I'm distressed to see that over the past few weeks attention has shifted from SISU to Thorn. I accept that Thorn is not the manager to move us forward, however that fact that we are doomed to league 1 is thanks to SISU. We don't have enough money to get a good manager in, we don't have enough to buy decent players, we don't even have enough for our stadium. We should accept our fate and work to rebuild, starting by smashing down the brick wall that is SISU!
Umm...Remember sisu... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jto123
- Start date
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Nah it's much more "hip" to blame the manager for everything now. Blaming SISU is so last year.
We'll_live_and_die
Moderator
SISwho? THORN OUT!!!!
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
You know how it went NLHWC: Ranson was 2009, Coleman was 2010, SISU was 2011, and Thorn is 2012. Keep up!
Otis
Well-Known Member
Attention hasn't shifted from Sisu to Thorn.
Sisu to blame for our finances.
Sisu to blame for no investment.
Sisu to blame for our small squad.
Sisu to blame for selling players.
Sisu to blame for installing a scout as manager.
Sisu not to blame for the tactics on the football field.
Sisu not to blame for the way we set up our stall for away games.
Blame for our situation? Would guess as 85% Sisu, 15% Thorn. (haven't mentioned the players there because that comes under the umbrella of Sisu not bringing in enough quality. The players are obviously in some way to blame for the silly school boy defending and daft goals, but as I say, on the whole that comes under the remit of Sisu's tenure)
Sisu to blame for our finances.
Sisu to blame for no investment.
Sisu to blame for our small squad.
Sisu to blame for selling players.
Sisu to blame for installing a scout as manager.
Sisu not to blame for the tactics on the football field.
Sisu not to blame for the way we set up our stall for away games.
Blame for our situation? Would guess as 85% Sisu, 15% Thorn. (haven't mentioned the players there because that comes under the umbrella of Sisu not bringing in enough quality. The players are obviously in some way to blame for the silly school boy defending and daft goals, but as I say, on the whole that comes under the remit of Sisu's tenure)
ashbyjan
Well-Known Member
Whilst SISU have totally mismanaged the club over the past 4 years and have undoubtedly dealt Thorn a poor hand with a sub-strength team he has proven himself to be a poor manager. At this moment in time what would have more effect on team performances and might keep us up? A change of owners or a change of manager? Even if Hoffman did come in tomorrow what difference would that make to the performances on the pitch? If Thorn goes and a proper manager who understand motivation, tactics, substitutions etc comes in then that could well have a positive effect on performances and results and may keep us up, therefore whilst no one is in anyway absolving SISU the short term answer to our problems would be to change our manager.
But SISU are to blame for the tactics on the football field for as you said "Installing a scout as manager". If they invested we could get in a manager of some quality.
Otis
Well-Known Member
I thought people were saying Thorn was doing well and no-one could do better?
I'm confsued.
:thinking about:
Besides, whichever 11 go out on the football field, that then comes down to how the manager sets out the formation and tactics. No-one is denying that Thorn has made quite a few mistakes.
I'm confsued.
:thinking about:
Besides, whichever 11 go out on the football field, that then comes down to how the manager sets out the formation and tactics. No-one is denying that Thorn has made quite a few mistakes.
covcity4life
Well-Known Member
lets blame sisu for everythingggggggggg
EleanorRigby
New Member
But last week Andy Thorn was good !!
sky_blue_up_north
Well-Known Member
Personally I don't blam SISU for everything, far more blame is at the door of Bryan Richardson he screwed us more that anyone...
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Who is to blame ...... just some of the things that come to mind and i am not going to say it is all AT’s fault or for that matter SISU’s
SISU
they got their sums wrong from the start
they initially lost control of the Board and CEO
they never communicated any plan they may have had
they should have set about balancing the books from the start
they didnt properly understand the business and its connection to the fans from the start
they thought they could do things on the cheap, including players and manager
they have been silent yet arrogantly stubborn
Never properly got rid of the situation and baggage they bought into
I do not buy into the fact that they should just throw money at the team in the hope that the team may become successful. They are absolutely right to control costs but that is tempered by the lack of ambition that has hit the top line. Football is about to hit the buffers in my opinion and we cannot live beyond our means expecting either out going owners to write off debt or new owners to have bottomless pockets. At some point someone had to get to grips with it and it was always going to be painful. Finance and sustainability of the business is essential to any team – the same problems face any new owner, think some people need to wake up and look at the facts – the only way we stay in business right now is by cutting costs and selling players, (that will be the same under any new owner unless it is a mega rich Russian or oil sheik – lest we forget who owned Pompey etc )
The Board
nothing changes does it, often too arrogant when dealing with others
no clear communication
seemingly lacking in a direction
very few actually properly qualified in running a football club or multi million pound budget
too many changes, leading to confusion and misdirection
some here hail certain folk as heroes and saviours but just remember their part in the last 10 years of trouble and strife
Manager
playing experience counts but in the modern game it takes more than that. AT started as manager without even a basic coaching qualification. He was always going to struggle, there is more to it than picking a team and sticking to one tactic
It comes to something when he is hailed as a great manager by some on the back of 10 results last season when we took 14 out of 30 points. Perhaps that demonstrates how low are expectations are becoming. If we use those 10 games to say he is good then it is reasonable, even with the limitations he has had, to use 30 games this season to say he isnt so good
Seemingly nice guy but to be honest we need ruthless.
