The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (4 Viewers)

[Deleted member 7943]

Scotland pushing for independence again.

Amazing how a country that's told us we shouldn't be looking at a separatist future, how we shouldn't turn our backs on our biggest trading partner... Want to do exactly that lol... The irony

 

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[Sick Boy]

Scotland pushing for independence again.

Amazing how a country that's told us we shouldn't be looking at a separatist future, how we shouldn't turn our backs on our biggest trading partner... Want to do exactly that lol... The irony

I seem to remember a key argument of No was that staying in the Uk would mean staying in the EU.

 

[Grendel]

I seem to remember a key argument of No was that staying in the Uk would mean staying in the EU.

The vast majority of their exports are to the uk. Experts have said it will take 10 years to unravel treaties and a hard exit would mean no currency, no ability to supply its biggest trading partner unless under WTO terms, the very generous uk subsidies will be withdrawn overnight and yet this seems a more rationale view than Brexit

Sturgeon is hated by many many Scots who find her a nationalist zealot

Oh and more Scots voted to leave the Eu than for Nicola Sturgeon

 

[Sick Boy]

The vast majority of their exports are to the uk. Experts have said it will take 10 years to unravel treaties and a hard exit would mean no currency, no ability to supply its biggest trading partner unless under WTO terms, the very generous uk subsidies will be withdrawn overnight and yet this seems a more rationale view than Brexit

Sturgeon is hated by many many Scots who find her a nationalist zealot

Oh and more Scots voted to leave the Eu than for Nicola Sturgeon

I don’t follow Scottish politics but the SNP doesn’t seem to do too badly. IMO it’s highly likely that Scotland will leave the UK with the way things are going currently.

 

[Grendel]

I don’t follow Scottish politics but the SNP doesn’t seem to do too badly. IMO it’s highly likely that Scotland will leave the UK with the way things are going currently.

Which if it did blows the arguments you make regarding Brexit out of the water

It won’t and if it did the remain in Scotland would be far more aggressive than here. Now the Eire president has ruled out Ireland unification even if we leave on October 31 Scotland would have hard borders with its biggest trading partners, any UK organisation would pull out and there would be a decade arguing about treaties

Sturgeon is an extremist zealot. The people of Glashow in particular despise her. Her education policy failed spectacularly and she and her party have one policy which is Scottish independence - if the Eu actually for once stuck to its rules they could not become an Eu member with currency union for at least two years.

They will have to have a separate currency floated

They would be bankrupt in a year

Unlike Johnson I’d let them have it but I’d make them have it by the end of this year

 

[SkyblueBazza]

He speaks long words in a posh accent and wears an expensive suit. That's enough for most of the dumbasses

Are you suspicious of all people that speak without a real accent, are eloquent, are not short of money & have received an education? Or just Tories?

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[Grendel]

Are you suspicious of all people that speak without a real accent, are eloquent, are not short of money & have received an education? Or just Tories?

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Brighton is himself privately educated

He just sneers at thick working class people and thinks the education he’s had means he knows what’s best for them

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Are you suspicious of all people that speak without a real accent, are eloquent, are not short of money & have received an education? Or just Tories?

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Alexander is not eloquent. He just uses antiquated langauage to either entertain people or flummox them so they're too busy concentrating on trying to work out what on Earth he's on about rather than what he's actually saying.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Brighton is himself privately educated

He just sneers at thick working class people and thinks the education he’s had means he knows what’s best for them

90% wrong

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Are you suspicious of all people that speak without a real accent, are eloquent, are not short of money & have received an education? Or just Tories?

