corniepaste
Member
:claping hands::claping hands::claping hands::claping hands::claping hands:
Time to go Tim (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Grendel
- Start date
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Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Give us the whole story of hull and stop defending the indefensible!! Football club and ground available to a party that don't talk crap, act crap and treat all other parties like crap
Paxman II
Well-Known Member
Grendel is correct in most what he says. Just that we all must understand one point. CCFC Ltd held the lease and went into admin. The lease was broken. They were no longer tenants so had to leave and find elsewhere. It's ACL back tracking furiously announcing in the media they never said they had to leave and not play their games there.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
They brought it on themselves.
Sky Blues
Active Member
When did ACL ever suggest CCFC could not play their games at the Ricoh? They need to have said it to be back tracking.
The lease was breached when the club stopped paying rent. CCFC (Holdings) Ltd might think they are shot of the lease, but CCFC Ltd may well have an on-going liability - nothing I have seen from the ACL side suggests they have accepted the lease has been surrendered. And as I understand it, it is within the power of the court to decide CCFC (Holdings) Ltd and CCFC Ltd are inextricably linked....
For more on what happens to a property lease on administration, see the text I highlighted here: http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/28462-Confused.com?p=401076#post401076
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
I even agree with this pretty much, yeah, the structure & model needs changing so there is a way forward for CCFC & the whole Arena operation.
At this impasse radical thinking is needed, nothing can be ruled out, don't think CCC/Higgs/ACL/CCFC/SISU/A.N.Other Owner think the best combination of the above that guarantees a sustainable future.
I've got my preferences about a way forward, they don't include SISU and nor do they involve the Council or the Higgs remaining as major stakeholders for very long, but however it ends up the arguing has to stop and an agreement has to be reached or everyone will be cutting their nose off to spite their face.
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Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
It must be possible
georgehudson
Well-Known Member
and further, TF @ the last fans forum in aug 2012 said that if he didn't achieve the objectives set he would only get 30% of his salary, that'll save the club a few £'s,
though he may now refute that utterance,
PUTTSB (play up the true sky blues),
i'm sure that'll be reflected in the clubs accounts,
whenever, that is they are submitted
though he may now refute that utterance,
PUTTSB (play up the true sky blues),
i'm sure that'll be reflected in the clubs accounts,
whenever, that is they are submitted
olderskyblue
Well-Known Member
Lots of good reasons why we think he should go but.......
Surely, after agreeing the last deal with ACL then being bitch slapped (may not actually of happened in this way) by Joy, he should have gone on principle as he had been undermined and been shown to have absolutely no decision making powers. For me, being in that position would be untenable. Instead he tried to non-answer his way out of it, and keeps pretending he's in charge.
Oh, and Linnell, that's what being a puppet means.....
Surely, after agreeing the last deal with ACL then being bitch slapped (may not actually of happened in this way) by Joy, he should have gone on principle as he had been undermined and been shown to have absolutely no decision making powers. For me, being in that position would be untenable. Instead he tried to non-answer his way out of it, and keeps pretending he's in charge.
Oh, and Linnell, that's what being a puppet means.....
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Very long winded way of saying finally the penny has dropped it is time for SISU to go, but I can't say that directly so I will start with Tim.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
No it isn't. The ground fiasco is not acceptable. I still believe the stance against the council was neccesary and correct
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
All these chairmen, financial directors and managers had it wrong. However the one constant SISU or specifically Joy can stay?
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
I did wonder why no one explained that to linnell
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
Ahem. What will be, will be.
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
I think in many respects fisher has done well in his role at the club. True.
He took over at a very difficult time and with difficult owners who have challenging objectives. Generally he has handled this well. Waggott was a good addition and he managed a budget well and to the benefit of the team .
Did well given the. Limitations. Should have kept McG.
Huge error of judgement in retaining thorn. He did that it seems almost out of sympathy. Curious really. Anyone with any insight into human characteristics could see he was probably the most unsuited person ever to manage a professional football club. At least he owned up quickly to the error and took action.
Agree.....listened to the consensus. Didn't do due diligence.
His stance against ACL and the council also was impossible to win given some of the curious fans we have but it had to be done and will ultimately benefit the club.
........SISU had already burned their bridges. It was a mountain to climb.
Compared to Elliot he is far superior as his intellect and strategic ability is so much better.
True... Elliott. Better than many but not cutting edge.
Also he has fronted up on local media to a hostile fan base.
Mistake. Slick like Fletcher. Seen it before.
Now however he has crossed a line. This nonsense regarding supposed ground changing was very ill thought through and has shown a total disregard for the supporters. I do not believe we were ever likely to leave the Ricoh. This was grandstanding and filibusting of the lowest order. It has left many fans concerned and worried and this is not acceptable.
