The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (21 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · Dec 31, 2020

shmmeee said:
It’s a total fantasy that anyone upset with Brexit is going to blame Kier Starmer FFS.

I have to say shmmeee but that’s a little naive. For the last four and a half years a number of brexiteers from auntie Doris on Facebook to sitting MP’s are blaming everyone but those who voted for it for Brexit not unfolding how it was promised during the campaign. There’s huge numbers of people claiming on one hand that they know what they voted for and then blaming everyone else on the other when what they voted for doesn’t turn out to be what they voted for. I’d say there’s every chance Starmer will cop a proportion of blame from a proportion of society.

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
I have to say shmmeee nut that’s a little naive. For the last four and a half years a number of brexiteers from auntie Doris on Facebook to sitting MP’s are blaming everyone but those who voted for it for Brexit not unfolding how it was promised during the campaign. There’s huge numbers of people claiming on one hand that they know what they voted for and then blaming everyone else on the other when what they voted for doesn’t turn out to be what they voted for. I’d say there’s every chance Starmer will cop a proportion of blame from a proportion of society.

he might do, but if he'd gone against this deal then it would have definitely been used against him.
There's been enough sabre rattling and rhetoric from the tories over the last few days that any decent politician will be able to use to hold them accountable. He just needs to make sure he does so and stop enabling them which is all he's done up to now.

skybluetony176 · Dec 31, 2020

clint van damme said:
he might do, but if he'd gone against this deal then it would have definitely been used against him.
There's been enough sabre rattling and rhetoric from the tories over the last few days that any decent politician will be able to use to hold them accountable. He just needs to make sure he does so and stop enabling them which is all he's done up to now.

He was undoubtedly between a rock an a hard place but then if he had have abstained saying that this is for the Tories to own by the next time the general election comes around he might actually be sitting a lot more comfortably than he will be by having voted for the mess. Some votes don’t age well, look at the Iraq war, very few MP’s came out of that shining. Look at the blame he gets regarding Jimmy Savile from certain quarters, it’s all Starmers fault, the fact that he was most prolific during the Tories reign, they courted him, he spent Xmas with the Thatchers, was given a job running a hospital by them, they campaigned for his knighthood, most of the investigations were dropped under their watch etc. it’s still all Starmers fault.

Ian1779 · Dec 31, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
Look at the blame he gets regarding Jimmy Savile from certain quarters, it’s all Starmers fault, the fact that he was most prolific during the Tories reign, they courted him, he spent Xmas with the Thatchers, was given a job running a hospital by them, they campaigned for his knighthood, most of the investigations were dropped under their watch etc. it’s still all Starmers fault.

This will come up in the future no doubt and the vitriol that goes with it will be loud. To quote shmmeee’s ‘fund the NHS, hang the paedos’ - this is exactly what they will go after Starmer about - how is he going to respond to that?

skybluetony176 · Dec 31, 2020

Ian1779 said:
This will come up in the future no doubt and the vitriol that goes with it will be loud. To quote shmmeee’s ‘fund the NHS, hang the paedos’ - this is exactly what they will go after Starmer about - how is he going to respond to that?

Fact is he should have been locked up long before Starmer was involved in the CPS and the Tories are not only complicit in that not happening they also handed him opportunity to abuse. Yet you won’t find a shortage of people already blaming Starmer under the pretence that every case the CPS handled came across his desk (Which clearly never happened) while copping a deaf one on the Tories direct involvement.

shmmeee · Dec 31, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
I have to say shmmeee but that’s a little naive. For the last four and a half years a number of brexiteers from auntie Doris on Facebook to sitting MP’s are blaming everyone but those who voted for it for Brexit not unfolding how it was promised during the campaign. There’s huge numbers of people claiming on one hand that they know what they voted for and then blaming everyone else on the other when what they voted for doesn’t turn out to be what they voted for. I’d say there’s every chance Starmer will cop a proportion of blame from a proportion of society.

