The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (18 Viewers)

Astute · Dec 7, 2018

martcov said:
Half a billion includes us and who says how many will make use of that right? The trend is downwards anyway as other countries get richer and the pound continues to fall

The trend downwards happened after we elected to leave. But you still can't properly plan for the future when you have no control over the future. And we don't even get governments that properly plan for the future as it is.

As things stand we will only ever get a Labour government or a Tory government. Both let us down badly since our population explosion. And Labour were in power for the majority of it. So I don't trust any future government to do the right thing. If it was only down to the Tories it would be a different matter.

Sick Boy · Dec 7, 2018

Astute said:
Issues?

There is a big difference between having to apply so the numbers can be controlled and what must be at least half a billion that have the passport that gives them the right to come here without permission.

Are you saying we had the problems back then that we have now?

These people were still scapegoated back then. As I’ve said before, you’re going to be disappointed if you think a successful economy is not going to need skilled and unskilled workers. Brexit has never been about decreasing immigration, it’s just been used to get people worked up.

Sick Boy · Dec 7, 2018

Astute said:
The trend downwards happened after we elected to leave. But you still can't properly plan for the future when you have no control over the future. And we don't even get governments that properly plan for the future as it is.

As things stand we will only ever get a Labour government or a Tory government. Both let us down badly since our population explosion. And Labour were in power for the majority of it. So I don't trust any future government to do the right thing. If it was only down to the Tories it would be a different matter.

Don’t worry, if the economy starts to decline then there’s going to be less demand to come to the UK.

Astute · Dec 7, 2018

Sick Boy said:
These people were still scapegoated back then. As I’ve said before, you’re going to be disappointed if you think a successful economy is not going to need skilled and unskilled workers. Brexit has never been about decreasing immigration, it’s just been used to get people worked up.

Hold on.

I showed you before a few times that we have been turning down those with the skills we need from outside the EU. Those who had a job to come to. Those allowed in took a couple of years to get the go ahead. Why was this?

I put it down to governments trying to keep the total numbers down to keep those unhappy with the situation happy. It didn't work.

Why do you make out that I am anti immigration? So where have I said that I am anti immigration? What I do is put a point across on a one sided shouty supposedly debate. I have 8 years 11 months now until I want to be an EU immigrant :shifty: So I won't be looking for work. I won't be looking for somewhere to live. But you try to make out that I am against what I want to do for the rest of my days.

I will say it yet again. I see myself as better off with us in the EU. But not everyone benefits from being in the EU. And I am not selfish enough to think differently.

Astute · Dec 7, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Don’t worry, if the economy starts to decline then there’s going to be less demand to come to the UK.

Don't worry about what?

What point are you trying to make?

martcov · Dec 7, 2018

Astute said:
The trend downwards happened after we elected to leave. But you still can't properly plan for the future when you have no control over the future. And we don't even get governments that properly plan for the future as it is.

As things stand we will only ever get a Labour government or a Tory government. Both let us down badly since our population explosion. And Labour were in power for the majority of it. So I don't trust any future government to do the right thing. If it was only down to the Tories it would be a different matter.

Immigration is not going down though, just the EU portion. For the reasons I gave plus the overt racism of some people who blame all problems on EU migrants.

martcov · Dec 7, 2018

Ü

Astute said:
Don't worry about what?

What point are you trying to make?

I think he’s saying that there will be less migrants and then they won’t be destroying our infrastructure, making people homeless and destroying our economy causing millions to suffer. Therefore you shouldn’t worry about the problems you associate with EU migrants as there will be less of them when we leave.

skybluegod · Dec 7, 2018

Sick Boy said:
So how far back to go? Do you have issues with the Indian and Pakistani communities who were effectively invited over here? The government needs to actually invest money across the country rather than fixating on the SE and take some responsibility. Of course it suits them for others to be blamed for their inability to invest, it’s letting them off the hook.

It’s not as thought there is mass unemployment with British people out of work and foreigners stealing their jobs.