Agree
I still believe the majority of our woes are connected to the disgraceful council arrangements regarding our rent but for this week alone Tim fall on your sword.
Impasse could not be bridged. Tim needed experts. Not bluster. Agree.
Reply
He took over at a very difficult time and with difficult owners who have challenging objectives. Generally he has handled this well. Waggott was a good addition and he managed a budget well and to the benefit of the team .
Did well given the. Limitations. Should have kept McG.
Huge error of judgement in retaining thorn. He did that it seems almost out of sympathy. Curious really. Anyone with any insight into human characteristics could see he was probably the most unsuited person ever to manage a professional football club. At least he owned up quickly to the error and took action.
Agree.....listened to the consensus. Didn't do due diligence.
His stance against ACL and the council also was impossible to win given some of the curious fans we have but it had to be done and will ultimately benefit the club.
........SISU had already burned their bridges. It was a mountain to climb.
Compared to Elliot he is far superior as his intellect and strategic ability is so much better.
True... Elliott. Better than many but not cutting edge.
Also he has fronted up on local media to a hostile fan base.
Mistake. Slick like Fletcher. Seen it before.
Now however he has crossed a line. This nonsense regarding supposed ground changing was very ill thought through and has shown a total disregard for the supporters. I do not believe we were ever likely to leave the Ricoh. This was grandstanding and filibusting of the lowest order. It has left many fans concerned and worried and this is not acceptable.
Agree
I still believe the majority of our woes are connected to the disgraceful council arrangements regarding our rent but for this week alone Tim fall on your sword.
Impasse could not be bridged. Tim needed experts. Not bluster. Agree.
Reply
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
We matter little to the owners and cannot really affect the rent row. The impasse is mostly down to sisu's honesty it appears, I am not sure if this is real or an excuse but it is an impasse with no resolution so long as sisu own ccfc
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Glad to see some consensus on here at last. At the risk of being contentious, even those who gave SISU and Tim the benefit of the doubt should have turned at the moment they started to band about the notion of liquidating the club. The buggering about with the venue is simply an extension of this same behaviour, but the folding threat for me was the most unforgivable
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Try explaining astro-physics to a monkey
Delboycov
Active Member
Up to a point definitely but the problem was they didn't know when to let it go and ultimately that has taken us to the worst point in our history. They've hardly covered themselves in glory over the rent issues although I'd concede neither have the other parties involved. It's us, the fans who are paying the price of their stupid games now.
Delboycov
Active Member
He would've been too pre-occupied trying to get answers from someone at ACL to listen anyway....
It is a shame, because I consider TF to be probably the most capable of the SISU puppets that have been thrust upon us in recent years.
My suspicion is that JS is the real problem here. We know that Fisher and Co sat around a table with ACL and shook hands on a deal, and I genuinely believe that at that point, Fisher and Waggot believed the issue had been resolved and they could get on with running the football club. The rug was then pulled from under their feet by Seppala, but it was Fisher who then had to manage the climbdown and take the flak, and I suspect (but obviously don't know for sure), that he was somewhat embarrassed by that (when you shake hands in business it means something). Perhaps he should have gone then and saved his credibility.
As the dispute has escalated, Fisher has found himself at the centre of it all and he has made a number of serious errors that have only made the situation worse. Some people suggest that it is because he is a direct descendant of Dr Evil and he lives in a hollowed-out volcano with a sinister looking cat; I believe however it has more to do with the fact he is under an enormous amount of pressure (from all sides) in a very complex situation (legally at least) and has been backed into a corner. Errors of judgement have followed and the whole thing is starting to look like a car crash (less of a fender bender and more of a multi-car pile up). He will probably have to go.
My suspicion is that JS is the real problem here. We know that Fisher and Co sat around a table with ACL and shook hands on a deal, and I genuinely believe that at that point, Fisher and Waggot believed the issue had been resolved and they could get on with running the football club. The rug was then pulled from under their feet by Seppala, but it was Fisher who then had to manage the climbdown and take the flak, and I suspect (but obviously don't know for sure), that he was somewhat embarrassed by that (when you shake hands in business it means something). Perhaps he should have gone then and saved his credibility.
As the dispute has escalated, Fisher has found himself at the centre of it all and he has made a number of serious errors that have only made the situation worse. Some people suggest that it is because he is a direct descendant of Dr Evil and he lives in a hollowed-out volcano with a sinister looking cat; I believe however it has more to do with the fact he is under an enormous amount of pressure (from all sides) in a very complex situation (legally at least) and has been backed into a corner. Errors of judgement have followed and the whole thing is starting to look like a car crash (less of a fender bender and more of a multi-car pile up). He will probably have to go.
