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Underlying Data (1 Viewer)

  • Thread starter SeaSeeEffCee
  • Start date Feb 10, 2020
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theferret

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 12, 2020
  • #36
Find the xG data interesting. Don't know why people are taking offence to it. It's just a harmless distraction. I'm also sure that somebody as thorough and thoughtful as MR will use statistical analysis. Would be very surprised if he didn't.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Ste, win9nut and ccfchoi87
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wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 12, 2020
  • #37
theferret said:
Find the xG data interesting. Don't know why people are taking offence to it. It's just a harmless distraction. I'm also sure that somebody as thorough and thoughtful as MR will use statistical analysis. Would be very surprised if he didn't.
Click to expand...
Don't know why the OP is hostile either,it's not a Latin class.
FWIW the graphs are indisputable but what duration of data produces the table ?
He admits himself it's unreliable , guessing it can't take account of on the ground situational changes .
 

usskyblue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 12, 2020
  • #38
wingy said:
Don't know why the OP is hostile either,it's not a Latin class.
FWIW the graphs are indisputable but what duration of data produces the table ?
He admits himself it's unreliable , guessing it can't take account of on the ground situational changes .
Click to expand...

Ring of Steel is tickling his a-nus. Think Brokeback Mountain ...

 
Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
Reactions: wingy

Flying Fokker

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 12, 2020
  • #39
Senior Vick from Alicante said:
Were averaging 1.86 points per game which would see us second on 85 points with Rotherham top on 86. Forget the scoring tables and all that just keep grinding it out.
Click to expand...
I did that call and got us on 81 pts ish. You remember Bury? 44 Games this season.

A couple of months I used a similar calc 1 said 81 pts ( if the grey matter is functioning) and since then we have been consistent. At the time I thought we needed 2 pts per game to be in the top two.
 
Reactions: wingy

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 12, 2020
  • #40
SeaSeeEffCee said:
That's not how it works but I can see you're going to make absolute no attempt to understand.
Click to expand...

Call him a clown and he puts you on ignore
 

Winny the Bish

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 12, 2020
  • #41
Ring Of Steel said:
I’d like to politely ask someone to take these stupid charts, roll ‘em up real right, and stick ‘em where the sun don’t shine
Click to expand...
You should tell that to our scouting department; who have been using advanced data similar to this to sign players like Rose, Dabo and Walsh.
 
Reactions: Liquid Gold

Johhny Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 12, 2020
  • #42
skyblue93 said:
You should tell that to our scouting department; who have been using advanced data similar to this to sign players like Rose, Dabo and Walsh.
Click to expand...
Not to mention Kastaneer
 
Reactions: Ring Of Steel and Sky Blue Pete

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 12, 2020
  • #43
This data is what teams use to identify areas they need to improve upon and players that are worth signing. Our club has been noted as being particularly effective in utilising data. If you're praising our signings and dismissing the data you're massively missing the point. Enjoy your rattle and your bovril as much as you like but football has moved on and I for one am glad we're doing things well for a change.
 
Reactions: Skyblueweeman and Fergusons_Beard

Ring Of Steel

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 12, 2020
  • #44
Liquid Gold said:
This data is what teams use to identify areas they need to improve upon and players that are worth signing. Our club has been noted as being particularly effective in utilising data. If you're praising our signings and dismissing the data you're massively missing the point. Enjoy your rattle and your bovril as much as you like but football has moved on and I for one am glad we're doing things well for a change.
Click to expand...

I just find it interesting that the same guy posting data to support this highly scientific & empirical approach to signing players also goes around calling said same players garbage & saying they need to be binned ASAP.
 

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 12, 2020
  • #45
Ring Of Steel said:
I just find it interesting that the same guy posting data to support this highly scientific & empirical approach to signing players also goes around calling said same players garbage & saying they need to be binned ASAP.
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Your grudge doesn't impact upon what modern data analytics in football can inform upon.
 
Reactions: SeaSeeEffCee

win9nut

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 12, 2020
  • #46
SeaSeeEffCee said:
That's not how it works. It's a predictive model based over an extended period of time. Bookies use to to figure out long term trends, which are then supplemented by situational information in order to calculate odds. In terms of individuals games there are too many uncontrollable, unreliable elements to a game of football for the data to be blindly applied to singular games as xG over a single game often won't be properly reflected in the scoreline.

As for the table, the positions don't matter, it's not supposed to be there to say who should definitively be in what position, it simply shows how the table would look in every game followed it's individual xG (which won't happen most games for a myriad of reasons). The data is what is important and it's actually pretty good for us in terms of consistency. Ideally you want you numbers to be as close to what they really are as possible as that indicates that you're neither under or over achieving and are simply maintaining a consistent level. It's easy to look at teams like Accrington and think "how are they above us when we're doing better than then" and think the model doesn't work but that not how it's supposed to work. The Accrington example simply shows that despite having a positive xG to xGA ratio is most games this season they are struggling to convert that into actual points, and in that scenario would probably point to them being pretty inefficient going forward, and a bit too generous at the back. We all know that we're a better side than Accrington, that's not the point.

