The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (12 Viewers)

shmmeee · Mar 8, 2018

For those with an issue with sovereignty:

Do you support England leaving the U.K.? Every argument applies double there. We pay in more than we receive. We have no parliament of our own. Other countries get a say in our laws...

And if yes, should the WM leave England? All those other regions can outvote us at every turn.

Where does it end?

Edit: in fact recent research shows we aren’t one mind inside our brain, but multiple competing and cooperating minds. So what happens there?

Trading off independence for prosperity should be familiar to any married man.

Captain Dart · Mar 8, 2018

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
I'll try and give you an answer Clint.....but I've had my first drink in over a fortnight so apologies in advance if it becomes a bit of a drunken rant.....
I could offer you the obvious immediate positives......regaining sovereignty, control of our own laws and borders, the approx 10bn annual net saving etc. Etc. But for me personally the vote was far more ideological than a simple list of predominantly economic pros and cons......but frankly I'm sick and tired of the brexit debate being condensed down to a simple short-term economic argument.
:
:
......sorry.....its a drunken rant ain't it.

- but heartfelt.

I think in the end there are no good choices, you can only take what you think is the least worse option.
I definitely have no permanent allegiance, I've changed my political stance considerably over the years.
PS I just stopped voting for a dozen or so years after Blair's first term, I decided he was not a good choice.

Sick Boy · Mar 8, 2018

The current Tory government are easily the worst and most incompetent government in my lifetime.

Sick Boy · Mar 8, 2018

shmmeee said:
YOuve bought the propaganda hook line and sinker I’m afraid. Multinationals will have far more power in a post Brexit U.K. we will lose just as much sovereignty in all the trade deals we’ll need to set up. The Yanks already want to tell us how to define a Cornish pasty. And if you’re worried about corruption, handing a Tory government free reign over the country was possibly the worst thing you could’ve done.

That's the thing, his stance is admirable and well-meaning, and it would all be fine if it was a completely different country!!

The fact Rees-Mogg is favourite to be the next PM says it all!!

clint van damme · Mar 8, 2018

shmmeee said:
Edit: in fact recent research shows we aren’t one mind inside our brain, but multiple competing and cooperating minds. So what happens there?

Trading off independence for prosperity should be familiar to any married man.

the Chimp paradox

clint van damme · Mar 8, 2018

shmmeee said:
YOuve bought the propaganda hook line and sinker I’m afraid. Multinationals will have far more power in a post Brexit U.K. we will lose just as much sovereignty in all the trade deals we’ll need to set up. The Yanks already want to tell us how to define a Cornish pasty. And if you’re worried about corruption, handing a Tory government free reign over the country was possibly the worst thing you could’ve done.

that's how I read it, I'm realise I might be totally wrong but can't see how the current incumbents would contemplate steering the country in any other direction. It's the nature of the neoliberal beast unfortunately.

fernandopartridge · Mar 8, 2018

You can't think about the future purely through the prism of the incumbent government. The transition period is supposed to end in December 2019, if Brexit is the catastrophe it's being built up to be that's a little while for the electorate to realise and consequently punish the Tories.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Mar 8, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
You can't think about the future purely through the prism of the incumbent government. The transition period is supposed to end in December 2019, if Brexit is the catastrophe it's being built up to be that's a little while for the electorate to realise and consequently punish the Tories.

Exactly......people need to realise that divorcing ourselves from the EU does not have to result in us being governed for ever more by the right wing of the conservative party.....

in 10, 20, 30 years time, May, Johnson, Mogg etc. will all be gone & forgotten......but the UK will still be independent & free from the expansionist ideals of the federalist EU.

clint van damme · Mar 8, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
You can't think about the future purely through the prism of the incumbent government. The transition period is supposed to end in December 2019, if Brexit is the catastrophe it's being built up to be that's a little while for the electorate to realise and consequently punish the Tories.

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
Exactly......people need to realise that divorcing ourselves from the EU does not have to result in us being governed for ever more by the right wing of the conservative party.....

in 10, 20, 30 years time, May, Johnson, Mogg etc. will all be gone & forgotten......but the UK will still be independent & free from the expansionist ideals of the federalist EU.

both good points but the tories seem to be able to get away with murder.

skybluetony176 · Mar 8, 2018

fernandopartridge said:
You can't think about the future purely through the prism of the incumbent government. The transition period is supposed to end in December 2019, if Brexit is the catastrophe it's being built up to be that's a little while for the electorate to realise and consequently punish the Tories.