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Delboycov
Active Member
Agree with all that and it's a great point about shaking hands on a deal meaning something in business....who could possibly blame ACL or anyone else for not trusting them after that?
Absolutely. I have been very critical of ACL over the rent issue, and still believe their demands were/are excessive. That said, when you shake hands on a deal, you shake hands on a deal. That should have been the end of it.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
What part of the demands were excessive?
DazzleTommyDazzle
Well-Known Member
I think that just about everyone would agree that trying to negotiate a rent reduction was the right thing to do.
For me, the problem was the way they went about it.
They started with a strong moral case and a weak legal case, but then massively overplayed their hand and appeared to go out of their way to piss off the people they were supposedly negotiating with.
The whole approach seemed crazy ( to me at least) and destined to bring us to where we are today.
Let's hope that something can be salvaged from the wreckage.
Seriously? After the endless debate on here about what is a fair level of rent for a L1 club you feel the need to ask that question? You know exactly what I meant, and clearly you think it is fair so unless you want to start a completely fresh debate about the rent and revisit all those arguments that have been done to death, then I think we should leave it at that.
I was actually being very critical of SISU and yet you still seem to be looking for a spat.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
The whole structures on both sides needed to be challenged. Both sides needed to look at how they are set up and change things, to save money, to become more efficient and streamlined. To some degree both sides have done that.
BUT for the life of me I can not condone how SISU have gone about it. There was a clear opportunity to work together to achieve those goals.......... instead they chose arrogant confrontation. Yes I know others share some blame but others dont actually run our club.
TF started off as a skilled front man, he is a clever bloke, but it must be apparent to most that he hasnt got the authority to get things done. Personally I would have walked away if placed in the position of agreeing something then having to back track, you have to assume he has his own reasons for staying (£'s ?)
I do not see how TF/JS/SISU/ML come back from this ............. how can their biggest potential asset (the fans) ever place any trust in them going forward. A legacy of a homeless, distressed, League 1 team, few assets, few saleable players, circa £50m in debt, with continueing losses and falling income is not anything to be proud of.
it is hard to choose between deep sadness and burning anger over the whole sorry affair
I agree Grendel time for Tim Fisher to be gone
BUT for the life of me I can not condone how SISU have gone about it. There was a clear opportunity to work together to achieve those goals.......... instead they chose arrogant confrontation. Yes I know others share some blame but others dont actually run our club.
TF started off as a skilled front man, he is a clever bloke, but it must be apparent to most that he hasnt got the authority to get things done. Personally I would have walked away if placed in the position of agreeing something then having to back track, you have to assume he has his own reasons for staying (£'s ?)
I do not see how TF/JS/SISU/ML come back from this ............. how can their biggest potential asset (the fans) ever place any trust in them going forward. A legacy of a homeless, distressed, League 1 team, few assets, few saleable players, circa £50m in debt, with continueing losses and falling income is not anything to be proud of.
it is hard to choose between deep sadness and burning anger over the whole sorry affair
I agree Grendel time for Tim Fisher to be gone
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It's not absurd when, for the umpteenth time, Fisher was happy with the rent offered. Muppet.
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
The only "Good Job" TF has done is.....One on the supporters of CCFC. Since he came in he's totally hidden the real goings on behind the scenes. Lot's of decent guys and girls on this forum were duped by him...Such a pity not many saw what was going on even before he joined. If there are still any SISU apologists left, then I really feel you need to be paying a visit to your GP for something to cure your delusional trust in SISU.
Read what I fucking said you complete clown. I said they had shook hands on a deal and so that should have been that. Everything else is irrelevant as I was referring to my personal belief that the demands were excessive.
Fisher I suspect was 'happy' with it in the sense that it was all they were ever likely to get in the circumstances. It was a compromise. A 'deal'. That doesn't mean to say he, I or anyone else thinks that 400K per year is right for a league 1 club, but clearly at the time they were happy to move forward, and that's what they should have done.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I don't think Grendel and others have delusional trust in sisu I think they felt that the business model of ccfc was and is utterly unsustainable and they are completely correct. Where my opinion differs from theirs is that sisu cannot be trusted by their prospective business partners and this will not change. Therefore what future is there here for them?none!
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
So why renege on the deal then?......Oh I forgot....renege is a word SISU are well intertwined with.:facepalm:
Good question. I agree with you. Read my original post, I said the exact same thing, and suggested TF should have resigned at that point. I'm not sure why people are trying to argue with people that are agreeing with them.
Sky Blues
Active Member
It could be that everyone is used to bickering that the united front that seems to have just about broken out is taking a while to sink in!