In retrospect I probably should have just posted the graphs and skipped the table as it is quite confusing/makes us look worse than we probably are. Would be nice if people didn't instantly dismiss stuff as rubbish just because it doesn't paint us to be the best team in the history of football though.
Click to expand...
Everyone knows that Bolton are the greatest team the world has ever seen...
 

SeaSeeEffCee

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 12, 2020
  • #47
Ring Of Steel said:
I just find it interesting that the same guy posting data to support this highly scientific & empirical approach to signing players also goes around calling said same players garbage & saying they need to be binned ASAP.
Click to expand...
Starting to feel quite flattered about this little obsession you have with me and what I post.

So what is it? You either think this data is useless and our club shouldn't be using it to help identify players/prepare for matches or did you only originally dismiss it because it was me who posted it?
 

Fergusons_Beard

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 13, 2020
  • #48
theferret said:
Find the xG data interesting. Don't know why people are taking offence to it. It's just a harmless distraction. I'm also sure that somebody as thorough and thoughtful as MR will use statistical analysis. Would be very surprised if he didn't.
Click to expand...

MR already does-

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/.../coventry-city-mark-robins-staff-16952367.amp

Paul Travis - Head of performance analyst

Chris Badlan - Head of recruitment

Stuart Benthom - Recruitment analyst

We are an EFL leader in this respect.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Ste

Mild-Mannered Janitor

Kindest Bloke on CCFC / Maker of CCFC Dreams
  • Feb 13, 2020
  • #49
He also calls on an external coach about positivity, winning mind, mental approach when under pressure about 4 times a year.
 
Reactions: Skyblueweeman and Sky Blue Pete

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 13, 2020
  • #50
Liquid Gold said:
This data is what teams use to identify areas they need to improve upon and players that are worth signing. Our club has been noted as being particularly effective in utilising data. If you're praising our signings and dismissing the data you're massively missing the point. Enjoy your rattle and your bovril as much as you like but football has moved on and I for one am glad we're doing things well for a change.
Click to expand...

Not all data is equal. Also not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted. Any analysis without an understanding that all models are wrong isn’t worth the Jupyter notebook it’s written in.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

Johhny Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 13, 2020
  • #51
Does all this mean that they’ve taken Chris Coleman’s dartboard out of the Manager’s office?
 
Reactions: Skyblueweeman and Sky Blue Pete
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 13, 2020
  • #52
SeaSeeEffCee said:
Starting to feel quite flattered about this little obsession you have with me and what I post.

So what is it? You either think this data is useless and our club shouldn't be using it to help identify players/prepare for matches or did you only originally dismiss it because it was me who posted it?
Click to expand...

His high horse is made of steel he has no need for such petty distractions
 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 14, 2020
  • #53
I'll just leave this here.

This engine is the example which they have used in New York's Museum of Modern Art.


Just a note. It is not showing the herustics in themselves but the paths used in its decision making processes, and the decisions making in itself for each move.

This engine In the video is being ran on some decent processors.

The latest iteration of the engine is here. Thinking Machine 6

Very pretty.

The engine though is probably from the early 80s but has been adapted with a very artistic gui.

The latest engines are beasts by their own nature.

One of the main ones can be found here. Houdini Chess Engine
 
Last edited: Feb 14, 2020

cochese

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 14, 2020
  • #54
I've always felt our position flatters how we've played over the last few months. Too many close games, last minute goals (both ways)...

But you can't argue with the results. Only lost 3 league games all season!

I'll probably be tuning it at 1:30am again this week.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete and Mild-Mannered Janitor

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 14, 2020
  • #55
Gained 4 points on 92 one week and 84 mins the next. What machines and data analytics doesn’t cover is belief and favour
 

CovInEssex

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 14, 2020
  • #56
Whilst they don't take luck into account, I wouldn't say we've been lucky.

We've deserved those wins.

We haven't smash and grabbed anyone this season.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 14, 2020
  • #57
CovInEssex said:
Whilst they don't take luck into account, I wouldn't say we've been lucky.

We've deserved those wins.

We haven't smash and grabbed anyone this season.
Click to expand...
Nah favour rather than luck. Also belief is a huge thing.
 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 14, 2020
  • #58
Sky Blue Pete said:
Gained 4 points on 92 one week and 84 mins the next. What machines and data analytics doesn’t cover is belief and favour
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. The subjective viewpoint is as important, if not more, then the objective analysis.

This is often overlooked and almost forgotten about.

Objective Vs. Subjective Data: How to tell the difference in Nursing | NURSING.com

I get extra points here for finding diarrhoea in an example.
 
Reactions: Iancro

Skyblueweeman

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 14, 2020
  • #59
Philosorapter said:
I'll just leave this here.

This engine is the example which they have used in New York's Museum of Modern Art.


Just a note. It is not showing the herustics in themselves but the paths used in its decision making processes, and the decisions making in itself for each move.

This engine In the video is being ran on some decent processors.

The latest iteration of the engine is here. Thinking Machine 6

Very pretty.

The engine though is probably from the early 80s but has been adapted with a very artistic gui.

The latest engines are beasts by their own nature.

One of the main ones can be found here. Houdini Chess Engine
Click to expand...

@Nick On the left hand side, under our Avatars - where it says things like 'Well Known Member' etc, can you update Philosorapters to something like 'Forum Statto'?
 
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