Nah. He’ll get weirdo Corbynites who hold a grudge and weirdo Brexiters who hold a grudge, both of which are tiny proportions of the electorate. Generally speaking he’s doing what the vast majority of his voters and the public want him to do. This is classic “Twitter isn’t real life” stuff.

Ian1779 · Dec 31, 2020

shmmeee said:
Nah. He’ll get weirdo Corbynites who hold a grudge and weirdo Brexiters who hold a grudge, both of which are tiny proportions of the electorate. Generally speaking he’s doing what the vast majority of his voters and the public want him to do. This is classic “Twitter isn’t real life” stuff.

It’ll be the Daily Mailers that will get all fired up when the headlines get rolled out. It won’t be the Corbynites as you say - they have enough reasons not to love him, but they at least know not to pander to lies.

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2020

Ian1779 said:
This will come up in the future no doubt and the vitriol that goes with it will be loud. To quote shmmeee’s ‘fund the NHS, hang the paedos’ - this is exactly what they will go after Starmer about - how is he going to respond to that?

I don't think they will to be honest.
There has been some dodgy shit went on in Islington social care under Corbyns watch yet for all the shit they threw at him they never brought that up.

I think it's a can of worms none of them want to open.
I've seen a few try to kick off the starmer/Savile thing but it's never gained traction.

Ian1779 · Dec 31, 2020

clint van damme said:
I don't think they will to be honest.
There has been some dodgy shit went on in Islington social care under Corbyns watch yet for all the shit they threw at him they never brought that up.

I think it's a can of worms none of them want to open.
I've seen a few try to kick off the starmer/Savile thing but it's never gained traction.

IIRC the Islington social care stuff was under the watch of a certain Margaret Hodge - might explain why it never got aired.

I do hope it doesn’t gain traction for Starmer - of the things you can criticise him for, these lies and slander is not one of them.

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2020

Ian1779 said:
IIRC the Islington social care stuff was under the watch of a certain Margaret Hodge - might explain why it never got aired.

I do hope it doesn’t gain traction for Starmer - of the things you can criticise him for, these lies and slander is not one of them.

You're right about Hodge but it would have still been more credible trying to make some of that mud stick than stories about Czech spies and other such nonsense.

But then it might of shone a light on May who recieved several dossiers related to abuse but lost more files than an absent minded manacurist

skybluetony176 · Dec 31, 2020

Still. At least Boris’ dad has every faith in him regards Brexit British PM Johnson's father applying for French citizenship

David O'Day · Dec 31, 2020

Why do people seem to think vote for a terrible deal in a terrible deal vs. no deal is a bad look for Keir Starmer?

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2020

shmmeee said:
Nah. He’ll get weirdo Corbynites who hold a grudge and weirdo Brexiters who hold a grudge, both of which are tiny proportions of the electorate. Generally speaking he’s doing what the vast majority of his voters and the public want him to do. This is classic “Twitter isn’t real life” stuff.

I think he's got more on his plate with the FBPE lot at the moment. You know the ones who told the left all turning on the leader does is enable the Tories- they've turned on the leader!

stupot07 · Dec 31, 2020

Boris Johnson's dad Stanley is applying for a French passport after Brexit

If he's successful, the 80-year-old dad of the Prime Minister will be able to enjoy many rights that are being denied to other Brits from 11pm tonight

www.mirror.co.uk

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2020

Gibraltar joins Schengen. Border checks for Brits.
Taking back control.

stupot07 · Dec 31, 2020

We have our country back..

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Astute · Dec 31, 2020

clint van damme said:
Gibraltar joins Schengen. Border checks for Brits.
Taking back control.

So what you are saying is nothing has changed

Isn't it strange how points being made make the truth sound differently. We have always had to show our passports.

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2020

Astute said:
So what you are saying is nothing has changed

Isn't it strange how points being made make the truth sound differently. We have always had to show our passports.

didn't know that about the passports, but somethings changed hasn't it, Gibraltar will be in the schengen area and it's ties with the UK will be loosened.

