The penny dropping? (1 Viewer)

[ccfc1234]

I would like to state before I continue that I am not saying sisu are blameless or the way they have handled things is right, but I feel there is a significant amount of mitigation as to why they have behaved the way they have.

Imagine you own a company that has an office it leases from the local council (i know there were 3rd paries too) they charged you a fair rent but have you the option to buy it outright. The council want you to pay 100k, to buy the office, but you, a shrewd business person, feel it's well over priced and only want to pay 70k. The council say no it's 100k take it or leave it. You then think; I will show them the true value of those offices!! no one but me really wants or can rent there so I will move my business to a different office for a while and they can get zero rent and probably come begging me to come back for close to the 70k I wanted to pay. You know the move will frustrate your workers but feel it's worth doing with the long term in mind. 12 months on your tactic worked the council department u rent from is going broke paying the overheads on the offices no one wants and you sense a deal, close to your terms, is on the horizon.
While this is going on you realise relations with the council are almost beyond repair, but this is business and they will have to come to the negotiation table sooner or later........
All the While your sly but well caculated tactic is working your council rep has become so bitter that they frankly have stopped caring about the money and it's become personal. You skilfully bent them over a barrel and they never want to speak to you again, even though you could still pay the 100k for the office they wanted as part of the agreement.
A few months go by and the next you hear is that the council has sold your office to another company like yours for 65k without so much as speaking to you.

I ask you to consider

1. Would you have an issue with this if you owned the business?
2.Would you consider legal action?
3. Are either of those two reactions totally unreasonable even if you would not take them yourself?

Then let's add in the final element that for me compounds it all. This game of chess has been played with public money and indirectly from city fans who pay tax in the city and support the club. Had this been two private sector companies it would not be half as bad.

Ann Lucas and Coventry Council have more than a bit to answer for. I am no Wasps fan and resent their franchise model but in truth they just saw a good deal on real estate and took it. It was the seller that needs to be punished.

That is what Europe is going to review for sisu and if the council are found to be wrong the remedy will not be cheap.

 

---

[Paxman II]

What the EC will be looking at is the legal position regarding State Aid.

 

[Covkid1968#]

Can’t argue with much of that... all legal but so is getting around paying tax by companies like Starbucks.

Sisus actions just seemed to lack morals but now we have the bigger picture.....it now seems reasonable and the council come out looking tossers

For me I would be right behind our owners if only they had managed the relationship with the fans better... get us on board and keep us up to speed and informed where possible..... but they treat us appallingly bad.

As for the Councils treatment of us.... unforgivable!!!! Meant to have our best interests at heart but lost the plot trying to punish the hedge fund that owns us. Pfffffffffffff!!

Never usually comment on these matters because there are enough peeps who can set it all out so much better than me....like you have done OP

 

[ccfcway]

"While this is going on you realise relations with the council are almost beyond repair, but this is business and they will have to come to the negotiation table sooner or later........"

no they don't. That's the problem.

Like every business, you pick your partners. The council have picked one, Wasps have picked one, SISU have picked none and the fans cant decide, that's what has lead us to here

 

[skybluedan]

They are all cunts

 

[ccfcway]

They are all cunts

Harsh. The fans are just not united. I’d love us to be, but calling them that isn’t right

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

They are all cunts

Yes they are. There seems to be a bit of a love-in just recently between some fans and SISU.
Suddenly the Council and Wasps are complete bastards (which they are) but shockingly the hatred towards SISU has to some extent been diminished by transferring some of this hatred to the other parties.
Lets all remember to hate SISU as much as ever. There's enough hatred to go round without diluting that spat in the direction of our owners .
We've taken our eye off the ball It's time to re-learn once again to hate SISU just as much as ever. We all will in a very short space of time.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Yes they are. There seems to be a bit of a love-in just recently between some fans and SISU.
Suddenly the Council and Wasps are complete bastards (which they are) but shockingly the hatred towards SISU has to some extent been diminished by transferring some of this hatred to the other parties.
Lets all remember to hate SISU as much as ever. There's enough hatred to go round without diluting that spat in the direction of our owners .
We've taken our eye off the ball It's time to re-learn once again to hate SISU just as much as ever. We all will in a very short space of time.

point to one example of someone loving sisu

 

[stevefloyd]

The council should have negotiated a reasonable price because Ccfc represent the fucking city those wankers steal and waste the publics money in

 

[shmmeee]

point to one example of someone loving sisu

Considering they get zero blame for a situation entirely of their own making, I’d say all over the fucking place.

I’d also say your desperate need to jump in whenever someone says something bad is pretty telling.

 

[Nick]

Considering they get zero blame for a situation entirely of their own making, I’d say all over the fucking place.