You make it sound like if we “punish the Tories” for doing something that the British people told them to do it will be a victory.

skybluetony176 · Mar 8, 2018

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
Exactly......people need to realise that divorcing ourselves from the EU does not have to result in us being governed for ever more by the right wing of the conservative party.....

in 10, 20, 30 years time, May, Johnson, Mogg etc. will all be gone & forgotten......but the UK will still be independent & free from the expansionist ideals of the federalist EU.

But the terms of brexit will have been set by then. Doesn’t matter who’s in we’ve already set our destiny.

martcov · Mar 8, 2018

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
Exactly......people need to realise that divorcing ourselves from the EU does not have to result in us being governed for ever more by the right wing of the conservative party.....

in 10, 20, 30 years time, May, Johnson, Mogg etc. will all be gone & forgotten......but the UK will still be independent & free from the expansionist ideals of the federalist EU.

That’s speculation regarding independence from the EU. If we have 10 or 20 years of decline outside the EU, we could well be queuing to rejoin.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2018

shmmeee said:
Uh Brexit itself.

I didn’t crash the value of the pound mate. And it won’t be me that shrinks our economy.

The fact you even think that’s a sensible question suggests you probably shouldn’t be allowed to make big decisions.

Hahaha. What a condescending wanker you are. That really hit a nerve didn't it?

It just goes to show, when you call out remainers on their never-ending negativity towards something that is inevitable, you're in for some more tantrums.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Mar 8, 2018

martcov said:
That’s speculation regarding independence from the EU. If we have 10 or 20 years of decline outside the EU, we could well be queuing to rejoin.

possibly.......another possibility is that EU machinery pushes more & more people & nation states to breaking point......

How long will the poor folks of Greece, Bulgaria & Romania, for example, put up with their countries being drained of their best & brightest purely for the benefit of wealthier nations & the private profit of big business ........how long will they suffer in poverty in order to help bureaucrats & bankers prop up a failed currency experiment......

clint van damme · Mar 8, 2018

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Hahaha. What a condescending wanker you are. That really hit a nerve didn't it?

It just goes to show, when you call out remainers on their never-ending negativity towards something that is inevitable, you're in for some more tantrums.

you're not actually saying anything you're just ranting.
Think of something you feel negative about - now think if someone repeating over and over again be positive, be positive would make you feel any more positive about it.
If the answers no then you know how we feel, if the answers then you're simpler than you sound.

clint van damme · Mar 8, 2018

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
possibly.......another possibility is that EU machinery pushes more & more people & nation states to breaking point......

How long will the poor folks of Greece, Bulgaria & Romania, for example, put up with their countries being drained of their best & brightest purely for the benefit of wealthier nations & the private profit of big business ........how long will they suffer in poverty in order to help bureaucrats & bankers prop up a failed currency experiment......

If nation states are going to be pushed to breaking point perhaps we would have been better waiting for the whole think to implode rather than going now with incompetent Bullingdon boys and public school corporate lackeys leading the charge?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
It’s brexit. If brexit was positive the government would have some proper policies on it rather than two sound bites. 1) out means out 2) everyone needs to be positive.

We’ve learned from the Irish border issue out could mean a number of things. Everyone needs to be positive is just lazy politics that’s and attempt to divert negativity from brexit onto remain voters. The government can’t sell a positive on brexit for a very simple reason. They can’t find one.

Maybe you could name one, just one and then explain why it’s positive.

clint van damme said:
I answered your question, you still haven't answered mine. Save yourself time and copy and paste Jimmyhillsfanclub post, and make sure you thank him!

Sick Boy said:
Hahaha classic!

I have never said it will be amazing, I've never said everyone's life will definitely be better, as per JHFC post, there are things to be positive about. That is not why I am here though as it will end in another 300 pages of arguments. Take note @martcov

My point is, in all of your eyes, Brexit is cancer. Therefore if you go to the doctor and he tells you have it, you can deal with it one of two ways. Try and be positive, accept what's happened and try to make the most of your life. The other option is to moan, get mad, blame everyone else and just generally let a negative attitude make the whole situation worse.

