Time to put ACL anger to one side (12 Viewers)

[Grendel]

I agree with some things. However, I don't think they do need to own the management company. Again, yes of course it helps, and the more the club owns the more revenue it will create for us. With regards to the gates, the Ricoh was built for a premiership team. Obviously that fell on its arse. So yes with regards to our league 1 level (even low end of championship) 16-18,000 would be more beneficial. IF WE OWN IT. 3 years of losses over a lifetime would be a small price to pay, however surely even you realise it is going to be more than 3 years now? Then you have to take in to account the fact you have lost fans over a 3-5 year period due to playing in Northampton, and also due to the fact that the new stadium will technically be outside of coventry. So really a stadium with 10,000 would suffice. Is that where we really want to be though?

There is no point arguing about the rent structure. We do not know the full ins and outs of the full rent structure over the years. Simply to me, ACL offered £400,000 and it was not accepted.

Paying £150,000 is obviously better than paying £400,000. However if you look at potential revenues from ticket sales at the Ricoh compared to sixfields then it is a different story. With regards to the debts incurred. Well SISU took over in 2007. So for arguments sake, lets include the rent paid for 2006/7 onwards. Excluding last year because they didn't pay. Which makes 6 years rent of £1.2 million. That makes £7.2 million. Now lost revenue will include everything else so F&B, concerts, hotel etc. No idea how I would go about working all that out but I would estimate what £10 million? Random figure I know but for argument sake that is £10 million revenue lost and £7.2 million paid in rent. £17.2 million they could have had themselves if they had owned the Ricoh. Hardly covers this £53 million or so debt JS has been talking about does it.

Truth is you are wrong. The fault lies with all parties involved. I do appreciate however that for once you have put something forward that I can actually debate against

Imagine your next door neighbour was a benign old fellow. You got to know him and befriended him. You invited him for tea now and again.

Them all of a sudden he was arrested for grotesque war crimes. What would your view be? The past is the past or would your view alter?

Ultimately we all know the answer. So your glib assertion that the last is the past is not justifiable.

The rent agreement was an abomination. It showed the council, ACL and Higgs' true hand. They wanted the club to pay and get no benefit. The minute it was signed the club were subjected to a slow lingering death.

To make matters worse they then thought they could outmanoeuvre them in the courts. Given sisu's history this was total folly. Mutton v seppella? Please. So now they are legally outmanoeuvred.

Unless the owners get the Ricoh the club will cease to exist at the end of the year. No question.

 

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[skybluetony176]

ACL gone bye, bye? Being quiet doesn't mean they have gone.

SISU own the club, they're not going anywhere, why's that so hard to understand? You also say SISU still hurting the club, however I can't see that there was a viable and realistic alternative to what we have?

ACL have no influence anymore on the club and the club have stated "we have moved on", so yes they have gone bye bye. unless shitsu admit the move to Northampton was wrong and re-open dialog with ACL with a view to a move back to the Ricoh. this is why we have to exert pressure on shitsu and anger at ACL (at this moment in time) is pointless, it serves no purpose. hence my OP.

you roll over and let shitsu kick you in the balls if you like, i don't understand that. and if you really cant see another realistic alternative to what we have i feel for you.

 

[LB87ccfc]

Didnt supercow say we would NEVER return to the Ricoh unless she was handed ownership ( her target all along to gain control and then immediately put us on the market) , therefore as we ALL know deep down that ACL / CCC will NEVER let this happen, is it not time to forget the Ricoh.

After all, she is known for being a stubborn shit in the business world and she sees us as a business not a football club.

 

[skybluetony176]

Okay and how does that help to a long term aim of owning our ground?

it would have helped a lot more than moving to sixfields. "ooo but they have the pie money at sixfields". so fucking what, they need to sell 1 hell of a lot of pies to make up for the shortfall in gate receipts. its a classic case of biting of your nose to spite your face, its pathetic and its hurting my club more in this season so far then ACL ever did.

 

[RPHunt]

Imagine your next door neighbour was a benign old fellow.....Them all of a sudden he was arrested for grotesque war crimes.

Who are you talking about here Grendel? Has PWKH somehow transformed into Adolf Eichmann in your deranged world? What next, the showers at the Ricoh had a secondary, more sinister purpose?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Some of the logic on this thread is utterly bizarre!

Let's go along with the we've moved on line, so let's accept we're in Northampton for eternity;

Let's just pressure one side to make a deal, because one sided deals always turn out well don't they!