I’d also say your desperate need to jump in whenever someone says something bad is pretty telling.

Ironic.

 

[shmmeee]

As for OP.

If I was renting an office and then tried to reduce my rent by refusing to pay, breaking my lease and then moving to a different city saying I didn’t even want to be in those offices and my business wouldn’t be profitable if I brought them. Then the office owner rented them out to someone else at a decent deal because the office is pretty bespoke and not many will fit it, I think I’d be a ducking adult and accept my gamble backfired and I’ve fucked myself.

If I then repeatedly lost legal challenges and was told at every turn my case was laughable.

I’d probably swallow my pride and find a new office or accept I fucked up and will have to accept the new status quo.

I wouldn’t piss and moan and drag up shit on the office owners and anyone who works for or has ever talked to them and the new company.

Because I’m not a fucking child.

 

[shmmeee]

Ironic.

Here we go. Here’s the other one.

Hope your happy. You’ve been cheering this shit on since day one in the desperate hope you’d get one over the council because they forgot your bins once or some shit.

Hope you’re happy we won’t have a club in Cov next season so we can keep being “balanced” and “not picking sides”.
Personally I like football, not court cases, but each to their own.

No fucking time for the likes of you that have cheered this insane action on from the start. Hang your fucking head.

Like Corbyn with Brexit, you’ve got a platform of 7k city fans and choose to not use it for unity, Or for action, but to divide the fans and back up our owners at every turn. All on no evidence other than “well politicians suck a bit innit”.

Five years you’ve been bollocksing on about smoking guns and how the council must have done something, clearly out of hope and not wanting to lose face, or just some insane love of conspiracy theories and shit internet arguments rather than any actual logical or legal belief and here we fucking are. The club emboldened to move the club out, knowing full well quislings like you will back them for political reasons.

c**t.

 

[Nick]

Here we go. Here’s the other one.

Hope your happy. You’ve been cheering this shit on since day one in the desperate hope you’d get one over the council because they forgot your bins once or some shit.

Hope you’re happy we won’t have a club in Cov next season so we can keep being “balanced” and “not picking sides”.
Personally I like football, not court cases, but each to their own.

No fucking time for the likes of you that I’ve cheered this insane action on from the start. Hang your fucking head.

Ha ok then, it's almost as if I'm the one who knows half a story or im making images of out context quotes to try and prove something completely unrelated and making things alongside parody accounts to factually mislead people.

For hanging heads in shame, you might want to look a bit closer to home. Nothing to do with my bins, just my football team.

Yeah I like football too, remind me about those free season tickets I get and my links to sisu?

Hope I'm happy not having a club in Coventry? Im sure it's going to make a lot more difference to my matchdays than it is to yours.

You have been scraping around looking desperate in threads like this for a while now. Have a look back to the thread where emails came out and you were straight on it trying to play it down without even reading it.

Stick to posting conspiracy over and over again, you look less desperate then.

Can you post where I have mentioned smoking gun? I've got no interest in politics, I don't even vote and had to take a test the other week to see where I even stand politically.

It seems like somebody is giving you more duff information. There's a shock, I'm still waiting for you to back up the last bit of nonsense somebody had told you. Bit of a pattern happening, maybe somebody is telling you things about somebody else you keep trying to go on about?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The council should have negociated a reasonable price because Ccfc represent the fucking city those wankers steal and waste the publics money in

They they were offered the same deal as wasps but wanted to negotiate other aspects didn’t they?

 

[Nick]

They they were offered the same deal as wasps but wanted to negotiate other aspects didn’t they?

Were they?

This is why threads like this go on and on and the sisu type ones die a death.

 

[clint van damme]

Personally I like football, not court cases, but each to their own.

No fucking time for the likes of you that have cheered this insane action on from the start. Hang your fucking head.

Like Corbyn with Brexit, you’ve got a platform of 7k city fans and choose to not use it for unity, Or for action, but to divide the fans and back up our owners at every turn. All on no evidence other than “well politicians suck a bit innit”.
.

So how did you feel last week when it looked as though a deal was imminenent and the goal posts got moved?

 

[Nick]

So how did you feel last week when it looked as though a deal was imminenent and the goal posts got moved?

He wouldn't have a clue about that as he only ever seems to know half a story and the other half he gets fed some bullshit about me and my free season tickets and links to sisu.

It's the same when asking him about the tricks with the butts last time he tries to make out never happened.

It's almost as if people make it up. He's like a slightly more advanced version of one of those weird twitter accounts, he at least makes the odd football post to make it less obvious.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Considering they get zero blame for a situation entirely of their own making, I’d say all over the fucking place.

