USSR invades Ukraine. (3 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The Russian economy relies heavily on its gas/oil exports so that would've been a massive step to take. The West as a whole has given Ukraine just enough to sustain its war effort but never enough to win it.

Constant delays in getting equipment to Ukraine and so on whilst buying Russian gas and oil to fund its war in Ukraine.

What would you have done differently in response to the invasion?

 

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[Mucca Mad Boys]

What would you have done differently in response to the invasion?
From whose perspective?

In any case, a few things would’ve helped the Ukrainians:
- cut off economic ties with Russia in full
- don’t delay getting arms to Ukraine (Germany delayed shipments and at times blocked export of DE-supplied arms)
- quicker delivery of advanced weaponry
- allow Ukraine to use their equipment in Russian territory

The above often came too little, too late and it meant when Ukraine made a significant counter offensive, it never had the means to achieve victory.

Machiavelli put it quite well:

“A prince is also respected when he is either a true friend or a true enemy …When he declares himself in favour of one party against the other, without any reservation, this action will always be more advantageous than remaining neutral.”

We’ve not been true friends to Ukraine.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

What would you have done differently in response to the invasion?
From whose perspective?

In any case, a few things would’ve helped the Ukrainians:
- cut off economic ties with Russia in full
- don’t delay getting arms to Ukraine (Germany delayed shipments and at times blocked export of DE-supplied arms)
- quicker delivery of advanced weaponry
- allow Ukraine to use their equipment in Russian territory

The above often came too little, too late and it meant when Ukraine made a significant counter offensive, it never had the means to achieve victory.

Machiavelli put it quite well:

We’ve not been true friends to Ukraine.

Well from the Ukrainian perspective quite obviously. But yes I agree with those thoughts anyway.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Well from the Ukrainian perspective quite obviously. But yes I agree with those thoughts anyway.

My critique is that Europe and the US have allowed this conflict to become frozen. The possibility of a Ukrainian victory is remote.

Europe can pontificate about the peace plan being in Putin’s favour and so on but at this point, what is the alternative? Russia has ‘won’ the war and unless Ukraine can expel the Russian soldiers, will have to give up the occupied regions.

 

[PVA]

My critique is that Europe and the US have allowed this conflict to become frozen. The possibility of a Ukrainian victory is remote.

Yes agreed.

There was a period when Ukraine genuinely had a chance of winning, with the right support. But Europe and the US, for whatever reasons, shit the bed and the moment passed.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

My critique is that Europe and the US have allowed this conflict to become frozen. The possibility of a Ukrainian victory is remote.

Europe can pontificate about the peace plan being in Putin’s favour and so on but at this point, what is the alternative? Russia has ‘won’ the war and unless Ukraine can expel the Russian soldiers, will have to give up the occupied regions.

Well both sides have lost I think. The Russian objective of conquering Ukraine and deposing Zelensky hasn't been met, not even close, whereas Ukraine have failed to fully repel the invasion.

People including me who wanted a more forceful military response were told it would result in nuclear armageddon, so the next best thing was a stalemate to force Putin to the table. The only other option was to let him 'crack on with it' in the words of one poster. A peace where Ukraine concedes territory but the rest of it has NATO-equivalent protections against a future invasion is now the best it can hope for.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Well both sides have lost I think. The Russian objective of conquering Ukraine and deposing Zelensky hasn't been met, not even close, whereas Ukraine have failed to fully repel the invasion.

People including me who wanted a more forceful military response were told it would result in nuclear armageddon, so the next best thing was a stalemate to force Putin to the table. The only other option was to let him 'crack on with it' in the words of one poster. A peace where Ukraine concedes territory but the rest of it has NATO-equivalent protections against a future invasion is now the best it can hope for.

Has it?

They stand to annex 3-4 regions of eastern Ukraine to connect the mainland to Crimea. It’s come at tremendous cost and perhaps that has longer term ramifications (like Soviet-Afghan war)… In short, just because they didn’t achieve maximalist aims, doesn’t mean they haven’t won.

 

[PVA]

Has it?

They stand to annex 3-4 regions of eastern Ukraine to connect the mainland to Crimea. It’s come at tremendous cost and perhaps that has longer term ramifications (like Soviet-Afghan war)… In short, just because they didn’t achieve maximalist aims, doesn’t mean they haven’t won.

They planned to conquer the country and assassinate it's leader within days.

Almost 4 years later they've suffered a million casualties, gutted its stockpile of equipment, become a pariah state, lost some of their biggest oil & gas customers, severely damaged said oil & gas industries, fucked the economy, strengthened European defences, plus much more.

It's been a disaster.

If it's a win it's the absolute textbook definition of a pyrrhic victory.