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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (4 Viewers)

  • Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
  • Start date Jun 8, 2016
Forums New posts

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed Jun 15, 2016.
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Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,591
Sick Boy said:
1 in 4 people in the UK are not UKIP voters.
Click to expand...

No but in the last euro elections 25% voted UKIP BNP and anti Europe party.

Consider this - In the last general election UKIP attracted more votes than sturgeon and the liberals together. So the anti EU party was more popular than Sturgeon and the liberals and yet we are supposed to take the SNP views seriously.
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,592
Grendel said:
No but in the last euro elections 25% voted UKIP BNP and anti Europe party.

Consider this - In the last general election UKIP attracted more votes than sturgeon and the liberals together. So the anti EU party was more popular than Sturgeon and the liberals and yet we are supposed to take the SNP views seriously.
Click to expand...

Can English, Welsh and Northern Irish voters vote for the SNP?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,593
Sick Boy said:
Can English, Welsh and Northern Irish voters vote for the SNP?
Click to expand...

But that's not the point. This is a uk parliament and the U.K. as a whole proportionately voted very little for a party that has a big representation in parliament.

She's a pip squeak politician. If she voted against article 50 the party is acting in a way not befitting of the U.K. Parliament.

Repercussions should then follow.
 
Reactions: Kingokings204

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,594
With regards to Brexit, I expect that MPs will vote it through anyway, especially considering the economic advantages and businesses clamouring to move to the UK to take advantage of the Brexit Boom.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,595
Even if a vote was taken I doubt the MPs would ignore the referendum result, I'd expect the Torys to be whipped to vote Brexit, what the rest do is debatable, but I imagine there would be more than enough Brexit votes from the other parties to overturn any Tory rebels (probably none, maybe an abstention or 2).

If it comes to it I bet the SNP vote remain, bunch of chancers that they are.

Pisses me off that the people who took the court action wish to ignore the will of the people. Parliament had better not do that.
 
Reactions: Astute
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,596
Captain Dart said:
Pisses me off that the people who took the court action wish to ignore the will of the people. Parliament had better not do that.
Click to expand...

As the people elected parliament to represent them, parliament *is* the will of the people.
 
Reactions: martcov, shmmeee and Sick Boy

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,597
Captain Dart said:
Even if a vote was taken I doubt the MPs would ignore the referendum result, I'd expect the Torys to be whipped to vote Brexit, what the rest do is debatable, but I imagine there would be more than enough Brexit votes from the other parties to overturn any Tory rebels (probably none, maybe an abstention or 2).

If it comes to it I bet the SNP vote remain, bunch of chancers that they are.

Pisses me off that the people who took the court action wish to ignore the will of the people. Parliament had better not do that.
Click to expand...

I would wager that if another vote was held now then the vote would be to remain.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,598
Deleted member 5849 said:
As the people elected parliament to represent them, parliament *is* the will of the people.
Click to expand...

Consider this..

The government was formed with approx 37% of the electorate voting for them on a 66% turnout.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results

In the referendum 51.9% voted leave on a turnout of 72.2%
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

I think the referendum has a much stronger case.
 
Reactions: Astute and Kingokings204

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,599
It would interesting if the country was split into regions with some retaining access to the single market and the 4 freedoms.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,600
Deleted member 5849 said:
As the people elected parliament to represent them, parliament *is* the will of the people.
Click to expand...

What does the referendum act actually state?
 
K

Kingokings204

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,601
Sick Boy said:
It would interesting if the country was split into regions with some retaining access to the single market and the 4 freedoms.
Click to expand...

If MPs and/or parliament block brexit then I seriously will admit to a possibility of a northern england and southern England country split.
 
Reactions: Astute and Sick Boy

lifeskyblue

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,602
U


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,603
Kingokings204 said:
If MPs and/or parliament block brexit then I seriously will admit to a possibility of a northern england and southern England country split.
Click to expand...
why? The referendum vote wasn't split along those lines.
 

Covstu

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,604
Captain Dart said:
Even if a vote was taken I doubt the MPs would ignore the referendum result, I'd expect the Torys to be whipped to vote Brexit, what the rest do is debatable, but I imagine there would be more than enough Brexit votes from the other parties to overturn any Tory rebels (probably none, maybe an abstention or 2).

If it comes to it I bet the SNP vote remain, bunch of chancers that they are.

Pisses me off that the people who took the court action wish to ignore the will of the people. Parliament had better not do that.
Click to expand...
I wonder if areas like Sunderland would maintain that view with large companies like Nissan thinking twice about their long term future? Knowing what they know now will make any local constituency think twice
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,605
Covstu said:
I wonder if areas like Sunderland would maintain that view with large companies like Nissan thinking twice about their long term future? Knowing what they know now will make any local constituency think twice
Click to expand...
you're average mackem will think what the sun tells him to think.
 
