not see imminent doom for either Wasps or CCFC
Click to expand...

Didn't Wasps dub the move to make them the richest in Europe and to get away from relying on the other?

Is the home ground really comparable to the Higgs training centre?

I bet they do hope the statement from the auditors pass with time, that's why it's trying to be ignored / swept away as quickly as possible.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,145
fernandopartridge said:
Why did they spend an not insignificant sum on planning consultancy if it was always too small? Surely the planners would have advised that from the beginning.
Click to expand...

It’s just my opinion.
It’s probably financial reasons or perhaps where they are now is okay and gives them more time to sort out a more suitable site.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,146
Nick said:
Didn't Wasps dub the move to make them the richest in Europe and to get away from relying on the other?

Is the home ground really comparable to the Higgs training centre?

I bet they do hope the statement from the auditors pass with time, that's why it's trying to be ignored / swept away as quickly as possible.
Click to expand...

That’s the goal but it don’t happen overnight. Probably a bit of PR to sell the shares as well.
Nice to know what Sisu intent is even if it’s PR.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Nick

Administrator
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,147
italiahorse said:
It’s just my opinion.
It’s probably financial reasons or perhaps where they are now is okay and gives them more time to sort out a more suitable site.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

But the Higgs was the most suitable out of 17 sites they looked at before?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,148
italiahorse said:
That’s the goal but it don’t happen overnight. Probably a bit of PR to sell the shares as well.
Nice to know what Sisu intent is even if it’s PR.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

It was within months in 2015.

Maybe it was just a lie... Fisheresque.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,149
SkyBlueZack said:
Didn't they purchase extra land at the Higgs from Severn Trent? Would that not make the 'it's too small' argument redundant?
Click to expand...

I believe that’s gone for housing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,150
Nick said:
It was within months in 2015.

Maybe it was just a lie... Fisheresque.
Click to expand...

You expected it to be immediately ?
You surely need to build up the incomes first ?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,151
italiahorse said:
You expected it to be immediately ?
You surely need to build up the incomes first ?
Click to expand...

No, they did as I was just quoting them saying it would be within months back in 2015.....
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,152
Nick said:
No, they did as I was just quoting them saying it would be within months back in 2015.....
Click to expand...

Not possible.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,153
italiahorse said:
Not possible.
Click to expand...
So they lied?
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,154
Nick said:
So they lied?
Click to expand...
Yawn
 

Nick

Administrator
  • May 10, 2018
  • #1,155
italiahorse said:
Yawn
Click to expand...

Make up your mind, it's getting boring tying you in knots.
 
Reactions: duffer
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