Do you also take issue with people living longer? I recently saw a statistic that 25% of the UK population will be 65+ in 2050. If that’s the case, hopefully the country will still be attractive for migrants to come here!

Genuine question is it surprising that in 30 years 25% of our population is in the last 25% of their life? For me no... But didn't know if that is a surprising stat?

clint van damme · Dec 7, 2018

skybluegod said:
Genuine question is it surprising that in 30 years 25% of our population is in the last 25% of their life? For me no... But didn't know if that is a surprising stat?

doesn't surprise me and it's a time bomb unless we put plans in place now to deal with the issues associated with an aging population.
We touched on it in this thread a while ago but it's a big discussion and probably needs a thread of its own.

Sick Boy · Dec 7, 2018

skybluegod said:
Genuine question is it surprising that in 30 years 25% of our population is in the last 25% of their life? For me no... But didn't know if that is a surprising stat?

I wouldn’t say surprising but as Clint has said there is nothing to prepare for it and if young people are struggling to buy homes, we better hope there is a plan for the latter years of their lives

skybluegod · Dec 7, 2018

clint van damme said:
doesn't surprise me and it's a time bomb unless we put plans in place now to deal with the issues associated with an aging population.
We touched on it in this thread a while ago but it's a big discussion and probably needs a thread of its own.

I agree absolutely going to be a huge problem...

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Dec 7, 2018

martcov said:
FOM gives them permission. You claim that millions are suffering because of the EU. That is very debatable. The main reason being the collapse in 2008 and the resulting austerity program, together with neglect of most places north of Watford Gap. You turn it into EU membership and blame all problems on FOM. Thus letting the Tories off the hook. Yet you claim to be a remainer and a labour supporter.

Your problem is that you never accept anyone elses point of view without pointing out that your point of view is the correct one and that they are wrong.

RegTheDonk · Dec 7, 2018

Sick Boy said:
...I recently saw a statistic that 25% of the UK population will be 65+ in 2050. If that’s the case, hopefully the country will still be attractive for migrants to come here!

I dare say the gov will take steps to increase the retirement age and some will be working into their 70s anyway.

martcov · Dec 7, 2018

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
Your problem is that you never accept anyone elses point of view without pointing out that your point of view is the correct one and that they are wrong.

That’s what happens in debates. People put their point of view across. Some agree with it, some don’t. If someone says something and I think it’s wrong, I will tell them. If they are right, they can provide evidence or a good counter argument. All you do is make some snide comment.

martcov · Dec 7, 2018

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
Your problem is that you never accept anyone elses point of view without pointing out that your point of view is the correct one and that they are wrong.

That’s what happens in debates. People put their point of view across. Some agree with it, some don’t. If someone says something and I think it’s wrong, I will tell them. If they are right, they can provide evidence or a good counter argument. All you do is make some snide comment.

martcov · Dec 7, 2018

RegTheDonk said:
I dare say the gov will take steps to increase the retirement age and some will be working into their 70s anyway.

Maybe, but in a relatively short time the baby boomers will be needing care and the NHS is already under staffed.

Sick Boy · Dec 7, 2018

RegTheDonk said:
I dare say the gov will take steps to increase the retirement age and some will be working into their 70s anyway.

Yeah no doubt, the biggest concern for me would be the number of younger people currently renting and unable to buy and what happens to their rent in the future

Sick Boy · Dec 7, 2018

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
Your problem is that you never accept anyone elses point of view without pointing out that your point of view is the correct one and that they are wrong.

Most people on this thread do that, weird you don’t call out those who you agree with for doing exactly that

Astute · Dec 7, 2018

clint van damme said:
doesn't surprise me and it's a time bomb unless we put plans in place now to deal with the issues associated with an aging population.
We touched on it in this thread a while ago but it's a big discussion and probably needs a thread of its own.

But some seem to think that we should solve the problem with immigration.

martcov · Dec 7, 2018

Astute said:
But some seem to think that we should solve the problem with immigration.