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Take Hillary Benn's speech in the Commons which called for bombs to be dropped on Syria. Substantively it was full of holes but because it used enough long words and delivered with a convincing accent it got standing ovations from the Tory side. People in this country are easily convinced by appearances. Will just leave this here

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The vast majority of their exports are to the uk. Experts have said it will take 10 years to unravel treaties and a hard exit would mean no currency, no ability to supply its biggest trading partner unless under WTO terms, the very generous uk subsidies will be withdrawn overnight and yet this seems a more rationale view than Brexit

Sturgeon is hated by many many Scots who find her a nationalist zealot

Oh and more Scots voted to leave the Eu than for Nicola Sturgeon

The problem is that the pro-UK vote is split 3 ways in Scotland. The most likely of the 3 to win at the moment would be the Tories but as long as the electoral maths stays as it is the SNP will keep holding at least a plurality and so she will keep spouting her nonsense. There need to be pacts between the 3 parties at local levels to get them out

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Take Hillary Benn's speech in the Commons which called for bombs to be dropped on Syria. Substantively it was full of holes but because it used enough long words and delivered with a convincing accent it got standing ovations from the Tory side. People in this country are easily convinced by appearances. Will just leave this here

Well - you might leave it there...so it is anyone as described then? Which means that you yourself seem easily convinced by visual & vocal appearances. Which given what you said initially makes YOU the dumbass.
And you don't, thankfully, speak for everyone.

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well - you might leave it there...so it is anyone as described then? Which means that you yourself seem easily convinced by visual & vocal appearances. Which given what you said initially makes YOU the dumbass.
And you don't, thankfully, speak for everyone.

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Nope I judge the substance of people's arguments. Like BoJo who wrote pieces for and against the EU before he calculated which one would get him into No. 10 the fastest and then wrote another piece comparing Muslim women to burglars and post boxes. Or the countless times 'take back control' and 'Brexit means Brexit' get trotted out with no meaning attached to them.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Nope I judge the substance of people's arguments. Like BoJo who wrote pieces for and against the EU before he calculated which one would get him into No. 10 the fastest and then wrote another piece comparing Muslim women to burglars and post boxes. Or the countless times 'take back control' and 'Brexit means Brexit' get trotted out with no meaning attached to them.

DON'T call him Bojo...Clint will be all over you like a rash!!!

The vast majority of us do as you do though, just because others reach a different final conclusion doesn't make them dumbasses...they just have different values. Admittedly some of those values might be unpalatable, but they have been formed by experience & learned behaviour.

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

DON'T call him Bojo...Clint will be all over you like a rash!!!

The vast majority of us do as you do though, just because others reach a different final conclusion doesn't make them dumbasses...they just have different values. Admittedly some of those values might be unpalatable, but they have been formed by experience & learned behaviour.

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It kind of does when one claims that immigration is why they want out of the EU when a) most immigration comes from outside of it and b) we already had the ability to limit it. When you are in favour of social democratic policies but vote for the opposite, when you parrot analysis from newspapers but can't substantiate it, when people still think Labour crashed the economy in 2008 even after Osborne admitted it was made up...etc etc

Most of all, when the PR adviser of David Cameron openly admits what he thinks of the general public and what he thinks impresses them, and he gets in anyway. We like to pretend that all opinions are created equal when some have much more credibility than others

 

[shmmeee]

It kind of does when one claims that immigration is why they want out of the EU when a) most immigration comes from outside of it and b) we already had the ability to limit it. When you are in favour of social democratic policies but vote for the opposite, when you parrot analysis from newspapers but can't substantiate it, when people still think Labour crashed the economy in 2008 even after Osborne admitted it was made up...etc etc

Most of all, when the PR adviser of David Cameron openly admits what he thinks of the general public and what he thinks impresses them, and he gets in anyway. We like to pretend that all opinions are created equal when some have much more credibility than others

Look mate. Bazza’s third from the University of Hard Knocks helped him reach these conclusions and his uninformed opinions based on “common sense” are just as valid as anyone else’s well researched facts.

 

[fernandopartridge]

DON'T call him Bojo...Clint will be all over you like a rash!!!

The vast majority of us do as you do though, just because others reach a different final conclusion doesn't make them dumbasses...they just have different values. Admittedly some of those values might be unpalatable, but they have been formed by experience & learned behaviour.

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So values such as racism are OK if they are formed by experience and learned behaviour. Terrific logic.

 

[Mcbean]

I think that the poll on Scottish independence was done in SNP heartland -

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Look mate. Bazza’s third from the University of Hard Knocks helped him reach these conclusions and his uninformed opinions based on “common sense” are just as valid as anyone else’s well researched facts.

