The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (19 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · Apr 17, 2018

Astute said:
So you vote UKIP and defend them yet accuse me of the same.

Would you like to point out me defending UKIP like you have done racist Tony?

I don’t assume that everyone who votes UKIP is a racist same as I don’t assume that everyone who voted leave is a racist. Stereotyping is a trait of racism if you hadn’t noticed so you stereotyping me as a racist for having once voted UKIP without any regard for my reasoning means you’re actually demonstrating a racist trait.

Between your views on the EU and your habit of stereotyping based on nothing you've practically become what you claim to despise and you haven’t even noticed. That’s a special kind of stupid.

Astute · Apr 17, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
I don’t assume that everyone who votes UKIP is a racist same as I don’t assume that everyone who voted leave is a racist. Stereotyping is a trait of racism if you hadn’t noticed so you stereotyping me as a racist for having once voted UKIP without any regard for my reasoning means you’re actually demonstrating a racist trait.

Between your views on the EU and your habit of stereotyping based on nothing you've practically become what you claim to despise and you haven’t even noticed. That’s a special kind of stupid.

Stupid?

Look at the comments by the remainers on here. They call people like you racist.

Are you now denying the problems in the UK from overpopulation against the lack of homes and infrastructure? Because they are the points I mainly make. And calling me stupid shows you know that I am right.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 17, 2018

This thread never ceases to surprise in how low it can sink...

Astute · Apr 17, 2018

Deleted member 5849 said:
This thread never ceases to surprise in how low it can sink...

You are not wrong. Most of it is lies and excuses. And it winds me up.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 17, 2018

Astute said:
You are not wrong. Most of it is lies and excuses. And it winds me up.

Hmmmmm.

skybluetony176 · Apr 17, 2018

Astute said:
Stupid?

Look at the comments by the remainers on here. They call people like you racist.

Are you now denying the problems in the UK from overpopulation against the lack of homes and infrastructure? Because they are the points I mainly make. And calling me stupid shows you know that I am right.

The only person who’s called me a racist is you.

You’ve also done it solely for the purpose of being vindictive. It’s pretty childish behaviour to be honest with you.

martcov · Apr 17, 2018

Astute said:
Racist Tony gets it wrong again. It was 1:3017

Brexit Exchange Rate Tracker (GBP/EUR/USD/CAD) | finder UK

I got 1:40 Euro for GBP on ca 80000 not long before and sold some back at 1:14 after the referendum. Made a couple of grand. Thanks leavers.

martcov · Apr 17, 2018

Astute said:
You are not wrong. Most of it is lies and excuses. And it winds me up.

Sounds like Trump...

Astute · Apr 17, 2018

Deleted member 5849 said:
Hmmmmm.

Yes hmmmmm.

Astute · Apr 17, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
The only person who’s called me a racist is you.

You’ve also done it solely for the purpose of being vindictive. It’s pretty childish behaviour to be honest with you.

So nobody defending the EU has called UKIP voters racist?

As usual you have selective reading and selective understanding.

And calling me stupid isn't being childish is it. I would put my intelligence against your lack of intelligence any day.

Sick Boy · Apr 17, 2018

Astute said:
So nobody defending the EU has called UKIP voters racist?

As usual you have selective reading and selective understanding.

There is only one poster on here who has engaged in the dog whistle scapegoating that Farage and his like are fond of.

Grendel · Apr 17, 2018

martcov said:
No. Did we have a vote on the Falklands War, Iraq or Syria? We have a parliament which is sovereign. „sovereignty“ is what you want.

Er you quoted the common market referendum

Astute · Apr 17, 2018

Sick Boy said:
There is only one poster on here who has engaged in the dog whistle scapegoating that Farage and his like are fond of.

Have you ever said about UKIP voters being racist?..........

Sick Boy · Apr 17, 2018

Astute said:
Have you ever said about UKIP voters being racist?..........

You've consistently focused the blame of numerous issues upon working migrants coming to the country from the EU and blaming them for successive governments' failures.

Astute · Apr 17, 2018

Sick Boy said:
You've consistently focused the blame of numerous issues upon working migrants coming to the country from the EU and blaming them for successive governments' failures.

How do you work that out?