Yes, with reciprocal EU migration. I would like to know the statistics to the age and flexibility of EU migrants. If the economy fails in the UK, many will return home, as happened for a short time in 2008. I would also like to know how we are going to look after the old in 10 to 20 years time. We already have a large percentage of older people. The baby boomers will add to this pressure on the health system.

RegTheDonk · Dec 7, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Yeah no doubt, the biggest concern for me would be the number of younger people currently renting and unable to buy and what happens to their rent in the future

Away from Brexit I do think this is a problem mate. I'll be finishing my mortgage next year and it's probably worth 7 or 8 times my salery. When I brought it, it was about 4. It seems house prices have traditionally gone up far more in proportion to what people earn. My daughter has just got her foot on the ladder, but she'll be skinning herself out for the next 30 years, with no real hope to moving up to a better one. Renting my be dead money but its very hard to save a deposit to get out of that cycle. Don't know what the answer is. A goverment funded building company, operating non profit to build new homes and keep the cost down might help?

Astute · Dec 7, 2018

Sick Boy said:
I wouldn’t say surprising but as Clint has said there is nothing to prepare for it and if young people are struggling to buy homes, we better hope there is a plan for the latter years of their lives

So you agree that having no control on immigration has problems? Like infrastructure like the trains and housing. And an ever increasing elderly population. But you fully disagree that we should have some sort of control on the numbers that come here to live.

martcov · Dec 7, 2018

Astute said:
So you agree that having no control on immigration has problems? Like infrastructure like the trains and housing. And an ever increasing elderly population. But you fully disagree that we should have some sort of control on the numbers that come here to live.

We have the option to control EU migration. We didn’t because it brought more benefits than problems.

The infrastructure, housing crisis, and an ever increasing elderly population ( ffs, no one has ever blamed that on migrants, who are younger people, before) and train problems has little to do with migration in comparison to government policy and ideology. Crap roads, no state built affordable housing and privatisation of the rail system has naff all to do with migrants. To say the increase in people living longer has anything to do with EU migrants is batshit crazy.

Sick Boy · Dec 7, 2018

Astute said:
So you agree that having no control on immigration has problems? Like infrastructure like the trains and housing. And an ever increasing elderly population. But you fully disagree that we should have some sort of control on the numbers that come here to live.

If these people coming here and working are paying tax and contributing to the economy, then why is there no investment? Take a look at the figures for non-EU migration and as I’ve said before, there has always been the option to take action against those not working.

Your fixation of scapegoating tax paying migrants while letting successive governments off the hook is your opinion, but I majorly disagree.

martcov · Dec 7, 2018

Sick Boy said:
If these people coming here and working are paying tax and contributing to the economy, then why is there no investment? Take a look at the figures for non-EU migration and as I’ve said before, there has always been the option to take action against those not working.

Your fixation of scapegoating tax paying migrants while letting successive governments off the hook is your opinion, but I majorly disagree.

Me too. This is almost worse than the fixation with Selmayr’s appointment.

Sick Boy · Dec 7, 2018

RegTheDonk said:
Away from Brexit I do think this is a problem mate. I'll be finishing my mortgage next year and it's probably worth 7 or 8 times my salery. When I brought it, it was about 4. It seems house prices have traditionally gone up far more in proportion to what people earn. My daughter has just got her foot on the ladder, but she'll be skinning herself out for the next 30 years, with no real hope to moving up to a better one. Renting my be dead money but its very hard to save a deposit to get out of that cycle. Don't know what the answer is. A goverment funded building company, operating non profit to build new homes and keep the cost down might help?

I’ve rented since I was 17 and am now 33 and would have no chance of owning a home here. My parents don’t have the money to help me with a deposit, so owning a property hasn’t been an option. I’m moving over to Italy after Christmas but the lack of a fall back option does worry me.

Captain Dart · Dec 7, 2018

Just to add a festive note.