Too rigid in his tactics and can be slow to react to situations
Sets up to play safe pretty football in our half that is largely ineffective in achieving the whole aim of the game – to score more than the opposition
Sets team up to play far too deep making it harder to score and inviting pressure on to the defence because the Diamond is too big and our midfield cannot cope. Has changed system recently but please explain AT for example why with a scratch team against Leeds we play on the front foot higher up the pitch yet against a poor team like Forest we play the midfield deep inviting pressure on and isolating the strikers - the results in those games make the point
Has made a squad match a system rather than a system match the assets in the squad
Doesnt change the game very often in the decisions he makes, often leaving it too late. Seems caught in the headlights to me or is it just a token change in the 85th minute to say he tried something
We focus on the lack of players or lack of quality so it can’t be poor andy’s fault his hands are tied. Well when we had the “quality” they didnt achieve did they. To quote Sir Alex “the most important person in a football club is the manager” over to you Andy. We have matched many teams for 90 minutes home and away but our results are dismal, so the players must have something and it is only right we look at the manager and staff also
Was always going to make mistakes and because he was a novice was going to make more mistakes than expected, we did not have the time or luxury of him learning the basics on the job. Wrong man from the start imo
That said those placing the blame only on AT’s shoulders are wrong to to do so – it simply is not all his fault but a chunk of it is.
He isnt going to get millions to spend – under these owners or the next the club cannot afford it, please wake up to the present financial realities of football. By the time he gets any money he will have contributed to us playing the 3rd division
Players
where to start ? the only bright spots is the emergence of the youngsters, the form of Keogh and the arrival of Nimely and Norwood. The rest is pretty dire
The senior players are too comfortable with their pay packets and under achieve
There is no consistency in the level of performance, seemingly little pride in wearing the shirt
There appears to be a lack of fitness, comparing the squad AB had to now it seems pretty obvious
Too many basic mistakes. Too often the finger is pointed at the youngsters but in reality it is the older heads and they fail to talk young inexperienced players through to compound it
Do they players play so deep because they choose to ignore the manager (problem if it is) or because they are told to
We can match most other teams but they dont have the mental strength to see it through
Why dont they rise to the occasion? There are some decent players in that squad imo and better than the awful points total we have.
Any substantial weakness in any one of the above puts the club at risk - it is hard to argue that there is not great weakness in all of the above
The whole set up on and off the pitch is a disaster. It isnt a question of apportioning blame – all the above are to blame. The club is crying out for a strong dominant character to lead it, whether on the Board, as manager or captain of the team (need at least two of those) . instead we have wishy washy inconsistent crisis management. No wonder we are heading for the trap door !
SISU
they got their sums wrong from the start
they initially lost control of the Board and CEO
they never communicated any plan they may have had
they should have set about balancing the books from the start
they didnt properly understand the business and its connection to the fans from the start
they thought they could do things on the cheap, including players and manager
they have been silent yet arrogantly stubborn
Never properly got rid of the situation and baggage they bought into
I do not buy into the fact that they should just throw money at the team in the hope that the team may become successful. They are absolutely right to control costs but that is tempered by the lack of ambition that has hit the top line. Football is about to hit the buffers in my opinion and we cannot live beyond our means expecting either out going owners to write off debt or new owners to have bottomless pockets. At some point someone had to get to grips with it and it was always going to be painful. Finance and sustainability of the business is essential to any team – the same problems face any new owner, think some people need to wake up and look at the facts – the only way we stay in business right now is by cutting costs and selling players, (that will be the same under any new owner unless it is a mega rich Russian or oil sheik – lest we forget who owned Pompey etc )
The Board
nothing changes does it, often too arrogant when dealing with others
no clear communication
seemingly lacking in a direction
very few actually properly qualified in running a football club or multi million pound budget
too many changes, leading to confusion and misdirection
some here hail certain folk as heroes and saviours but just remember their part in the last 10 years of trouble and strife
Manager
playing experience counts but in the modern game it takes more than that. AT started as manager without even a basic coaching qualification. He was always going to struggle, there is more to it than picking a team and sticking to one tactic
It comes to something when he is hailed as a great manager by some on the back of 10 results last season when we took 14 out of 30 points. Perhaps that demonstrates how low are expectations are becoming. If we use those 10 games to say he is good then it is reasonable, even with the limitations he has had, to use 30 games this season to say he isnt so good
Seemingly nice guy but to be honest we need ruthless.