Which is why I have okay for myself

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[SkyblueBazza]

So values such as racism are OK if they are formed by experience and learned behaviour. Terrific logic.

No they are unpalatable at best. What makes you think they are okay?

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[CCFCSteve]

It kind of does when one claims that immigration is why they want out of the EU when a) most immigration comes from outside of it and b) we already had the ability to limit it. When you are in favour of social democratic policies but vote for the opposite, when you parrot analysis from newspapers but can't substantiate it, when people still think Labour crashed the economy in 2008 even after Osborne admitted it was made up...etc etc

I agree with A, however, we have perceived controls over non EU immigration ie can decide if we need the skills etc (I’m not sure we’ll ever control our borders though let’s be honest !!!). B is accurate(ish). There are certain controls that we chose not to enforce however realistically are/were they easy to ???

‘EU law does not provide nationals from other EU Member States with an unlimited right to enter or remain in the UK. Most importantly, the right to live in the UK without any conditions or formalities only lasts for three months. In addition, the right is subject to limitations “on grounds of public policy, public security or public health” the UK retains the right to restrict the freedom of movement and residence of EU citizens and their family members, where their personal conduct represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society” and the home Member State of any expelled EU nationals must allow those nationals to re-enter their territory.’

I can imagine the human rights lawyers would be well up for the battle. Also, there’s plenty of lower paid jobs available so it would be easy to demonstrate in the three months that you are ‘contributing’

All the EU needed to do when Cameron did his pathetic begging trip was offer a perceived better control over immigration and Remain would’ve won easily. Most leavers (a few racists aside !) don’t have an issue with immigration but it’s having a semblance of control which is important, just being able to say ‘enough’ for a period or ‘we need more skilled labour in these areas, not those’ is not too much to ask ?!

We all know that eventually most migrants pay their way and are contributors to the economy but currently if 500k or 750k wanted to come over in a short period of time from the EU they could do. How does the infrastructure (school places, housing etc etc) cope with that immediate influx ?

Also, I don’t think many blamed Labour for the crash, most did blame them for running a significant budget deficit pre crash though. As Liam Byrne (labour MP) said on his leaving note ‘There’s no money left’

You always make good points Brighton but they are usually heavily slanted

 

[fernandopartridge]

I agree with A, however, we have perceived controls over non EU immigration ie can decide if we need the skills etc (I’m not sure we’ll ever control our borders though let’s be honest !!!). B is accurate(ish). There are certain controls that we chose not to enforce however realistically are/were they easy to ???

‘EU law does not provide nationals from other EU Member States with an unlimited right to enter or remain in the UK. Most importantly, the right to live in the UK without any conditions or formalities only lasts for three months. In addition, the right is subject to limitations “on grounds of public policy, public security or public health” the UK retains the right to restrict the freedom of movement and residence of EU citizens and their family members, where their personal conduct represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society” and the home Member State of any expelled EU nationals must allow those nationals to re-enter their territory.’

I can imagine the human rights lawyers would be well up for the battle. Also, there’s plenty of lower paid jobs available so it would be easy to demonstrate in the three months that you are ‘contributing’

All the EU needed to do when Cameron did his pathetic begging trip was offer a perceived better control over immigration and Remain would’ve won easily. Most leavers (a few racists aside !) don’t have an issue with immigration but it’s having a semblance of control which is important, just being able to say ‘enough’ for a period or ‘we need more skilled labour in these areas, not those’ is not too much to ask ?!

We all know that eventually most migrants pay their way and are contributors to the economy but currently if 500k or 750k wanted to come over in a short period of time from the EU they could do. How does the infrastructure (school places, housing etc etc) cope with that immediate influx ?

Also, I don’t think many blamed Labour for the crash, most did blame them for running a significant budget deficit pre crash though. As Liam Byrne (labour MP) said on his leaving note ‘There’s no money left’

You always make good points Brighton but they are usually heavily slanted

The Human Rights Lawyers will have already poured over the legislation at EU and UK level. The reality is that despite the rhetoric, Tory claims to be tough on immigration, crime [insert soundbite] are generally completely opposed by austerity.