There are parallels between that and all of your behaviour here, yet a disease diagnosis should be considerably worse. I stumble back onto this thread and it is just a constant grumbling set of old mans never-ending rants about something you cannot change. It's happening, and I have barely seen one constructive idea about how we can try to get the most out of this 'so it isn't all so bad'. Not one of you are bothered. It's easier just to moan, complain that there is nothing to be positive about, and jump down the throat of anyone who doesn't conform.

If the country does go to shit then in the future I can imagine the Boris bus won't be the only one that will get talked about. You'll also have the one that got parked by the remainers which basically stopped us having a fair crack at trying to make it work.

Hence why I asked the question, what's worse, Brexit, or constant negativity from remain voters? The answer may well be Brexit itself, but you are certainly close runner ups.

martcov · Mar 8, 2018

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
possibly.......another possibility is that EU machinery pushes more & more people & nation states to breaking point......

How long will the poor folks of Greece, Bulgaria & Romania, for example, put up with their countries being drained of their best & brightest purely for the benefit of wealthier nations & the private profit of big business ........how long will they suffer in poverty in order to help bureaucrats & bankers prop up a failed currency experiment......

It isn’t a failed currency experiment. Countries are still joining. My Romanian mates are happy living in Germany and rejoiced when communism collapsed. Since when does the Eu have a monopoly on bureaucrats and bankers? City of London has more. We are taking on thousands of bureaucrats to see Brexit through and replace EU bureaucracy.

The Eurozone is recovering and, actually, the biggest threats to the economic recovery come from Brexit and Trump’s childish trade war.

clint van damme · Mar 8, 2018

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I have never said it will be amazing, I've never said everyone's life will definitely be better, as per JHFC post, there are things to be positive about. That is not why I am here though as it will end in another 300 pages of arguments. Take note @martcov

My point is, in all of your eyes, Brexit is cancer. Therefore if you go to the doctor and he tells you have it, you can deal with it one of two ways. Try and be positive, accept what's happened and try to make the most of your life. The other option is to moan, get mad, blame everyone else and just generally let a negative attitude make the whole situation worse.

There are parallels between that and all of your behaviour here, yet a disease diagnosis should be considerably worse. I stumble back onto this thread and it is just a constant grumbling set of old mans never-ending rants about something you cannot change. It's happening, and I have barely seen one constructive idea about how we can try to get the most out of this 'so it isn't all so bad'. Not one of you are bothered. It's easier just to moan, complain that there is nothing to be positive about, and jump down the throat of anyone who doesn't conform.

If the country does go to shit then in the future I can imagine the Boris bus won't be the only one that will get talked about. You'll also have the one that got parked by the remainers which basically stopped us having a fair crack at trying to make it work.

Hence why I asked the question, what's worse, Brexit, or constant negativity from remain voters? The answer may well be Brexit itself, but you are certainly close runner ups.

So by your logic you should be positive about remainers negativity!
I can't find anything to be positive about from Brexit so what do you want me to say?
I've asked you on several occasions to name me some positives and you haven't done it, yet you moan that people haven't answered your question!! You're an absolute crackpot.

And this bollocks about making it work, nothing you me, or anyone else outside of the powers that be will have any influence on how this effects the country whether fervently pro or anti EU.

Grendel · Mar 8, 2018

martcov said:
It isn’t a failed currency experiment. Countries are still joining. My Romanian mates are happy living in Germany and rejoiced when communism collapsed. Since when does the Eu have a monopoly on bureaucrats and bankers? City of London has more. We are taking on thousands of bureaucrats to see Brexit through and replace EU bureaucracy.

The Eurozone is recovering and, actually, the biggest threats to the economic recovery come from Brexit and Trump’s childish trade war.

Quoting Romania joining the euro asan example of its success is comedic genius but sadly you actually are being serious.

skybluetony176 · Mar 8, 2018

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Hahaha. What a condescending wanker you are. That really hit a nerve didn't it?

It just goes to show, when you call out remainers on their never-ending negativity towards something that is inevitable, you're in for some more tantrums.

Death is inevitable. Does this mean I shouldn’t be negative about dying?