Grendel · Dec 31, 2020

clint van damme said:
didn't know that about the passports, but somethings changed hasn't it, Gibraltar will be in the schengen area and it's ties with the UK will be loosened.

Try getting in and out of Gilbrater without a passport - it’s always been a pain from my experience there - admittedly some years ago . Also as ever the Spanish are just trying to make up their own rules and nothing seems to have been agreed

I’m amazed that you believe in the final elements of British colonialism

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2020

Grendel said:
Try getting in and out of Gilbrater without a passport - it’s always been a pain from my experience there - admittedly some years ago . Also as ever the Spanish are just trying to make up their own rules and nothing seems to have been agreed

I’m amazed that you believe in the final elements of British colonialism

I thought this was all about taking back control?
EU citizens will now be able to walk in and out of Gibraltar but UK citizens will need to get a stamp.
There will be custom checks between Britain and NI as well, I'm fairly sure this isn't what was sold to people.

Grendel · Dec 31, 2020

clint van damme said:
I thought this was all about taking back control?
EU citizens will now be able to walk in and out of Gibraltar but UK citizens will need to get a stamp.
There will be custom checks between Britain and NI as well, I'm fairly sure this isn't what was sold to people.

Spanish authorities have always hindered access in and out and given the Spanish preferential treatment and who outside of gilbrater (a pretty grim place) cared when voting anyway?

Astute · Dec 31, 2020

clint van damme said:
didn't know that about the passports, but somethings changed hasn't it, Gibraltar will be in the schengen area and it's ties with the UK will be loosened.

Why will they be loosened?

15,000 a day come from Spain to go to work. 96% voted remain and even more voted to stay a part of the UK.

It has happened. We now need to work out the best way of continuing with life. What they have now is what they had before. It is just worded differently and will be policed differently.

But of course both sides of the fence who are not interested in looking for solutions will continue to use it for needless point scoring. Just like has happened for over 4 years now.

Astute · Dec 31, 2020

clint van damme said:
I thought this was all about taking back control?
EU citizens will now be able to walk in and out of Gibraltar but UK citizens will need to get a stamp.
There will be custom checks between Britain and NI as well, I'm fairly sure this isn't what was sold to people.

And again.......they were able to go the same before and we had to show our passports.

Point scoring or don't you know the details on what you are lecturing on.

skybluetony176 · Dec 31, 2020

clint van damme said:
I thought this was all about taking back control?
EU citizens will now be able to walk in and out of Gibraltar but UK citizens will need to get a stamp.
There will be custom checks between Britain and NI as well, I'm fairly sure this isn't what was sold to people.

EU customs officers also now policing the movement of goods in the U.K. too. That’s a huge chunk of sovereignty handed over right there and something that didn’t happen while we were in the EU.

SBAndy · Dec 31, 2020

Astute said:
And again.......they were able to go the same before and we had to show our passports.

Point scoring or don't you know the details on what you are lecturing on.

When you say this is the same as before, they (other EU citizens) could walk in and out, whilst we had to show passports, how exactly did they differentiate between EU and Brit arrivals? Or are you meaning via different travel methods?

Genuine questions by the way, not trying to catch you out or anything.

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 31, 2020

Sick Boy said:
In reality it’s very much in the EU’s favour and gives zero tariff access to the UK for import and exports on goods.

How anyone can describe it as not that bad for Britain when the Services industry is not included.

Not sure the threat of no deal was ever real, the transition could have been extended. It’s been done to get it rushed through with minimal scrutiny.

Services is one of the areas the EU hasn’t managed to create a frictionless single market itself. Service don’t also don’t attract duties in the same way other goods do. So the impact of Brexit on services is more limited than you’d probably think.

Personally, I’d rather us stay in the EU. However, if you’re going to do Brexit, you should break away from the EU’s legislative and regulatory orbit otherwise it defeats the purpose of leaving the EU. Otherwise, you’re leaving an organisation whilst remaining shackled to their rules and regulations without having the representation to influence their rules e.g. Norway and Turkey. Both Norway and Switzerland pay for access to the single market.