Reactions: martcov and Sick Boy

Covstu

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,606
clint van damme said:
you're average mackem will think what the sun tells him to think.
Click to expand...
Maybe but it's down to the politicians now however
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,607
Covstu said:
Maybe but it's down to the politicians now however
Click to expand...
that's who I was on about
 
Reactions: Covstu
K

Kingokings204

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,608
clint van damme said:
why? The referendum vote wasn't split along those lines.
Click to expand...

It almost was. I didn't mean specifically but something along those lines. The result will stand but I repeat what I am worried about is a watered down version to suit.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,609
Kingokings204 said:
It almost was. I didn't mean specifically but something along those lines. The result will stand but I repeat what I am worried about is a watered down version to suit.
Click to expand...

not really sure that shows a north/south split to be honest.
If we do get a watered down version to suit it will be because one of the leading leave campaigners was a Europhile who jumped on the brexit bandwagon to try and further his career and we now how a remain PM who took advantage of the fall out in the tory party to grab the keys to No 10.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,610
Captain Dart said:
If it comes to it I bet the SNP vote remain, bunch of chancers that they are.
Click to expand...
MPs are supposed to represent their constituency. The Scots voted remain so shouldn't their MPs vote the same?
 
Reactions: Covstu, martcov and shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,611
Captain Dart said:
Consider this..

The government was formed with approx 37% of the electorate voting for them on a 66% turnout.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results

In the referendum 51.9% voted leave on a turnout of 72.2%
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

I think the referendum has a much stronger case.
Click to expand...

That's nice but irrelevant, we are talking about Parliament not government. Far more than 51% voted for their MP.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,612
chiefdave said:
MPs are supposed to represent their constituency. The Scots voted remain so shouldn't their MPs vote the same?
Click to expand...

Their MPs should vote however they think is best for their constituents. That's their job.
 
Reactions: Kingokings204, martcov, Sick Boy and 1 other person

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,613
Grendel said:
What does the referendum act actually state?
Click to expand...
The act legislated for a referendum to be held in the United Kingdom and Gibraltar on whether to remain a member of the EU, to be conducted by the Electoral Commission and overseen by an appointed "Chief Counting Officer" (CCO) and a "Deputy chief counting officer" (DCCO) who will declare the final result for the United Kingdom and by regulation orders the Secretary of State to appoint a date for the holding of the referendum under the following circumstances:
• The Referendum must be held no later than 31 December 2017.
• The Referendum cannot be held on 5 May 2016 or 4 May 2017.
The Electoral Commission is the public body under the terms of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 that was given the task to raise public awareness ahead of polling day, and to oversee the conduct of the referendum.
The act made no provision for the result to be legally binding on the government or on any future government. The result of the referendum was to be a single majority vote of the United Kingdom and Gibraltar with no super majorities, double majorities of the constituent countries or any minimum turnout threshold required for the vote to pass. The act did not specify any specific consequences that would follow the result of the referendum. In the event of a "Leave" vote, the government would decide whether, when, and under what circumstances, the UK would invoke Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union to begin a two-year process of negotiations for Britain to leave the EU. European Union law would remain enforceable in the United Kingdom unless the European Communities Act 1972 were repealed.
Click to expand...

This Bill required a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union before the end of 2017. It did not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation was introduced. The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike, for example, the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum should be held are set out in its constitution. In contrast, the legislation which provided for the referendum held on AV in May 2011 would have implemented the new system of voting without further legislation, provided that the boundary changes also provided for in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituency Act 2011 were also implemented. In the event, there was a substantial majority against any change. The 1975 referendum was held after the re-negotiated terms of the UK’s EC membership had been agreed by all EC Member States and the terms set out in a command paper and agreed by both Houses.
Click to expand...

The problems we're seeing now are a result of not thinking through all possible outcomes. Simple examples being Northern Ireland and Scotland both voted remain yet will be forced to leave or the fact that leave won with 34% of the voting eligible population voting leave. You could make an argument for the vote requiring all countries of the union to vote leave or that a majority of the voting eligible population was required. But these are conversations that should have taken place as soon as it was decided there would be a referendum. The complications now are a result of just charging ahead with the referendum because Cameron thought he'd get an easy win.
 
Reactions: martcov

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,614
chiefdave said:
MPs are supposed to represent their constituency. The Scots voted remain so shouldn't their MPs vote the same?
Click to expand...