I have said both Labour and the Tories are to blame for how it stands now. It is easy to get people on here to agree with the Tory part. But many don't like anything said against Labour. This has left us with a seven figure sum of people without somewhere to call home.

The NHS is struggling to cope.

Roads are becoming gridlocked because of the amount of people who now have a car.

So how much of this is false? How much of it is what you accuse me of saying?

Exactly. You are trying to twist what I said.

If I had an EU passport and lived in a poor country I would want to come to live here. But as I keep continually saying the problem is the lack of infrastructure. How many more millions should we let come here to live without the present problems being solved?

But you are pro EU and will make out that nobody is suffering and it won't make any difference if more millions come here to live without the present problems being sorted.

It isn't me coming out with biased comments. I am just being realistic.

SkyblueBazza · Apr 17, 2018

Sick Boy said:
It's still quite a way off its previous highs, strange considering that it's a basket case currency, apparently.

But where do you stop drawing the comparisons? If you look back - the pound has progressively weakened against the dollar since joining the EEC in '73. Does that mean we can actually blame EEC membership? Will the pound strengthen against the dollar after Brexit? Who really knows? Everything is pure speculation.

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SkyblueBazza · Apr 17, 2018

martcov said:
No. Did we have a vote on the Falklands War, Iraq or Syria? We have a parliament which is sovereign. „sovereignty“ is what you want.

It isn't truly sovereign though is it?

EU: is Britain still a sovereign state?

Check out the last but one paragraph as you have made it perfectly clear that the majority voice has no place in Britain...unless it conforms to your view of course

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martcov · Apr 18, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
It isn't truly sovereign though is it?

EU: is Britain still a sovereign state?

Check out the last but one paragraph as you have made it perfectly clear that the majority voice has no place in Britain...unless it conforms to your view of course

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

It says what I have been saying. That we are part of the steering committee and cannot moan about laws that we helped make.

Apart from that. What do they count as laws? Regulations? Trading laws? Internet regulation and consumer protection? New laws arise with progress and are required and welcome ( in the most cases ). Tax laws? People on here are not the richest and have not got a team of lawyers and accountants to ensure they get out of paying tax. We actually need more EU control of the tax dodgers and money launderers. Nowhere in that article does it split laws into categories, neither does it attempt to classify „useful“ or „ not useful“ laws. Some you may like, some not. That’s democracy and the system we worked under for over 40 years. We will be passing new laws whatever happens as our system evolves, and adapting most of the „evil“ EU laws anyway. I would keep an eye on what this government wants to throw out post Brexit.

martcov · Apr 18, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
But where do you stop drawing the comparisons? If you look back - the pound has progressively weakened against the dollar since joining the EEC in '73. Does that mean we can actually blame EEC membership? Will the pound strengthen against the dollar after Brexit? Who really knows? Everything is pure speculation.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Yes it was 4,03 dollars to the pound in 40s.

martcov · Apr 18, 2018

Astute said:
How do you work that out?

I have said both Labour and the Tories are to blame for how it stands now. It is easy to get people on here to agree with the Tory part. But many don't like anything said against Labour. This has left us with a seven figure sum of people without somewhere to call home.

The NHS is struggling to cope.

Roads are becoming gridlocked because of the amount of people who now have a car.

So how much of this is false? How much of it is what you accuse me of saying?

Exactly. You are trying to twist what I said.

If I had an EU passport and lived in a poor country I would want to come to live here. But as I keep continually saying the problem is the lack of infrastructure. How many more millions should we let come here to live without the present problems being solved?

But you are pro EU and will make out that nobody is suffering and it won't make any difference if more millions come here to live without the present problems being sorted.

It isn't me coming out with biased comments. I am just being realistic.

According to you Britain is a terrible country. Full of homeless, NHS is not fit for purpose and it’s pointless owning a car as the roads are gridlocked. And don’t dare get sick as you’ll never get to see a doctor.

Romania must be paradise compared to that. Can’t understand why anyone would come to the country you describe which is full of people suffering through the EU.

But, wasn’t your argument that millions are coming every year? Or at least over a period of time.

martcov · Apr 18, 2018

Grendel said:
Er you quoted the common market referendum

Yes. Interesting that we were already in and knew the conditions ( we were told by Heath that there would be a closer union ), as opposed to being in and voting out into the unknown. Voting for a leap in the dark is not sovereignty. It is reckless and the people who voted will carry the can of it goes wrong instead of the people charged with running the country, who could at least be held to account and voted out. The country is split whatever happens. That will not be repaired for a long while.