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[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

What’s your plan for the backstop? And what’s your plan for customs ? Boris doesn’t have one either

What's your plan, seeing as you clearly assume I don't have one ?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

They don’t have a plan, it seems to revolve around not taking responsibility for anything and weirdly, the power of positive thinking.
In the end, No deal is clearly their preferred option.

Who are "they" ?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

We all know that eventually most migrants pay their way and are contributors to the economy but currently if 500k or 750k wanted to come over in a short period of time from the EU they could do. How does the infrastructure (school places, housing etc etc) cope with that immediate influx ?

Also, I don’t think many blamed Labour for the crash, most did blame them for running a significant budget deficit pre crash though. As Liam Byrne (labour MP) said on his leaving note ‘There’s no money left’

You always make good points Brighton but they are usually heavily slanted

This theoretical possibility has yet to come anywhere near fruition and we get a lot more migration from outside the EU in any case. Over the last 9 years the Tories have made many vows to curb immigration and are as far away from hitting that as ever. The truth is that low skill immigration is great for business and provides an abundant source of cheap labour. Highly skilled immigrants help to meet the gaps that our education system fails to fill.

As for the economy, the message that Labour crashed the economy was so powerful it surpassed even the Tories' expectations. Osborne later went on record to state that the actions the Brown government took were reasonable in light of a worldwide recession. Yet this idea still dominates voters' opinions on who is better able to run the economy despite the Tories' failure to control the deficit in their 9 years. Trickle down economics has failed each time it has been implemented. Neoliberals like Blair, who continued the deregulation of the financial services sector, were little better.

You offer people social democratic policies and they like them, but they won't vote for the party that packs them into the manifesto and do vote for the party pledging the opposite. I used to try to argue these points respectfully, but I guess over time I've become fed up of people voting Tory then asking why everything's getting cut. Point taken.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Take Hillary Benn's speech in the Commons which called for bombs to be dropped on Syria. Substantively it was full of holes but because it used enough long words and delivered with a convincing accent it got standing ovations from the Tory side. People in this country are easily convinced by appearances. Will just leave this here

Hardly appearance if the statement is well presented and includes evidence. It’s integrity and honesty that’s missing not intellect

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Hardly appearance if the statement is well presented and includes evidence. It’s integrity and honesty that’s missing not intellect

As an example, take someone saying that more is being spent on education than ever before. Technically that might be true, ignoring inflation and our population being larger than ever before.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

As an example, take someone saying that more is being spent on education than ever before. Technically that might be true, ignoring inflation and our population being larger than ever before.

Course that’s what I mean about integrity and honesty

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Course that’s what I mean about integrity and honesty

My point was more aimed at those who believe such claims

 

[SkyblueBazza]

My point was more aimed at those who believe such claims

Every PM, every Gov't Minister does it regardless of which party is in Gov't. So I would question how seriously the vast majority of us are actually really taken in by it.

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[shmmeee]

Every PM, every Gov't Minister does it regardless of which party is in Gov't. So I would question how seriously the vast majority of us are actually really taken in by it.

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It’s definitely become more prevalent in recent years. The Tories are terrible for abusing statistics and avoiding the question.

 

[Astute]

It shows you have much less insight into French attitudes than you like to think then. The suggestion that areas of the country would collapse if it wasn’t for the British is absurd .

Show me where I said it would collapse. What I have said is true though.

 

[Astute]

But, the argument against, say Italy, being in the EU is that the Euro is too strong. Is the Euro too weak or too strong, or does it depend on which industry you are talking about?

You know the answer. But here we go yet again.

The weak economies suffer from a stronger Euro because they have to include how strong the German economy is. But Germany strongly benefits from being in the Euro as it also has to be valued to include the weak economies.

 

[Astute]

Wow. A one way ticket to the country being taken advantage of, great!

Was that when we joined the common market?

 

[Sick Boy]

Show me where I said it would collapse. What I have said is true though.

Even how religion is a top priority?