Ian1779 · Mar 8, 2018

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Hence why I asked the question, what's worse, Brexit, or constant negativity from remain voters? The answer may well be Brexit itself, but you are certainly close runner ups.

What's worse is those brexiteers who believe that because they won they are the only people that can contribute going forward.

Sick Boy · Mar 8, 2018

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
If the country does go to shit then in the future I can imagine the Boris bus won't be the only one that will get talked about. You'll also have the one that got parked by the remainers which basically stopped us having a fair crack at trying to make it work.

Passing the blame on yet again, I see. How about placing some of the blame at the feet of those politicians who told us these would be the easiest negotiations in history and the UK would get whatever it wanted?

jimmyhillsfanclub · Mar 8, 2018

martcov said:
It isn’t a failed currency experiment. Countries are still joining. My Romanian mates are happy living in Germany and rejoiced when communism collapsed. Since when does the Eu have a monopoly on bureaucrats and bankers? City of London has more. We are taking on thousands of bureaucrats to see Brexit through and replace EU bureaucracy.

The Eurozone is recovering and, actually, the biggest threats to the economic recovery come from Brexit and Trump’s childish trade war.

I'm sure the lucky Romanians who have escaped their poverty stricken & corrupt failing nation are happy........try focusing on all the Romanians stuck in Romania......you know, the ones whos taxes help educate & fund the doctors, engineers & architects....who then promptly up sticks & fuck off to ply their trade....or more likely drive a van.....in the UK or Germany.....

If the Euro isn't a failed experiment, then ask yourself why the more prosperous, secure & progressive nations like Denmark & Sweden want fuck all to do with it.......yet poor corrupt nations like Bulgaria & Romania are just waiting for the nod to join......once the mandarins have fudged the criteria yet again obviously.......all this despite their own populations generally being against such madness.

clint van damme · Mar 8, 2018

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
I'm sure the lucky Romanians who have escaped their poverty stricken & corrupt failing nation are happy........try focusing on all the Romanians stuck in Romania......you know, the ones whos taxes help educate & fund the doctors, engineers & architects....who then promptly up sticks & fuck off to ply their trade....or more likely drive a van.....in the UK or Germany.....

If the Euro isn't a failed experiment, then ask yourself why the more prosperous, secure & progressive nations like Denmark & Sweden want fuck all to do with it.......yet poor corrupt nations like Bulgaria & Romania are just waiting for the nod to join......once the mandarins have fudged the criteria yet again obviously.......all this despite their own populations generally being against such madness.

The talent drain from poor countries isn't a problem particular to the EU though, it's a worldwide issue.
We take NHS staff into the NHS from poor African countries and it costs them a fortune. Do you honestly think this government is going to invest in training the indigenous population in the professions you've listed or put measures in place to enable people to train in those fields? It's something I'd love to see but this government has no intention in investing in or maximising the potential of the general population.

Grendel · Mar 8, 2018

shmmeee said:
Uh Brexit itself.

I didn’t crash the value of the pound mate. And it won’t be me that shrinks our economy.

The fact you even think that’s a sensible question suggests you probably shouldn’t be allowed to make big decisions.

The comment on crashing the pound is simply bizarre.

You do realise the whiole point of the euro is that it does exactly that for its principal benefactor - germany? Germany exports beyond all normal expectation and it does it precisely because its working with a devalued currency. It’s allowed then free tariff trade across the whole of Europe which it can achieve with a fixed exchange effectively. Normally it would experience rapid currency increase but it gets the best of both worlds

One positive impact here has been the pound devaluation as it improved our competitiveness and export margins.

You really have to think beyond the price of a beer in Benidorm to understand impacts of currency fluctuations.

skybluetony176 · Mar 8, 2018

Grendel said:
The comment on crashing the pound is simply bizarre.

You do realise the whiole point of the euro is that it does exactly that for its principal benefactor - germany? Germany exports beyond all normal expectation and it does it precisely because its working with a devalued currency. It’s allowed then free tariff trade across the whole of Europe which it can achieve with a fixed exchange effectively. Normally it would experience rapid currency increase but it gets the best of both worlds

One positive impact here has been the pound devaluation as it improved our competitiveness and export margins.

You really have to think beyond the price of a beer in Benidorm to understand impacts of currency fluctuations.