Let's once again ignore any sensible conversation about anything, and just decide what we know to be right!

 

[CCFCSteve]

Imagine your next door neighbour was a benign old fellow. You got to know him and befriended him. You invited him for tea now and again.

Them all of a sudden he was arrested for grotesque war crimes. What would your view be? The past is the past or would your view alter?

Ultimately we all know the answer. So your glib assertion that the last is the past is not justifiable.

The rent agreement was an abomination. It showed the council, ACL and Higgs' true hand. They wanted the club to pay and get no benefit. The minute it was signed the club were subjected to a slow lingering death.

To make matters worse they then thought they could outmanoeuvre them in the courts. Given sisu's history this was total folly. Mutton v seppella? Please. So now they are legally outmanoeuvred.

Unless the owners get the Ricoh the club will cease to exist at the end of the year. No question.

I don't know why but I always read your sisu sided arguments, however, surely you'll appreciate that people's arguments, negotiations, offers change over time depending on their position. The fact is there was/is no reason for sisu not to return to coventry except pure greed in trying to get the Ricoh for nothing. It's wrong pure and simple.

The rent at £1.2m p.a. was wrong, but acl have moved a long way from that sum yet sisu won't return to the table.

You surely can't condone what they are doing to the club.

 

[LB87ccfc]

These kind of threads are becoming boring now, so much so I cannot be bothered to read anymore, for me its all about the away games, and if you cannot go due to finance then fair enough, but if you can afford to go, then go get there by hook or by crook and lets fill everywhere we go, no reason why we shouldn't considering we have (including me) 9,000+ stayaways

 

[shmmeee]

Imagine your next door neighbour was a benign old fellow. You got to know him and befriended him. You invited him for tea now and again.

Them all of a sudden he was arrested for grotesque war crimes. What would your view be? The past is the past or would your view alter?

Ultimately we all know the answer. So your glib assertion that the last is the past is not justifiable.

The rent agreement was an abomination. It showed the council, ACL and Higgs' true hand. They wanted the club to pay and get no benefit. The minute it was signed the club were subjected to a slow lingering death.

To make matters worse they then thought they could outmanoeuvre them in the courts. Given sisu's history this was total folly. Mutton v seppella? Please. So now they are legally outmanoeuvred.

Unless the owners get the Ricoh the club will cease to exist at the end of the year. No question.

Put the hyperbole down. £1.2m/year in rent did not and could not subject the club to a slow death. Years of mismanagement on and off the pitch did that. Good managers weren't backed and those backed weren't good managers.

You want a death knell, it's the collapse of ITV digital and Championship funding along with it. Or the waste of the parachute payments we made. Or the string of shit tin pot managers we hired.

The club should never have sold their half of ACL, that's no-one's fault but the club's and Higgs should be praised for actually offering a fair deal that left the club a route back. The council have done nothing wrong here, no matter how much you yearn to hate a politician or two. The club made continual bad decisions and has asked repeatedly to be bailed out for said bad decisions. We've always been bailed out until the club decided they were too big for the city and left.

I agree with your last sentence though. Though I can't see the FL allowing us to just disappear, I actually hope Sisu do give up and try to liquidate us. Let's get this whole mess over with. We're no less in debt now than in 2007 and a division lower. The millstone of relegation debt has been around the club for over a decade and it needs removing one way or another. In true CCFC style we've managed to be the only club that gets liquidated and still has £60m of debt. Maybe next time they'll do it right.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Though I can't see the FL allowing us to just disappear.

They let Aldershot and Maidstone just disappear...

 

[Grendel]

it would have helped a lot more than moving to sixfields. "ooo but they have the pie money at sixfields". so fucking what, they need to sell 1 hell of a lot of pies to make up for the shortfall in gate receipts. its a classic case of biting of your nose to spite your face, its pathetic and its hurting my club more in this season so far then ACL ever did.

You are starting to sound desperate. Wake up. Sisu (sorry SHITSU) hold all the aces. Face the ultimate question. Do you want the club to survive? If yes then back them in the quest to own the Ricoh. If no, fair enough - just accept the club is dead - but please don't cry about it - you picked sides and you sided against the football club.