Too rigid in his tactics and can be slow to react to situations
Sets up to play safe pretty football in our half that is largely ineffective in achieving the whole aim of the game – to score more than the opposition
Sets team up to play far too deep making it harder to score and inviting pressure on to the defence because the Diamond is too big and our midfield cannot cope. Has changed system recently but please explain AT for example why with a scratch team against Leeds we play on the front foot higher up the pitch yet against a poor team like Forest we play the midfield deep inviting pressure on and isolating the strikers - the results in those games make the point
Has made a squad match a system rather than a system match the assets in the squad
Doesnt change the game very often in the decisions he makes, often leaving it too late. Seems caught in the headlights to me or is it just a token change in the 85th minute to say he tried something
We focus on the lack of players or lack of quality so it can’t be poor andy’s fault his hands are tied. Well when we had the “quality” they didnt achieve did they. To quote Sir Alex “the most important person in a football club is the manager” over to you Andy. We have matched many teams for 90 minutes home and away but our results are dismal, so the players must have something and it is only right we look at the manager and staff also
Was always going to make mistakes and because he was a novice was going to make more mistakes than expected, we did not have the time or luxury of him learning the basics on the job. Wrong man from the start imo
That said those placing the blame only on AT’s shoulders are wrong to to do so – it simply is not all his fault but a chunk of it is.
He isnt going to get millions to spend – under these owners or the next the club cannot afford it, please wake up to the present financial realities of football. By the time he gets any money he will have contributed to us playing the 3rd division
Players
where to start ? the only bright spots is the emergence of the youngsters, the form of Keogh and the arrival of Nimely and Norwood. The rest is pretty dire
The senior players are too comfortable with their pay packets and under achieve
There is no consistency in the level of performance, seemingly little pride in wearing the shirt
There appears to be a lack of fitness, comparing the squad AB had to now it seems pretty obvious
Too many basic mistakes. Too often the finger is pointed at the youngsters but in reality it is the older heads and they fail to talk young inexperienced players through to compound it
Do they players play so deep because they choose to ignore the manager (problem if it is) or because they are told to
We can match most other teams but they dont have the mental strength to see it through
Why dont they rise to the occasion? There are some decent players in that squad imo and better than the awful points total we have.
Any substantial weakness in any one of the above puts the club at risk - it is hard to argue that there is not great weakness in all of the above
The whole set up on and off the pitch is a disaster. It isnt a question of apportioning blame – all the above are to blame. The club is crying out for a strong dominant character to lead it, whether on the Board, as manager or captain of the team (need at least two of those) . instead we have wishy washy inconsistent crisis management. No wonder we are heading for the trap door !
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Not bad Otis only took 8 minutes - I hate cutting and pasting on here!!!!
covcity4life
Well-Known Member
well said OSB,its a collective problems thats killing the club
yet some wish to ONLY blame sisu,makes no sense
yet some wish to ONLY blame sisu,makes no sense
Otis
Well-Known Member
Totally agree.
Bad ownership
Novice manager most probably out of his depth.
Let me pose a question to everyone. If you knew you were going to be in a relegation stuggle for the season would you then put a complete novice at the helm and expect him to be able to steer a team away from a relegation dogfight?
I do have sympathy for Thorn. Even if he does have something about him in the managerial ability stakes, it's hardly fair for his first job in management to be in charge of a team labelled odds on certs for relegation and with a tiny squad now is it! This season needed a wise old head taking the reins. And before anyone says we don't have money, I am obvioulsy talking about pre-season and we could have utilised some of the money we saved/got from players leaving/being sold.
Bad ownership
Novice manager most probably out of his depth.
Let me pose a question to everyone. If you knew you were going to be in a relegation stuggle for the season would you then put a complete novice at the helm and expect him to be able to steer a team away from a relegation dogfight?
I do have sympathy for Thorn. Even if he does have something about him in the managerial ability stakes, it's hardly fair for his first job in management to be in charge of a team labelled odds on certs for relegation and with a tiny squad now is it! This season needed a wise old head taking the reins. And before anyone says we don't have money, I am obvioulsy talking about pre-season and we could have utilised some of the money we saved/got from players leaving/being sold.
ashbyjan
Well-Known Member
I seem to remember at the end of last season there was a general clamour from fans for Thorn to be given the job, SISU listened and gave him the job - now a few months on the clamour is for Thorn to go and why on earth did SISU give him the job in the first place. He got the job based on the fact that after Hoofroyd the team played something resembling football, he was the fans choice and he was cheap. With hindsight are we surprised he is struggling? Yes we lost some good players in the summer and now we have some poor players but we have some OK ones and in my opinion a better manager would have them better organized, better motivated, deploy better tactics, use substitutions more effectively and not have us in the current mess.