A soft Brexit is only good in a phased transition of leaving the EU, not the best long term solution. For example, remaining in a customs union, you can’t really have an independent trade policy. Whilst there’d be less disruption than the current arrangement, we’d be totally dependent on EU trade with no representation and less influence than inside the EU.

I appreciate that my views are quite nuanced. I’m a Remainer, but overall, this deal is reasonable as it achieves the goals of the Leave campaign.

Astute · Dec 31, 2020

SBAndy said:
When you say this is the same as before, they (other EU citizens) could walk in and out, whilst we had to show passports, how exactly did they differentiate between EU and Brit arrivals? Or are you meaning via different travel methods?

Genuine questions by the way, not trying to catch you out or anything.

Arrivals from the UK have always had to show passports. But the rest has always been a problem for years. Most problems caused by whoever runs Spain at the time. And those in charge of the EU have always sided with the Spanish although they are supposed to be neutral. Now Spain will see it as a chance of taking control of Gibraltar.

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2020

Astute said:
And again.......they were able to go the same before and we had to show our passports.

Point scoring or don't you know the details on what you are lecturing on.

I'm not lecturing am I? Wind your neck in.

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
EU customs officers also now policing the movement of goods in the U.K. too. That’s a huge chunk of sovereignty handed over right there and something that didn’t happen while we were in the U.K.

I just don't understand it, it seems contrary to what this was all supposed to be about.

Astute · Dec 31, 2020

clint van damme said:
I'm not lecturing am I? Wind your neck in.

You came out with your normal comments without knowing the facts then tell me to wind my neck in. Nothing unusual there.

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2020

Astute said:
You came out with your normal comments without knowing the facts then tell me to wind my neck in. Nothing unusual there.

I'm telling you to wind your neck in because of the term you used, lecturing. A post consisting of a few dozen words is hardly a lecture.
And I held my hands up and said I got the passport thing wrong.
Remember when you got your facts wrong on the covid thread and rather than admit it you flounced off this board for months?

Astute · Dec 31, 2020

clint van damme said:
I'm telling you to wind your neck in because of the term you used, lecturing. A post consisting of a few dozen words is hardly a lecture.
And I held my hands up and said I got the passport thing wrong.
Remember when you got your facts wrong on the covid thread and rather than admit it you flounced off this board for months?

What facts were they?

Flounced off? Here we go again. I'd had enough of the constant personal attacks. Idiots hiding behind a keyboard making constant points scoring comments.

I now don't have the spare time I did. And isn't it strange how I have called nearly everything right including the last minute deal for the last few years that got rubbished until the very end by the same back patters yet stories are still being made up. And I am made out to be a leaver although I have more to lose than most. How about me being anti Labour because I could see the disaster coming with Corbyn in charge.

Yet those like yourself keep getting it wrong but continue to get congratulations from those similar to yourself.

Grendel · Dec 31, 2020

Well this should be more entertaining than Moira Anderson

clint van damme · Dec 31, 2020

Astute said:
What facts were they?

Flounced off? Here we go again. I'd had enough of the constant personal attacks. Idiots hiding behind a keyboard making constant points scoring comments.

I now don't have the spare time I did. And isn't it strange how I have called nearly everything right including the last minute deal for the last few years that got rubbished until the very end by the same back patters yet stories are still being made up. And I am made out to be a leaver although I have more to lose than most. How about me being anti Labour because I could see the disaster coming with Corbyn in charge.

Yet those like yourself keep getting it wrong but continue to get congratulations from those similar to yourself.

more Astute revisionism. I'll let you have the last word, I've better things to do tonight. Enjoy New Year.

Astute · Dec 31, 2020

clint van damme said:
more Astute revisionism. I'll let you have the last word, I've better things to do tonight. Enjoy New Year.

Exactly.

So which part was wrong? Which part would you like to change?

Happy new year

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