I’d also say your desperate need to jump in whenever someone says something bad is pretty telling.

Is this a parody account too?

 

[Liquid Gold]

Also, still waiting for pointing out one example of someone loving them. I’ll make it easier, I think they’re useless owners who are only here for the cash, not interested in the club’s fortunes and the sooner they’re out the better.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Considering they get zero blame for a situation entirely of their own making, I’d say all over the fucking place.

I’d also say your desperate need to jump in whenever someone says something bad is pretty telling.

Ok, look at this from this point of view. We get rid of SISU. What do we do then? Get a rental deal on Wasps terms? Not very appealing really.

Whatever SISU have done was always reversible.

What the council have done, has put the nail in the coffin in this club, all to spite the above.

SISU are not blameless but your outright refusal to see how catastrophic the council’s decision to sell the arena is to this club is ludicrous

 

[RFC]

I would like to state before I continue that I am not saying sisu are blameless or the way they have handled things is right, but I feel there is a significant amount of mitigation as to why they have behaved the way they have.

Imagine you own a company that has an office it leases from the local council (i know there were 3rd paries too) they charged you a fair rent but have you the option to buy it outright. The council want you to pay 100k, to buy the office, but you, a shrewd business person, feel it's well over priced and only want to pay 70k. The council say no it's 100k take it or leave it. You then think; I will show them the true value of those offices!! no one but me really wants or can rent there so I will move my business to a different office for a while and they can get zero rent and probably come begging me to come back for close to the 70k I wanted to pay. You know the move will frustrate your workers but feel it's worth doing with the long term in mind. 12 months on your tactic worked the council department u rent from is going broke paying the overheads on the offices no one wants and you sense a deal, close to your terms, is on the horizon.
While this is going on you realise relations with the council are almost beyond repair, but this is business and they will have to come to the negotiation table sooner or later........
All the While your sly but well caculated tactic is working your council rep has become so bitter that they frankly have stopped caring about the money and it's become personal. You skilfully bent them over a barrel and they never want to speak to you again, even though you could still pay the 100k for the office they wanted as part of the agreement.
A few months go by and the next you hear is that the council has sold your office to another company like yours for 65k without so much as speaking to you.

I ask you to consider

1. Would you have an issue with this if you owned the business?
2.Would you consider legal action?
3. Are either of those two reactions totally unreasonable even if you would not take them yourself?

Then let's add in the final element that for me compounds it all. This game of chess has been played with public money and indirectly from city fans who pay tax in the city and support the club. Had this been two private sector companies it would not be half as bad.

Ann Lucas and Coventry Council have more than a bit to answer for. I am no Wasps fan and resent their franchise model but in truth they just saw a good deal on real estate and took it. It was the seller that needs to be punished.

That is what Europe is going to review for sisu and if the council are found to be wrong the remedy will not be cheap.

Spot on!

 

[RFC]

They they were offered the same deal as wasps but wanted to negotiate other aspects didn’t they?

Never ever offered the deal Wasps got!

 

[torchomatic]

Yes they are. There seems to be a bit of a love-in just recently between some fans and SISU.
Suddenly the Council and Wasps are complete bastards (which they are) but shockingly the hatred towards SISU has to some extent been diminished by transferring some of this hatred to the other parties.
Lets all remember to hate SISU as much as ever. There's enough hatred to go round without diluting that spat in the direction of our owners .
We've taken our eye off the ball It's time to re-learn once again to hate SISU just as much as ever. We all will in a very short space of time.

If this was 280 characters long it would have been a perfect example of a post from one of those anonymous Twitter accounts. "Yeah, but SISU..."

 

[torchomatic]

They they were offered the same deal as wasps but wanted to negotiate other aspects didn’t they?

no, they weren't, but I'm sure you can post the link, so I can hold my hands up and apologise to you.

 

[Ashdown]

Thing to remember though is that through all of your ranting and absence of your office, you constantly bullshitted that you were going to build your own office......should have kept your mouths shut !!

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Re: the OP

I think that parallels the Northampton story very well, and i believe that the Council acted shamefully towards the club, whoever their owners may have been (i'll leave it up to the EC to decide if that amounted to the legal definition of State Aid).
However, what your account didn't address was that way before the freehold came up for sale, your company decided that it didn't like the amount of rent you were being charged while leasing the offices under a leasehold contract, so took the active decision not to pay the rent you legally owed the council under that contract. Would you expect the council, out of the goodness of their hearts, to cut your company some slack and not take legal action to recover the shortfall and/or evict you?
I wouldn't!

I think this aspect of SISU's actions (albeit in the face of a huge rent bill from CCC AND HIGGS, don't forget, as joint owners of ACL) have been forgotten amidst the stuff over the sale of the Ricoh.