Astute · Dec 7, 2018

Sick Boy said:
If these people coming here and working are paying tax and contributing to the economy, then why is there no investment? Take a look at the figures for non-EU migration and as I’ve said before, there has always been the option to take action against those not working.

Your fixation of scapegoating tax paying migrants while letting successive governments off the hook is your opinion, but I majorly disagree.

And here you go again about scapegoating immigrants.

You were moaning about trains being full and late earlier. But our population has nothing to do with it you say.

I have said countless times it is the fault of past and present governments. But would you like to put it on record that our population constantly going up has nothing to do with any of the problems?

Not blaming them isn't scapegoating them. It is stating a fact. And if you do ever admit that it makes a difference you push it all onto those outside the EU and not those from the EU. But there is no difference of where they come from. They all put the population up by one for each of them that come here to live.

The only difference is that we get to choose who comes here from outside the EU. We get to choose how many come here from outside the EU. We have no say of those from the EU. We can't choose the skills. If there is a skills unbalance we have to find a balance from elsewhere. And from your past posts it is very important to have fruit pickers or we will starve.

Astute · Dec 7, 2018

martcov said:
We have the option to control EU migration. We didn’t because it brought more benefits than problems.

The infrastructure, housing crisis, and an ever increasing elderly population ( ffs, no one has ever blamed that on migrants, who are younger people, before) and train problems has little to do with migration in comparison to government policy and ideology. Crap roads, no state built affordable housing and privatisation of the rail system has naff all to do with migrants. To say the increase in people living longer has anything to do with EU migrants is batshit crazy.

Are you on drugs or are you just taking the piss?

Astute · Dec 7, 2018

Sick Boy said:
If these people coming here and working are paying tax and contributing to the economy, then why is there no investment? Take a look at the figures for non-EU migration and as I’ve said before, there has always been the option to take action against those not working.

Your fixation of scapegoating tax paying migrants while letting successive governments off the hook is your opinion, but I majorly disagree.

Are you saying that I have never blamed past and present governments?

Try today. Try yesterday. Try the day before. Try the day before that.

This proves that you say any old thing just to get a pat on the back from those who try to hide the truth.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Dec 7, 2018

martcov said:
Immigration is not going down though, just the EU portion. For the reasons I gave plus the overt racism of some people who blame all problems on EU migrants.

Where is your evidence for this overt racism ?

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Dec 7, 2018

Astute said:
And here you go again about scapegoating immigrants.

You were moaning about trains being full and late earlier. But our population has nothing to do with it you say.

I have said countless times it is the fault of past and present governments. But would you like to put it on record that our population constantly going up has nothing to do with any of the problems?

Not blaming them isn't scapegoating them. It is stating a fact. And if you do ever admit that it makes a difference you push it all onto those outside the EU and not those from the EU. But there is no difference of where they come from. They all put the population up by one for each of them that come here to live.

The only difference is that we get to choose who comes here from outside the EU. We get to choose how many come here from outside the EU. We have no say of those from the EU. We can't choose the skills. If there is a skills unbalance we have to find a balance from elsewhere. And from your past posts it is very important to have fruit pickers or we will starve.

Absolutely spot on.

clint van damme · Dec 7, 2018

Astute said:
But some seem to think that we should solve the problem with immigration.

But that's what we are doing.
The current system necessitates it.
It's flawed and unsustainable. But it would be even if we were relying on constantly increasing the population with only indigenous people.
This is why it's such a big issue.

Sick Boy · Dec 7, 2018

Astute said:
And from your past posts it is very important to have fruit pickers or we will starve.

Back to making stuff up again?

I’ve previously said that people should eat more local fruit and vegetables in line with seasonality.

Sick Boy · Dec 7, 2018

Astute said:
Are you saying that I have never blamed past and present governments?

Try today. Try yesterday. Try the day before. Try the day before that.

This proves that you say any old thing just to get a pat on the back from those who try to hide the truth.

No, I’m not saying that and have never said it. I don’t really care if people agree with me, im not desperate to seek approval for my point of view.

And again putting your opinion across as the truth haha!

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