Astute · Apr 18, 2018

martcov said:
It says what I have been saying. That we are part of the steering committee and cannot moan about laws that we helped make.

Apart from that. What do they count as laws? Regulations? Trading laws? Internet regulation and consumer protection? New laws arise with progress and are required and welcome ( in the most cases ). Tax laws? People on here are not the richest and have not got a team of lawyers and accountants to ensure they get out of paying tax. We actually need more EU control of the tax dodgers and money launderers. Nowhere in that article does it split laws into categories, neither does it attempt to classify „useful“ or „ not useful“ laws. Some you may like, some not. That’s democracy and the system we worked under for over 40 years. We will be passing new laws whatever happens as our system evolves, and adapting most of the „evil“ EU laws anyway. I would keep an eye on what this government wants to throw out post Brexit.

Steering committee?

We can make recommendations. The problem with the steering committee is that it is like an oil tanker. You can put the brakes on but it keeps going. You can try steering it but it goes in the same direction for ages.

Here is an explanation on how it works

Types of EU legal acts
EU treaties
The treaties lay down the objectives of the European Union, the rules for EU institutions, how decisions are made and the relationship between the EU and its member countries. The EU treaties have from time to time been amended to reform the EU institutions and to give it new areas of responsibility. They have also been amended to allow new EU countries to join the EU.

The treaties are negotiated and agreed by all the EU countries and then ratified by their parliaments, sometimes following a referendum.

Regulations
Regulations are legal acts that apply automatically and uniformly to all EU countries as soon as they enter into force, without needing to be transposed into national law. They are binding in their entirety on all EU countries.

Directives
Directives require EU countries to achieve a certain result, but leave them free to choose how to do so. EU countries must adopt measures to incorporate them into national law (transpose) in order to achieve the objectives set by the directive. National authorities must communicate these measures to the European Commission.

Transposition into national law must take place by the deadline set when the directive is adopted (generally within 2 years). When a country does not transpose a directive, the Commission may initiate infringement proceedings.

Applying EU law

Decisions
Decisions are binding legal acts that apply to 1 or more EU countries, companies or individuals. The party concerned must be notified and the decision comes into effect upon such notification. They don’t need to be transposed into national law.

Recommendations
Recommendations allow the EU institutions to make their views known and to suggest a line of action without imposing any legal obligation on those to whom it is addressed. They have no binding force.

Opinions
An 'opinion' is an instrument that allows the EU institutions to make a statement, without imposing any legal obligation on the subject of the opinion. An opinion has no binding force.

Delegated acts
Delegated acts are legally binding acts that enable the Commission to supplement or amend non‑essential parts of EU legislative acts for example, in order to define detailed measures.

The Commission adopts the delegated act and if Parliament and Council have no objections, it enters into force.

Implementing acts
Implementing acts are legally binding acts that enable the Commission – under the supervision of committees consisting of EU countries’ representatives – to set conditions that ensure that EU laws are applied uniformly.

EU treaties

Astute · Apr 18, 2018

martcov said:
Yes. Interesting that we were already in and knew the conditions ( we were told by Heath that there would be a closer union ), as opposed to being in and voting out into the unknown. Voting for a leap in the dark is not sovereignty. It is reckless and the people who voted will carry the can of it goes wrong instead of the people charged with running the country, who could at least be held to account and voted out. The country is split whatever happens. That will not be repaired for a long while.

But we had the vote on the common market. What were we told then?

It wasn't that we would be paying billions each year to be a member.

It wasn't that we would lose the right to choose who could come and live here.

It wasn't that they could make our laws for us.

That vote was a leap in the dark. Afterwards things changed. Change can be good. Many policies of the EU are good. But bringing out policies that are good for 27 countries?

Astute · Apr 18, 2018

martcov said:
According to you Britain is a terrible country. Full of homeless, NHS is not fit for purpose and it’s pointless owning a car as the roads are gridlocked. And don’t dare get sick as you’ll never get to see a doctor.

