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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (12 Viewers)

  • Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
  • Start date Jun 8, 2016
Forums New posts

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed Jun 15, 2016.
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Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,651
tisza said:
Making a broad assumption that multiple new parties would spring up.
Not likely multiple parties really come to the fore in UK euro elections with the list system.
Would the hard right leave the Tories, would the hard left leave Labour?
One fairly common theme of that type of PR is that govt tends to be pretty central politics.
Click to expand...

3 hard left Labour policies

Go
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,652
Grendel said:
Still not relevant to the question
Click to expand...

You say he would have handled Brexit better when it was clear he totally misplayed it as Brexit secretary. Unfit for purpose
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,653
And again a silly argument starts over what would have happened if a leaver had been in charge of leaving. Something that couldn't be proven either way.

But I did state what I thought would happen with a remainer sorting out leaving. My reasoning isn't necessarily right but the result so far has been. Just like my present reasoning why we won't be leaving without a deal. And why I saw a long delay happening.

But when I stated my reasoning as usual it started off more stupid arguments. Yet those who started off the stupid arguments haven't made more comments on the subject now no deal finally looks off the table.

Can we stop the stupid arguments please and actually have a debate?
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,654
Brighton Sky Blue said:
You say he would have handled Brexit better when it was clear he totally misplayed it as Brexit secretary. Unfit for purpose
Click to expand...
It is difficult to say who would have done anything better. The vast majority want to stay in the EU. Which remainer would organise us properly to leave? Which leavers would succeed over the vast majority that are remain? And try answering this in a way that isn't someone who wants to remain whatever. Otherwise you get a biased reply.

And yes I know. I try and look at every angle so you call me a remainer for some reason. Yet I am more desperate than most to remain.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,655
Astute said:
It is difficult to say who would have done anything better. The vast majority want to stay in the EU. Which remainer would organise us properly to leave? Which leavers would succeed over the vast majority that are remain? And try answering this in a way that isn't someone who wants to remain whatever. Otherwise you get a biased reply.

And yes I know. I try and look at every angle so you call me a remainer for some reason. Yet I am more desperate than most to remain.
Click to expand...

Last sentence makes no sense. May probably secured the best she could with the tools at her disposal. Polishing the Brexit turd was also beyond the Leave supporters she put in the role.

There is no deal better than staying and no deal will be horrendous. She needed the courage to admit it.
 
Reactions: martcov

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,656
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Last sentence makes no sense. May probably secured the best she could with the tools at her disposal. Polishing the Brexit turd was also beyond the Leave supporters she put in the role.

There is no deal better than staying and no deal will be horrendous. She needed the courage to admit it.
Click to expand...
So what was the last sentence and why doesn't it make sense?

May shaped what it looks like with the EU. So she has done the best she has been allowed with the tools at her disposal? If that is the case why have you constantly had a go at the way she has handled the situation?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,657
Grendel said:
No the question was who’d do a better job. The point is either of these two wouldn’t have lost a parliamentary majority which is the biggest single issue regarding negotiating weakness.

Davis is dim and cautious and wouldn’t have called an election. Johnson probably would as he’s a risk taker but would have crushed Corbyn easily - before you start spinning around I’m afraid people don’t mind old Etonians as PM. They also vote on personality - a large majority would have meant any deal posed would easily have sailed through. A small majority and europhile sheep like Soubrey would be less brave.

May created her own mess by running the worst election campaign since foot challenged thatcher
Click to expand...

Didn’t you say May was going to crush Corbyn? Your record on predicting election outcomes are woeful.

If Davis and Boris are so awesome why did neither succeed in leadership campaigns?
 
Reactions: martcov

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,658
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Personality of Johnson:

Thinks Muslim women look like letter boxes and burglars

Adulterer

Two face

But does use long words and has posh accent. So yes probably would have kept majority. Would have had to drop the Telegraph doss job though. What great policies would be in the Johnson manifesto?
Click to expand...

Changing policies once elected.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,659
Astute said:
So what was the last sentence and why doesn't it make sense?

May shaped what it looks like with the EU. So she has done the best she has been allowed with the tools at her disposal? If that is the case why have you constantly had a go at the way she has handled the situation?
Click to expand...

You said that despite people assuming you were a remainer you are in fact a remainer. She did the best she could but has wasted months trying to force Parliament to accept it. The correct course of action after being so resoundingly defeated was another vote to break the deadlock.
 

bezzer

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,660
Grendel said:
No the question was who’d do a better job. The point is either of these two wouldn’t have lost a parliamentary majority which is the biggest single issue regarding negotiating weakness.

Davis is dim and cautious and wouldn’t have called an election. Johnson probably would as he’s a risk taker but would have crushed Corbyn easily - before you start spinning around I’m afraid people don’t mind old Etonians as PM. They also vote on personality - a large majority would have meant any deal posed would easily have sailed through. A small majority and europhile sheep like Soubrey would be less brave.

May created her own mess by running the worst election campaign since foot challenged thatcher
Click to expand...
Oh dear.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,661
So you and others haven't said that I am on the remain side and constantly have a go at what I say?