 

[olderskyblue]

I would like to state before I continue that I am not saying sisu are blameless or the way they have handled things is right, but I feel there is a significant amount of mitigation as to why they have behaved the way they have.

Imagine you own a company that has an office it leases from the local council (i know there were 3rd paries too) they charged you a fair rent but have you the option to buy it outright. The council want you to pay 100k, to buy the office, but you, a shrewd business person, feel it's well over priced and only want to pay 70k. The council say no it's 100k take it or leave it. You then think; I will show them the true value of those offices!! no one but me really wants or can rent there so I will move my business to a different office for a while and they can get zero rent and probably come begging me to come back for close to the 70k I wanted to pay. You know the move will frustrate your workers but feel it's worth doing with the long term in mind. 12 months on your tactic worked the council department u rent from is going broke paying the overheads on the offices no one wants and you sense a deal, close to your terms, is on the horizon.
While this is going on you realise relations with the council are almost beyond repair, but this is business and they will have to come to the negotiation table sooner or later........
All the While your sly but well caculated tactic is working your council rep has become so bitter that they frankly have stopped caring about the money and it's become personal. You skilfully bent them over a barrel and they never want to speak to you again, even though you could still pay the 100k for the office they wanted as part of the agreement.
A few months go by and the next you hear is that the council has sold your office to another company like yours for 65k without so much as speaking to you.

I ask you to consider

1. Would you have an issue with this if you owned the business?
2.Would you consider legal action?
3. Are either of those two reactions totally unreasonable even if you would not take them yourself?

Then let's add in the final element that for me compounds it all. This game of chess has been played with public money and indirectly from city fans who pay tax in the city and support the club. Had this been two private sector companies it would not be half as bad.

Ann Lucas and Coventry Council have more than a bit to answer for. I am no Wasps fan and resent their franchise model but in truth they just saw a good deal on real estate and took it. It was the seller that needs to be punished.

That is what Europe is going to review for sisu and if the council are found to be wrong the remedy will not be cheap.

Just for balance
You decide to vacate the offices, owing £1.3million.
After more discussions, you agree a heavily discounted rent, and shake hands on the deal, but the next day renege on it, and announce you will build some new offices of your own.
You agree a 3 year deal on another office 25 miles away
This leaves the office looking as though it would never be rented again
The office is re-financed
You spend millions in failed court cases
Another tenant decides they want to buy the office, and instead of court cases, they make an offer.
With you stating over and over you will build your own office, the deal is agreed.
You realise you have royally fucked up
You start bleating that you were not offered the same deal as the new owners
You decide more court cases are in order to try to distress the new owners
You wonder why people do not want to do business with you...

Yes, the council acted abysmally, but lets not forget the part SISU have played in this. They played this game using CCFC as collateral, and should, along with the council, be remembered as the people who could have / may cost us our club.

Posts like yours give them a "get out of jail free" card and that is absolutely not how it should be.

 

[SBAndy]

I wish people would stop with the analogies. They don’t work.

 

[Esoterica]

I wish people would stop with the analogies. They don’t work.

Yeah but if you were buying a house.....

 

[Liquid Gold]

Yeah but if you were buying a house.....

If you owned a Lacross team and rented the field from the local borough

 

[oldskyblue58]

Nice scenario but what about the actual one at the Ricoh . What is the point of creating new fictional scenarios to explain real events that didn't happen the scenario way.

Start by saying Sisu not blameless but, wasps can't be blamed and end its CCC fault. Actually points to read like it's not Sisu fault at all and misunderstands crucial parts. I do run a business so do understand the actions to take but you are forgetting Sisu run Sisu first and foremost. Never has been about anything other than investment strategies .

Most people agree that the blame gets shared around. But let's at least stick to what actually happened. Still its interesting to see new patterns and old characters emerging I suppose.

 

[Warwickhunt]

What the EC will be looking at is the legal position regarding State Aid.

If it found that the European State Aid law has been broken then its the CCC that has to pay the fine not the WASPS. So all this shenanigans from them is for and on behalf of the CCC not to protect the WASPS

 

[oldskyblue58]

Ccc might get the fine which could be substantial, wasps repay the calculated state aid and are given very little time to do it

That is if ccc lose of course. It is not a foregone conclusion that they will.

 

[Ashdown]

If it found that the European State Aid law has been broken then its the CCC that has to pay the fine not the WASPS. So all this shenanigans from them is for and on behalf of the CCC not to protect the WASPS

I'm pretty sure SISU haven't gone down that route just to get someone punished, I think they know that somewhere down the line a case could be opened up to initiate more legal action to gain them compensation.