Romania must be paradise compared to that. Can’t understand why anyone would come to the country you describe which is full of people suffering through the EU.

But, wasn’t your argument that millions are coming every year? Or at least over a period of time.

Any chance of keeping to the truth? It isn't me who thinks the UK isn't the place that I want to live so has gone to live somewhere else.

So according to you we don't have homeless sleeping on the streets or families living in hotel rooms. The NHS is doing well and hitting all targets. There are not too many cars on the roads. It isn't standing room only on the trains. And everyone gets to see a doctor when they need to.

And yet again you try to make out that the problem isn't exasperated by our population going up by the size of a large city each year.

SkyblueBazza · Apr 18, 2018

martcov said:
Yes it was 8 dollars to the pound in 40s.

We agree then. Brexit has so far had relatively little impact on the value of the pound

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SkyblueBazza · Apr 18, 2018

martcov said:
It says what I have been saying. That we are part of the steering committee and cannot moan about laws that we helped make.

Apart from that. What do they count as laws? Regulations? Trading laws? Internet regulation and consumer protection? New laws arise with progress and are required and welcome ( in the most cases ). Tax laws? People on here are not the richest and have not got a team of lawyers and accountants to ensure they get out of paying tax. We actually need more EU control of the tax dodgers and money launderers. Nowhere in that article does it split laws into categories, neither does it attempt to classify „useful“ or „ not useful“ laws. Some you may like, some not. That’s democracy and the system we worked under for over 40 years. We will be passing new laws whatever happens as our system evolves, and adapting most of the „evil“ EU laws anyway. I would keep an eye on what this government wants to throw out post Brexit.

As part of the EU we have given up powers of self determination. Something that in 1973 had voters for seen...I suspect they would have strongly voted against.

In the EU - we are not truly a sovereign nation.

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Astute · Apr 18, 2018

OK Mart. You continually tell us that we are not overpopulated for our size.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-most-densely-populated-countries-in-Europe

Yes it looks OK. This is the population per square mile.

Monaco - 18,812

Malta - 1,336

San Marino - 527

Netherlands - 501

Belgium - 371

United Kingdom - 267

Germany - 232

Luxembourg - 215

Switzerland - 207

Italy - 207

Holland and Belgium are highly populated. We are much lower than them. Great news for what you are saying.

But people don't want to move to the other parts of the UK. They want to be in England.

England to be most crowded in Europe

I take it the Telegraph is OK to quote. Our population in England is over 1,000 per square mile. We are 5 times that of Italy. And they can't cope. Like I have said countless times it is all about the infrastructure.

skybluetony176 · Apr 18, 2018

Astute said:
So nobody defending the EU has called UKIP voters racist?

As usual you have selective reading and selective understanding.

And calling me stupid isn't being childish is it. I would put my intelligence against your lack of intelligence any day.

Calling you stupid is an observation of you feeling you have a right to call me a racist. If the cap fits and all that. If you don’t like being labelled stupid don’t act it. It’s a very simple concept.

Astute · Apr 18, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Calling you stupid is an observation of you feeling you have a right to call me a racist. If the cap fits and all that. If you don’t like being labelled stupid don’t act it. It’s a very simple concept.

More like the double standards on here of those who can't see the truth. They say that we voted to leave because of the racist UKIP voters. But not one has mentiined about you being a UKIP voter who defended UKIP on here because you also twist the truth on what is going on and the reasons why.

So how come UKIP voters are racist but you are not?

martcov · Apr 18, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
As part of the EU we have given up powers of self determination. Something that in 1973 had voters for seen...I suspect they would have strongly voted against.

In the EU - we are not truly a sovereign nation.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

I don’t care as we have pooled our sovereignty with our EU partners and have not had it taken away from us.

We will never be the truly sovereign nation that we were, at the head of an Empire where we say what goes.

I don’t miss that.

We are members of NATO and the UN, and will soon be signing up to trade deals where we accept other people’s conditions in order to trade with them- as we do now in the EU.

We are not sovereign by your Brexiteer extreme definition. We are of course sovereign in the real world as we can pull out of any deal we have, including the EU.

We will still have immigrants, brown instead of white, Muslim or Hindu instead of Christian, but we will lose our automatic rights to live and work where we want to in Europe.