If she has wasted months then you will agree she hasn't done the best she could. You can't have a go at her for ages saying how much of a bad job she has done then blame it on others when the situation arises. She has been in charge. Brexit has gone in the direction she has taken it in.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,662
bezzer said:
Oh dear.
Click to expand...

Yes our G doesn’t have a great record on this
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,663
Astute said:
So you and others haven't said that I am on the remain side and constantly have a go at what I say?

If she has wasted months then you will agree she hasn't done the best she could. You can't have a go at her for ages saying how much of a bad job she has done then blame it on others when the situation arises. She has been in charge. Brexit has gone in the direction she has taken it in.
Click to expand...

OK well it looked like you meant something else.

I can say that she tried to get the best deal and I can also criticise what she did afterwards. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
 
Reactions: martcov

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,664
Astute said:
So you and others haven't said that I am on the remain side and constantly have a go at what I say?

If she has wasted months then you will agree she hasn't done the best she could. You can't have a go at her for ages saying how much of a bad job she has done then blame it on others when the situation arises. She has been in charge. Brexit has gone in the direction she has taken it in.
Click to expand...

What's the latest on the big move?
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,665
Brighton Sky Blue said:
OK well it looked like you meant something else.

I can say that she tried to get the best deal and I can also criticise what she did afterwards. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
Click to expand...
That isn't what I have said though.

We have both constantly had a go at the way May has dealt with the situation. Just like most on here has. Yet earlier you stated that she has done the best with the tools she has had. If that is the case we have been wrong to have a go at May but should have constantly had a go at her tools.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,666
Astute said:
That isn't what I have said though.

We have both constantly had a go at the way May has dealt with the situation. Just like most on here has. Yet earlier you stated that she has done the best with the tools she has had. If that is the case we have been wrong to have a go at May but should have constantly had a go at her tools.
Click to expand...

In trying to get a deal I think she has. I also think the idiots she handed negotiations to didn’t help either. I can say that she has tried to get the best deal she can while criticising what she did after the deal was rejected. We can also criticise the botched snap election.

I am not praising her handling of anything other than a pursuit for a deal that reflects the 52-48 split. But now is the time to let the people break the deadlock.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,667
Sick Boy said:
What's the latest on the big move?
Click to expand...
France?

Still waiting for the final word on this fiasco. If this 1 year extension is agreed and everything stays as it is now it is on. You will be my first invite to stay. I have my eye on 3 riverside properties on one plot. It has over an acre of land with half the boundary being a river. And only about 90 minutes away from airports where we could get to a game
 
Reactions: Sick Boy and Sky Blue Pete

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,668
Brighton Sky Blue said:
In trying to get a deal I think she has. I also think the idiots she handed negotiations to didn’t help either. I can say that she has tried to get the best deal she can while criticising what she did after the deal was rejected. We can also criticise the botched snap election.

I am not praising her handling of anything other than a pursuit for a deal that reflects the 52-48 split. But now is the time to let the people break the deadlock.
Click to expand...
Don't you see the contradiction though?

She has either done it badly or has been hampered by the tools given to her. You can't just blame her constantly but then blame the tools when it suits.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,669
Astute said:
Don't you see the contradiction though?

She has either done it badly or has been hampered by the tools given to her. You can't just blame her constantly but then blame the tools when it suits.
Click to expand...

I don’t see one, no. I consider her attempt on the deal to be separate from the snap election and the attempts to force Parliament to accept what she got. This is also all in response to the idea that Davis or Johnson would have done better.

Me saying she got the best deal she could under the circumstances is about as praiseworthy as being the tallest in primary school.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,670
Brighton Sky Blue said:
I don’t see one, no. I consider her attempt on the deal to be separate from the snap election and the attempts to force Parliament to accept what she got. This is also all in response to the idea that Davis or Johnson would have done better.

Me saying she got the best deal she could under the circumstances is about as praiseworthy as being the tallest in primary school.
Click to expand...
So if she has done nothing wrong why have you constantly had a go at her?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,671
Astute said:
So if she has done nothing wrong why have you constantly had a go at her?
Click to expand...

I never said she has done nothing wrong. Trying hard not to make a point about Astute’s comprehension skills is getting difficult.
 
Reactions: martcov

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,672
Brighton Sky Blue said:
I never said she has done nothing wrong. Trying hard not to make a point about Astute’s comprehension skills is getting difficult.
Click to expand...
And here you go again.

You have spent a ling time having a go at the way May has dealt with the situation. Then today you blamed it on the tools she had. Now I have comprehensive problems for noticing that you have contradicted yourself.

So try again. Is the way May has dealt with the situation down to the tools available to her like you said earlier?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,673
Astute said:
And here you go again.

You have spent a ling time having a go at the way May has dealt with the situation. Then today you blamed it on the tools she had. Now I have comprehensive problems for noticing that you have contradicted yourself.

So try again. Is the way May has dealt with the situation down to the tools available to her like you said earlier?
Click to expand...

I never said that. Look back through and try again.
 

tisza

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,674
Brighton Sky Blue said:
3 hard left Labour policies

Go
Click to expand...
Quite simple that one.
Unable to adopt too many hard left policies atm as majority of Labour just to the left of centre.