When was the last time we looked dangerous from a corner - not rocket science just needs some coaching and organising. Crossing? Crap in the extreme - is it ever practised? SISU are to blame for many of the ills at our club and maybe if as fans we (me included) had pointed the finger at Thorn earlier instead of feeling sorry for him for losing so many players SISU would have listened and got rid of him earlier when there was more chance of salvation.
When was the last time we looked dangerous from a corner - not rocket science just needs some coaching and organising. Crossing? Crap in the extreme - is it ever practised? SISU are to blame for many of the ills at our club and maybe if as fans we (me included) had pointed the finger at Thorn earlier instead of feeling sorry for him for losing so many players SISU would have listened and got rid of him earlier when there was more chance of salvation.
Covstu
Well-Known Member
so in theory if he keeps us up he is doing a good job!
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Was never convinced when he was appointed but was prepared to give him a chance, i think i did that. Am also mindful of the financial restrictions placed on him - but whats more important having a particular manager or having a club at all ? Hind sight is a wondeful thing I guess. It does point to lack of leadership at the club
covcity4life
Well-Known Member
he played some good footy last year but we really miss king and westwood....but fact is a good manager would find a way around it,noone is expecting top half finish but we should be doing better than we are,its not like barnsley and watford have bettersquads than us,just good management
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Think you would have to give him some of the credit yes - only fair if he is getting the stick now isnt it ? However it would also seem to prove that the squad was good enough and that the owners were justified in cutting costs and budget, that it should not cost as much to stay in this division
Or would it all be a fluke and none of that would be true !
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Otis
Well-Known Member
If he keeps us up he will have done a good job.
But, if we are good enough to stay up then we shouldn't have been in the bottom 3 since last October and 7 or 8 points adrift at the bottom since Christmas.
If he keeps us up that points to him probably getting it wrong perviously but finally getting it right in the end.
Not sure that is a good recipe for management. Maybe he will become a good manager in time. Not so sure that time is what we have though.
But, if we are good enough to stay up then we shouldn't have been in the bottom 3 since last October and 7 or 8 points adrift at the bottom since Christmas.
If he keeps us up that points to him probably getting it wrong perviously but finally getting it right in the end.
Not sure that is a good recipe for management. Maybe he will become a good manager in time. Not so sure that time is what we have though.
Sky Blue Sheepy
New Member
I think our recent home form shows we can win games so, when we're so poor away, it's hard to look past Thorn imo
skybluesteve76
New Member
That's because thorn is the problem!
All the best
All the best
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
I'd interpret it as:
a) Having more easier games
b) The youngsters gaining experience and being slightly more savvy
c) The re-jig with Lukas, ROD and McPake going out for Norwood, Nimely and Herman has slightly strengthened us. Sure Herman is crocked, but Mcpake would have been too!
All that is probably irrelevent, as I expect us to go down, and have expected us to finish bottom since August based on the lack of quality, experience, pace and depth in the squad.
Otis
Well-Known Member
But why are we strong at home but so piss poor away. Just doesn't add up.
And you talk of easier games. Well there was nothing easier than Forest away on Saturday. They were on a terrible run and had scored just 1 goal in 8 games. Brighton away too were there for the taking after a terrible run. Peterborough away too shouldn't have been a tough game.
And you talk of easier games. Well there was nothing easier than Forest away on Saturday. They were on a terrible run and had scored just 1 goal in 8 games. Brighton away too were there for the taking after a terrible run. Peterborough away too shouldn't have been a tough game.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Brighton were horrendous at the Amex, I've no idea how we lost that one.
Colonel Mustard
New Member
Ownership and management need to be judged separately. Simple as that. Neither should be used as a bodyguard for the other.
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Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
But there's no doubt that the failings of one impinge on the success of the other. They are not entirely separate issues.
BackRoomRummermill
Well-Known Member
SISU are very much to blame no doubt
But Thorn has to take a share
But Thorn has to take a share
Colonel Mustard
New Member
A manager needn't be judged on trophies won, playoffs reached, championships secured, or even relegations suffered. He just needs to be judged on what he does with what he's got. That's what creates the separation from ownership.
To that extent, AT rightly gets cut a lot of slack because he doesn't have a lot to work with. Nobody expected much more than a relegation battle. The argument that I and many others are making is that AT fails to measure up to even those very minimal standards.