Astute · Apr 18, 2018

martcov said:
I don’t care as we have pooled our sovereignty with our EU partners and have not had it taken away from us.

We will never be the truly sovereign nation that we were, at the head of an Empire where we say what goes.

I don’t miss that.

We are members of NATO and the UN, and will soon be signing up to trade deals where we accept other people’s conditions in order to trade with them- as we do now in the EU.

We are not sovereign by your Brexiteer extreme definition. We are of course sovereign in the real world as we can pull out of any deal we have, including the EU.

We will still have immigrants, brown instead of white, Muslim or Hindu instead of Christian, but we will lose our automatic rights to live and work where we want to in Europe.

Go away with your brown comment. You have some learning to do.

There is nothing wrong with immigration. But not having a choice on the matter is a totally different situation.

So you think that countries we will trade with will be able to change our laws?

martcov · Apr 18, 2018

Astute said:
Steering committee?

We can make recommendations. The problem with the steering committee is that it is like an oil tanker. You can put the brakes on but it keeps going. You can try steering it but it goes in the same direction for ages.

Here is an explanation on how it works

Types of EU legal acts
EU treaties
The treaties lay down the objectives of the European Union, the rules for EU institutions, how decisions are made and the relationship between the EU and its member countries. The EU treaties have from time to time been amended to reform the EU institutions and to give it new areas of responsibility. They have also been amended to allow new EU countries to join the EU.

The treaties are negotiated and agreed by all the EU countries and then ratified by their parliaments, sometimes following a referendum.

Regulations
Regulations are legal acts that apply automatically and uniformly to all EU countries as soon as they enter into force, without needing to be transposed into national law. They are binding in their entirety on all EU countries.

Directives
Directives require EU countries to achieve a certain result, but leave them free to choose how to do so. EU countries must adopt measures to incorporate them into national law (transpose) in order to achieve the objectives set by the directive. National authorities must communicate these measures to the European Commission.

Transposition into national law must take place by the deadline set when the directive is adopted (generally within 2 years). When a country does not transpose a directive, the Commission may initiate infringement proceedings.

Applying EU law

Decisions
Decisions are binding legal acts that apply to 1 or more EU countries, companies or individuals. The party concerned must be notified and the decision comes into effect upon such notification. They don’t need to be transposed into national law.

Recommendations
Recommendations allow the EU institutions to make their views known and to suggest a line of action without imposing any legal obligation on those to whom it is addressed. They have no binding force.

Opinions
An 'opinion' is an instrument that allows the EU institutions to make a statement, without imposing any legal obligation on the subject of the opinion. An opinion has no binding force.

Delegated acts
Delegated acts are legally binding acts that enable the Commission to supplement or amend non‑essential parts of EU legislative acts for example, in order to define detailed measures.

The Commission adopts the delegated act and if Parliament and Council have no objections, it enters into force.

Implementing acts
Implementing acts are legally binding acts that enable the Commission – under the supervision of committees consisting of EU countries’ representatives – to set conditions that ensure that EU laws are applied uniformly.

EU treaties

Which our successive governments ( the people democratically elected- even if not determined 100% by yourself ) signed up to. Now people are saying we knew nothing about it. What crap. Read decent papers and you would have known.

Astute · Apr 18, 2018

martcov said:
Which our successive governments ( the people democratically elected- even if not determined 100% by yourself ) signed up to. Now people are saying we knew nothing about it. What crap. Read decent papers and you would have known.

Will have known what?

We thought it was all about trade. Now trade is just a small part of it.

Sick Boy · Apr 18, 2018

Astute said:
Go away with your brown comment. You have some learning to do.

There is nothing wrong with immigration. But not having a choice on the matter is a totally different situation.

So you think that countries we will trade with will be able to change our laws?

Britain has consistently had some kind of freedom of movement into the country over the last 100 years whether it be from commonwealth or former commonwealth countries and the EU. People would have used your same arguments against Pakistanis, West Indians, Irish etc etc.

The likes of the USA and India will insist that we change some of our laws in exchange for free trade deals as has been mentioned on numerous occasions

Sick Boy · Apr 18, 2018

Astute said:
Will have known what?

We thought it was all about trade. Now trade is just a small part of it.

Yeah and as an influential country the UK would have helped shape it.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (19 Viewers)

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