In a new multi party system you don't think a harder left party would emerge ( as has done in just about every other PR system) ?
Plenty of internal differences in current Labour Party. Are you honestly saying the whole Labour Party is singing from the same hymn sheet?
A new PR based system could very easily see new several new parties emerge from both major parties. Corbyn already lost 8 MPs to a new "party". You think if more options were available with a realistic chance of MP representation more MPs wouldn't move more freely to new groups?

Few old school Socialist policies - renationalization, sectorial wage bargaining (a sly move to increase Union power), compulsory employee ownership of larger company shares (again a backdoor to increased Union influence), increase the tax on the wealthy, increase inheritance tax burden.

There's a few old school Labour policies. Not a debate about the merits of the policies just which part of the political spectrum they originate from.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,675
tisza said:
Quite simple that one.
Unable to adopt too many hard left policies atm as majority of Labour just to the left of centre.

In a new multi party system you don't think a harder left party would emerge ( as has done in just about every other PR system) ?
Plenty of internal differences in current Labour Party. Are you honestly saying the whole Labour Party is singing from the same hymn sheet?
A new PR based system could very easily see new several new parties emerge from both major parties. Corbyn already lost 8 MPs to a new "party". You think if more options were available with a realistic chance of MP representation more MPs wouldn't move more freely to new groups?

Few old school Socialist policies - renationalization, sectorial wage bargaining (a sly move to increase Union power), compulsory employee ownership of larger company shares (again a backdoor to increased Union influence), increase the tax on the wealthy, increase inheritance tax burden.

There's a few old school Labour policies. Not a debate about the merits of the policies just which part of the political spectrum they originate from.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't qualify any of these as 'hard left' to be honest. Seems that the threshold to be 'hard left' is pretty low which is largely the result of centrist buckling sustained over decades. I do not want too much splintering of the party but seems to me like Team Centrist threw its toys out of the pram when someone came along and told them to stop abstaining on everything and to back progressive policy positions. As Andy Burnham famously said in the leadership contest

'The chancellor is trying to get me to say what I think'
 

tisza

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,676
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Wouldn't qualify any of these as 'hard left' to be honest. Seems that the threshold to be 'hard left' is pretty low which is largely the result of centrist buckling sustained over decades. I do not want too much splintering of the party but seems to me like Team Centrist threw its toys out of the pram when someone came along and told them to stop abstaining on everything and to back progressive policy positions. As Andy Burnham famously said in the leadership contest

'The chancellor is trying to get me to say what I think'
Click to expand...

Difference is "hard left" is no longer what it used to mean. In common parlance traditional Socialist policies are seen as being to the "hard left" because in comparison to the rest of the Labour party this is how they are seen.
Can make the same argument about the Tories in that they are far closer to the centre than they have been historically.
Everyone quick to associate ERG as "hard right" of the Tory party but really just "hard Brexiteers". No Deal Brexit doesn't mean the political nature of the UK would have taken a swing to the "hard right".
 
Reactions: Astute
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,677
tisza said:
Can make the same argument about the Tories in that they are far closer to the centre than they have been historically.
Click to expand...
I'd argue there have been plenty of spells where the Tory Party's been left of where Blair's Labour Party ended up!
 
Reactions: tisza and Astute
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,678
tisza said:
Difference is "hard left" is no longer what it used to mean. In common parlance traditional Socialist policies are seen as being to the "hard left" because in comparison to the rest of the Labour party this is how they are seen.
Can make the same argument about the Tories in that they are far closer to the centre than they have been historically.
Everyone quick to associate ERG as "hard right" of the Tory party but really just "hard Brexiteers". No Deal Brexit doesn't mean the political nature of the UK would have taken a swing to the "hard right".
Click to expand...

All I do is look at the policies on offer, look at countries they're already implemented in, look at how they poll in the UK and come to the conclusion that to call them 'hard left' and 'extreme' is disingenuous. The 'centre' is actually in line with the 2017 manifesto. Yet the Tories propose a 3 tier education system, above inflation rises in military spending and continued pay cuts for the public sector and they get to be called 'moderate'.

Big problem with the media coverage of politics in this country
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,679
Deleted member 5849 said:
I'd argue there have been plenty of spells where the Tory Party's been left of where Blair's Labour Party ended up!
Click to expand...
No chance
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,680
I see the talks are going well

No change offered in Brexit talks - Labour
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,681
skybluetony176 said:
I see the talks are going well

No change offered in Brexit talks - Labour
Click to expand...
May is as disingenuous as the council
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,682
fernandopartridge said:
May is as disingenuous as the council
Click to expand...

Tony won’t comment on that
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,683
Brighton Sky Blue said:
I never said that. Look back through and try again.
Click to expand...
You never said what?

Let me know what you didn't say and I will show it to you.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,684
Amazed no one commenting on last nights election as an inevitable pre cursor of things to come
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Apr 5, 2019
  • #34,685
Grendel said:
Amazed no one commenting on last nights election as an inevitable pre cursor of things to come
Click to expand...
A Labour victory?
 
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