 

[skybluetony176]

You are starting to sound desperate. Wake up. Sisu (sorry SHITSU) hold all the aces. Face the ultimate question. Do you want the club to survive? If yes then back them in the quest to own the Ricoh. If no, fair enough - just accept the club is dead - but please don't cry about it - you picked sides and you sided against the football club.

that's a nice crystal ball you have there Grendel. is it calibrated? How does this all end? yes i have picked sides and i believe i have sided with the football team.

shitsu (glad to see you've caught on) don't hold all the aces. we are not cramming sixfields every "home" game, that's 1 ace they don't hold. we are not clearing the wheel barrow out of merchandise, that's 1 ace they don't hold. the club's sponsors have left in droves. that's 1 ace they don't hold. there is no positive news stories in the footballing press regarding shitsu, that's 1 ace they don't hold. how many aces are there in a pack of cards exactly?

 

[Tonylinc]

You are starting to sound desperate. Wake up. Sisu (sorry SHITSU) hold all the aces. Face the ultimate question. Do you want the club to survive? If yes then back them in the quest to own the Ricoh. If no, fair enough - just accept the club is dead - but please don't cry about it - you picked sides and you sided against the football club.

A very good evening to you Grendel. Nobody is siding against the club. Unless I have got this totally wrong we are siding on the side of fairness and equity.

 

[lewys33]

Imagine your next door neighbour was a benign old fellow. You got to know him and befriended him. You invited him for tea now and again.

Them all of a sudden he was arrested for grotesque war crimes. What would your view be? The past is the past or would your view alter?

Ultimately we all know the answer. So your glib assertion that the last is the past is not justifiable.

The rent agreement was an abomination. It showed the council, ACL and Higgs' true hand. They wanted the club to pay and get no benefit. The minute it was signed the club were subjected to a slow lingering death.

To make matters worse they then thought they could outmanoeuvre them in the courts. Given sisu's history this was total folly. Mutton v seppella? Please. So now they are legally outmanoeuvred.

Unless the owners get the Ricoh the club will cease to exist at the end of the year. No question.

Your arguement above has absolutely no relevance. ACL and rent compared to a neighbour commiting war crimes? Jesus ......

I agree ACL tried to out-smart SISU. But so did SISU with ACL. Realistically has either side won?

 

[James Smith]

Do you think any of that has anything to do with CCFC?

No idea hence why I said

although we don't know the reasons for those withdrawals.

They could be for any number of reasons - we don't know though, which is what I posted in the quote above in my original post.

 

[James Smith]

Peppercorn rent to CCC, cut out ACL as they go out of business/are bought out, 150 year lease direct to club.

What's not to like about that?

I've been saying for a while that maybe £100k rent for a long ACL type lease where the profits from the stadium are going to the club for use by the club makes sense to me. Maybe the council take the half until the loan is paid off and the Higgs get their money back plus interest in a lump sum or summat like that.

There just seems to be something odd about this almost one track desire to own the freehold that Joy has. However she and Tim have said a new stadium is in the planning so we don't need to worry about ACL.

 

[ohitsaidwalker king power]

You are starting to sound desperate. Wake up. Sisu (sorry SHITSU) hold all the aces. Face the ultimate question. Do you want the club to survive? If yes then back them in the quest to own the Ricoh. If no, fair enough - just accept the club is dead - but please don't cry about it - you picked sides and you sided against the football club.

Should you not be backing them by going to Sixfields then Grendel?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I've been saying for a while that maybe £100k rent for a long ACL type lease where the profits from the stadium are going to the club for use by the club makes sense to me. Maybe the council take the half until the loan is paid off and the Higgs get their money back plus interest in a lump sum or summat like that.

£5 a year, club takes over everything, everyone's a winner.

Interesting, incidentally, the Northampton deal.

In December the council agreed to give the club a 150-year lease for just 1 [I assume it means £1, but tbh it doesn't help work out the details when there's an enigmatic '1' in there!], which means that while the council still owns the ground, Cobblers are responsible for its running costs.

Councillors say this will save taxpayers about 300,000 a year and see more cash ploughed back in to improve standards and offer more services.

 

[Grendel]

Your arguement above has absolutely no relevance. ACL and rent compared to a neighbour commiting war crimes? Jesus ......

I agree ACL tried to out-smart SISU. But so did SISU with ACL. Realistically has either side won?

It has every relevance. Your argument is totally based on let's ignore the past. The damage has been done by the events in the past.

 

[Jack Griffin]

You are starting to sound desperate. Wake up. Sisu (sorry SHITSU) hold all the aces. Face the ultimate question. Do you want the club to survive? If yes then back them in the quest to own the Ricoh. If no, fair enough - just accept the club is dead - but please don't cry about it - you picked sides and you sided against the football club.

Their fund holding the (real part of the) debt & being in a negative cash flow situation is definitely a 2 of hearts & 2 of clubs in their hand.