The vast majority of constituencies actually voted to leave - especially in labour held seats - so are you saying labour should have a policy to leave?

Given most real socialists (including Corbyn) loath the EU they should - but they don't.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,615
chiefdave said:
The problems we're seeing now are a result of not thinking through all possible outcomes. Simple examples being Northern Ireland and Scotland both voted remain yet will be forced to leave or the fact that leave won with 34% of the voting eligible population voting leave. You could make an argument for the vote requiring all countries of the union to vote leave or that a majority of the voting eligible population was required. But these are conversations that should have taken place as soon as it was decided there would be a referendum. The complications now are a result of just charging ahead with the referendum because Cameron thought he'd get an easy win.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter about individual countries at all.

That's irrelevant. We have a uk parliament. Now, if we said to Ireland and Scotland if you want to stay in the right and we remove your subsidies that's different,

Let's see what they vote that shall we?
 
Reactions: Kingokings204

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,616
Grendel said:
The vast majority of constituencies actually voted to leave - especially in labour held seats - so are you saying labour should have a policy to leave?
Click to expand...
If the electorate have voted a particular way and you represent them then you should act according to their wishes. Doesn't matter what party you're in.
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,617
Kingokings204 said:
If MPs and/or parliament block brexit then I seriously will admit to a possibility of a northern england and southern England country split.
Click to expand...

I touched on this a few weeks ago and was told to be quiet. The only problem the north would have is emigration. You could have 52% of the country though.
 
Reactions: Kingokings204

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,618
clint van damme said:
why? The referendum vote wasn't split along those lines.
Click to expand...

I believe it could happen eventually and it offers ultimate control to the regions. I wonder which half of Britain would fair better?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,619
It's all game play. The end result will be the compromise that parliament want. Leave the EU but remain in the single market as part of the European Economic Area which means free movement of people, a contribution to the EU and no say what so ever in the EU. The payoff being passporting continues protecting the financial markets in London, no year's of painful trade negotiations with the EU and our financial contributions to the EU drastically reduced. So unless you're a racist who doesn't like imigrunts it should be what most people would probably like. Out of the EU, keep all the benefits of trade, drastically reduce the money that we put into the EU. Just like Norway really.
 
Reactions: Covstu

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,620
Sick Boy said:
I touched on this a few weeks ago and was told to be quiet. The only problem the north would have is emigration. You could have 52% of the country though.
Click to expand...

A lot of southern counties voted leave as well.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,621
skybluetony176 said:
It's all game play. The end result will be the compromise that parliament want. Leave the EU but remain in the single market as part of the European Economic Area which means free movement of people, a contribution to the EU and no say what so ever in the EU. The payoff being passporting continues protecting the financial markets in London, no year's of painful trade negotiations with the EU and our financial contributions to the EU drastically reduced. So unless you're a racist who doesn't like imigrunts it should be what most people would probably like. Out of the EU, keep all the benefits of trade, drastically reduce the money that we put into the EU. Just like Norway really.
Click to expand...

So anyone who has a view on immigration other than open borders is a racist?

So, astute, for example is a racist in your eyes?
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,622
skybluetony176 said:
It's all game play. The end result will be the compromise that parliament want. Leave the EU but remain in the single market as part of the European Economic Area which means free movement of people, a contribution to the EU and no say what so ever in the EU. The payoff being passporting continues protecting the financial markets in London, no year's of painful trade negotiations with the EU and our financial contributions to the EU drastically reduced. So unless you're a racist who doesn't like imigrunts it should be what most people would probably like. Out of the EU, keep all the benefits of trade, drastically reduce the money that we put into the EU.
Click to expand...

that's the way I see it going, but a lot of Brexiters won't be happy that the free movement of people continues.
Think a lot of them fail to see that it will be a small price to pay to ensure that we keep the EU passport and 22% of the GDP doesn't jump on the plane to Frankfurt!
 
Reactions: martcov

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,623
Grendel said:
So anyone who has a view on immigration other than open borders is a racist?

So, astute, for example is a racist in your eyes?
Click to expand...

Not what I said was it. Try reading again.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,624
skybluetony176 said:
Not what I said was it. Try reading again.
Click to expand...

You said unless people just don't like immigrunts - explain.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 3, 2016
  • #2,625
clint van damme said:
that's the way I see it going, but a lot of Brexiters won't be happy that the free movement of people continues.
Think a lot of them fail to see that it will be a small price to pay to ensure that we keep the EU passport and 22% of the GDP doesn't jump on the plane to Frankfurt!
Click to expand...

I think you're right. Plus we'll have the benefit of brother Sickboy not feeling the need to leave the country. It's a win win.
 
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