Sounds like you’re saying that we should join the Euro. Personally I would never have entertained the idea but you’ve sold it to me.

Grendel · Mar 8, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Sounds like you’re saying that we should join the Euro. Personally I would never have entertained the idea but you’ve sold it to me.

Er no because Germany have huge trading advantages in the EU and their exports exceed £400 billion - I think ours is around half that. It in effect controls the European banks and operates a negative interest policy.

It is a typical example of the way Europe operates. It’s chief controller in Germany reaps significant benefits from the fiscal policy and at the same time allows basket case economies to prop themselves up on subvented borrowing rates.

Countries that end up getting a pounding are the middle ground who can’t compete with German dominance and at the same time prop up joke economies who subscribe to the currency.

martcov · Mar 8, 2018

Grendel said:
The comment on crashing the pound is simply bizarre.

You do realise the whiole point of the euro is that it does exactly that for its principal benefactor - germany? Germany exports beyond all normal expectation and it does it precisely because its working with a devalued currency. It’s allowed then free tariff trade across the whole of Europe which it can achieve with a fixed exchange effectively. Normally it would experience rapid currency increase but it gets the best of both worlds

One positive impact here has been the pound devaluation as it improved our competitiveness and export margins.

You really have to think beyond the price of a beer in Benidorm to understand impacts of currency fluctuations.

Germany exports high quality goods.

The devaluation of the pound is a two edged sword. Yes initially our export goods are cheaper, but if we need to import materials or parts priced in Euro, then the advantage is soon lost.

Grendel · Mar 8, 2018

martcov said:
Germany exports high quality goods.

The devaluation of the pound is a two edged sword. Yes initially our export goods are cheaper, but if we need to import materials or parts priced in Euro, then the advantage is soon lost.

Hasn’t been lost for Germany. As usual you talk absolute shite. Practically every economist article you read on the euro acknowledges it’s designed specifically to allow Germany its cake and eat it.

martcov · Mar 8, 2018

Grendel said:
Hasn’t been lost for Germany. As usual you talk absolute shite. Practically every economist article you read on the euro acknowledges it’s designed specifically to allow Germany its cake and eat it.

Funny that others say that the weaker countries wanted to be aligned to the Mark ( 66% of the euro ) through the Euro. The demand to join is high because of the strength of the Euro. Not many weaker countries want their currency to end up like the Bolivari. Denmark is linked to the Euro and has been for years... although they are not in it. If the Euro is so bad why doesn’t Denmark break away and devalue its currency?

Grendel · Mar 8, 2018

martcov said:
Funny that others say that the weaker countries wanted to be aligned to the Mark ( 66% of the euro ) through the Euro. The demand to join is high because of the strength of the Euro. Not many weaker countries want their currency to end up like the Bolivari. Denmark is linked to the Euro and has been for years... although they are not in it. If the Euro is so bad why doesn’t Denmark break away and devalue its currency?

You don’t understand a word I’m saying do you?

martcov · Mar 8, 2018

Grendel said:
You don’t understand a word I’m saying do you?

I think you are trying to twist facts to suit your viewpoint.

martcov · Mar 8, 2018

Grendel said:
You don’t understand a word I’m saying do you?

If it is that easy, why didn’t the UK just devalue the pound?

Sick Boy · Mar 8, 2018

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
I'm sure the lucky Romanians who have escaped their poverty stricken & corrupt failing nation are happy........try focusing on all the Romanians stuck in Romania......you know, the ones whos taxes help educate & fund the doctors, engineers & architects....who then promptly up sticks & fuck off to ply their trade....or more likely drive a van.....in the UK or Germany.....

If the Euro isn't a failed experiment, then ask yourself why the more prosperous, secure & progressive nations like Denmark & Sweden want fuck all to do with it.......yet poor corrupt nations like Bulgaria & Romania are just waiting for the nod to join......once the mandarins have fudged the criteria yet again obviously.......all this despite their own populations generally being against such madness.

Isn't Poland where the economy has picked up in recent years and many Poles are returning to the country and more are stayig there? I'm not sure this would have been possible for them if they hadn't been part of the EU. Same as Ireland, mass emigration has come down and the country is a lot richer than previously.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (12 Viewers)

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