 

[torchomatic]

If you don't know the full ins and outs then why use it as an example?

There is no point arguing about the rent structure. We do not know the full ins and outs of the full rent structure over the years. Simply to me, ACL offered £400,000 and it was not accepted.

 

[Cheshire Sky Blue]

What you fail to mention is even though it's our club, it's their business, SISU have pumped the money in, they are paying the bills and they are looking for a return into their investment which I fully applaud, do I like the fact that it's our Football Club, of course not, but this sport is a business and they are doing what they feel is right for their business and investors.
Every fan needs to stop with the SISU and ACL hatred and name calling it will get us nowehere, there is more than one party to blame of course, but you can never move forward if you keep looking back.

And their business as JS stated is not football. CCFC is a pawn in a bigger game. A game in which we as fans are always held in checkmate. True you can never move forward if you are only looking backwards. But only fools will ignore the lessons that our history taught us.

 

[James Smith]

£5 a year, club takes over everything, everyone's a winner.

Interesting, incidentally, the Northampton deal.

Only difference here is that the ricoh isn't costing, as far as I know, the council anything at the moment and I'm told is making them a minor profit on the loan.

The consensus on here is that the council are charging ACL more interest than they have got their loan for. However I have yet to see this confirmed by the council.

They have said they will make a "minor profit". This of course assumes they will pay the full term.

They are a parasite that has fed off the football club for a decade. All genuine sky blue fans will rejoice if they do not pay the term.

 

[Astute]

If you don't know the full ins and outs then why use it as an example?

Pot kettle black

 

[Grendel]

Only difference here is that the ricoh isn't costing, as far as I know, the council anything at the moment and I'm told is making them a minor profit on the loan.

Only if they pay the full term and the payment terms never change - something we will never know.

 

[shmmeee]

You are starting to sound desperate. Wake up. Sisu (sorry SHITSU) hold all the aces. Face the ultimate question. Do you want the club to survive? If yes then back them in the quest to own the Ricoh. If no, fair enough - just accept the club is dead - but please don't cry about it - you picked sides and you sided against the football club.

Can we want the club to be released from hostage but accept that it's not likely to happen, however that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, especially if it makes us feel better and keeps us part of the community until such a time as a final decision is needed?

 

[James Smith]

Only if they pay the full term and the payment terms never change

True

something we will never know.

Well I would guess it could get mentioned in either the ACL or council accounts especially if it was a change that would have a serious financial impact (positive or negative) on their balance sheet.

 

[Matty_CCFC]

its time to put ACL anger to one side.

they are not the biggest threat to our club, that badge of honour belongs to our glorious owners.

i understand that fans are angry with ACL/CCC/Higgs for setting the club up with the rent deal that they did as i have shared this anger and i'm sure the same goes for every sky blue, but at this moment in time they are not a threat. however you cant say the same about Sisu and that was confirmed today with the embarrassing sight of our televised "home" game in an empty stadium. the decision to take our club away from its home City with no real prospect or plan from a return that's any more than speculation. if you believe they are distressing ACL to buy the Ricoh at a snip its speculation, if you believe that shitsu have a plan to build a new stadium in the "Coventry Area" that's speculation on speculation on speculation.

the future of our club is speculation and no more. the responsibility for that happening is down to the owners and no one else.

its time to show a united front and shout from the rooftops Sisu Out.

if you have to go into sixfields shout Sisu Out, if you are on the Hill shout shitsu out, if you are at away game shout Sisu Out and if you are at international game wave the Sisu Out Banner.

i know people are going to say we need to get behind SP and the lads and shouting Sisu Out is counter productive to this, which in truth i would say possibly yes it will be. BUT, and its a big but, i struggle to see CCFC surviving much longer with shitsu at the helm (again speculation, but a gamble i personally i am not willing to take). So unless you want to go and cheer SP and the lads on at other clubs its time to unite and shout Sisu Out.

No anger with ACL from me.

 

[lewys33]

It has every relevance. Your argument is totally based on let's ignore the past. The damage has been done by the events in the past.

That just proves you are not taking in what I say. My argument is based on what they should of done in the past, hence ignoring it (because it wouldn't have happened). My argument is not based on being in our current situation and just "forgetting the past".

If you don't know the full ins and outs then why use it as an example?

Because I am using what we DO know. Can you not see that? I could use the £150,000 rent offered but I can't be arsed with the arguments about whether it was/wasn't offered and who to.